Tragedy at Auto Auction

[Pomeroy41144]

Three people were killed by SUV at auto auction.

 

 

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/05/03/billerica-car-auction-crash-lynnway-auto-auction/?ftag=MSF0951a18

[TerryB]

That is a terrible tragedy, what an awful thing to happen to so many people.

Terry

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I suppose that we all imagine that we would have the presence of mind to turn off the ignition or put the car in neutral in such a case. Hopefully people do just that most of the time, but we only hear about the tragedies like this one.

[Guest]

To my knowledge no driver education before being tested includes any type of emergency preparedness.  I don't think any jurisdiction tests for any thing like when driver testing.

One thing all groups/organizations having events with vehicles and cars where the cars are driven through crowds or buildings could simply have barricades set up so there would be a slalom to be driven through on entering and exiting.  It could be a simple as having two or three cars parked diagonally so that the vehicles had to zigzag through them.

[60FlatTop]

The lot jockey was a guy in his 70's. It reminded me of the last time I went to court for a speeding ticket. a 70+ retired cop was manning the metal detector in uniform. He told me to raise my arms. Then he picked up a 1 foot ruler from the counter and waved it around my body. When he noticed how I was looking at him he set it down and picked up the metal detector wand. The guy was wearing a gun!

 

You know, some things can be prevented.

Bernie

[Grimy]

24 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

The lot jockey was a guy in his 70's. It reminded me of the last time I went to court for a speeding ticket

Bernie, lighten up on your disrespect of your elders, you late-60s young scofflaw whippersnapper!

[Guest SaddleRider]

What's the point about the driver "being in his 70's"....?     How is that relevant absent info. as to medical history ?    I am in my 70's...wonder how many of you think you could out-drive or out-fly me ?   

 

A possible cause of this tragedy on the part of the driver ?         I am interested in the psychological problem of PANIC!  When things go wrong - take an unexpected turn,  some folks will PANIC.   Would further  or more complete  technical training before you get a driver's license help ?

 

How many of you know that no production automobile or truck is capable of over-powering its brakes.   Certain laws of physics and math make it impossible.   Engine "runs away".....?   Cant figure out how to shut the ignition off ?   STOMP ON THE DAMN BRAKES !

[JFranklin]

Maybe a computer hack? I have heard it is possible on some cars.

[plymouthcranbrook]

My son sent me this link yesterday. Apparently he works next door. Sad tale for sure.

[60FlatTop]

50 minutes ago, Grimy said:

you late-60s young scofflaw

 

Begorrah! It's genetic.

[Grimy]

20 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Begorrah! It's genetic.

Like the well-known Irish driving abilities...  I'm ~90% English :-)  

[mike6024]

So it was an employee of the auction; which makes the company totally liable.

 

Ryan did not release the name of the driver, a man in his 70's who she said is an employee at LynnWay Auto. Only employees, Ryan said, are permitted to drive vehicles at auto actions on site. The driver was not hospitalized after the incident.

Witnesses told Fox 25 the driver had a medical emergency and shot through the building, only stopping when the Jeep crashed through a cement wall.

"He went through the door, went through the lane of people, and then through the building," one witness told the station. "He was going fast, he was going really fast," said the witness.

 

Or it could have been this : http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/05/03/billerica-lynnway-auto-auction-fatal-crash-violations/

 

There are also questions about whether there was some sort of mechanical failure with the 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Auto safety expert Sean Kane researched complaints filed with NHTSA and found 226 incidents alleging unintended acceleration in 2005-2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Commander vehicles.

“It’s been a consistent model with unintended acceleration events,” Kane said.

In 2006, leaders in Connecticut urged federal regulators to probe possible acceleration flaws in Jeep Grand Cherokees after a 52-year-old man was run over and killed by one in a car wash.

Edited May 4, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

The company may not be liable if it was truly a medical emergency that nobody could have predicted (clean bill of health).

[mike6024]

Sounds more like the typical stepped on the gas instead of the brake nonsense.

[JACK M]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:31 AM, SaddleRider said:

 

 

How many of you know that no production automobile or truck is capable of over-powering its brakes.   Certain laws of physics and math make it impossible.   Engine "runs away".....?   Cant figure out how to shut the ignition off ?   STOMP ON THE DAMN BRAKES !

I have a hard time agreeing with this as I have driven a few cars that would easily out power their brakes.

Although you did say production car or truck making it more plausible.

But I would think that if the vehicle is in a lower gear that it could indeed have enough power to do that. especially if it already has momentum.

Still curious though, Is that a government mandate?

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

I have a hard time agreeing with this as I have driven a few cars that would easily out power their brakes.

Although you did say production car or truck making it more plausible.

But I would think that if the vehicle is in a lower gear that it could indeed have enough power to do that. especially if it already has momentum.

Still curious though, Is that a government mandate?

 

There may have been cars in the 1960s with high horsepower big blocks that could overpower their feeble manual drum brakes, but pretty much any car built since the early 1970s will stop at full throttle if you press on the brakes hard enough.  This has been demonstrated time and again every time a supposed "unintended" acceleration incident comes up.  It has also been demonstrated (frequently by onboard observations) that despite the fact that a driver swears up and down that the car accelerated on it's own, the reality is that the driver pressed the gas instead of the brake, and since the driver thinks he/she is already pressing the brake, they continue to press harder on the gas.

 

By the way, shifting into neutral works to stop the car also. 

 

The problem is that most drivers absolutely SUCK at dealing with any situation that isn't completely normal.  I don't know how many times I've been told by someone that their steering "locked up" when the belt came off the PS pump, or that their brakes "wouldn't work" if the vac hose blew off the booster.  The problem is that driver ed and licensing in this country is less than worthless and people just panic and freeze if anything out of the ordinary happens. 

[billorn]

One my neighbors sold his Audi back in the day when they were having the unexpected acceleration problem because he was scared of it happening to him. I think nothing ever came from it but Audis reputation was pretty smeared. Personally I dont think its anything but someone standing on the wrong pedal. What else could it be??? I agree that there arent many cars that can use their engines to overpower the breaks especailly at low speeds. Sometimes you see kids doing it by flooring the gas and the brake at the same time and only the rear tires spin but the car doesnt move. I bet the old guy driving the Jeep his brain was saying BRAKES BRAKES BRAKES!!! and his leg was saying I AM I AM I AM!!! and his mouth was saying OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP!!!! Mean while his foot was hard on the gas the whole time.

[JACK M]

I can personally attest that people do in fact freeze up in a panic situation.

I remember well when I first started racing, (I don't remember much about those decades) the first time I realized that I dove in over my head I floored not only the brakes but the throttle at the same time. It is a clear memory as it was my first of many crashes on the track. All the rest of them were someone else's fault.  LOL.

This guy decided to park on top of me. The part you cant see in this pic is all the junk piled up in front of us. I braked to avoid, this guy launched off of the guy that stopped behind me and I got humped.

Note broken suspension on his RF.

 

Fun stuff ?

By the way, these cars will indeed out power their own brakes.

The problem is with the helmets, they cover up your brains.

[Larry Schramm]

Well if it is a car built in the last 10-15 years part of the investigation will be to down load the data on the "black box"  It will tell exactly what the driver was doing.  The only obstacle is a subpoena may be required to access the data.  There is a lot of discussion on privacy concerns of the data on the black box. 

 

Some of the car actually have that capability going back to about 1990 and earlier.

[drwatson]

1 hour ago, billorn said:

One my neighbors sold his Audi back in the day when they were having the unexpected acceleration problem because he was scared of it happening to him. I think nothing ever came from it but Audis reputation was pretty smeared. Personally I dont think its anything but someone standing on the wrong pedal. What else could it be??? I agree that there arent many cars that can use their engines to overpower the breaks especailly at low speeds. Sometimes you see kids doing it by flooring the gas and the brake at the same time and only the rear tires spin but the car doesnt move. I bet the old guy driving the Jeep his brain was saying BRAKES BRAKES BRAKES!!! and his leg was saying I AM I AM I AM!!! and his mouth was saying OH CRAP OH CRAP OH CRAP!!!! Mean while his foot was hard on the gas the whole time.

The look on the drivers face right after the tragic episode was as if he was waiting for the bidding to start.  ????

Edited May 5, 2017 by drwatson (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Well if it is a car built in the last 10-15 years part of the investigation will be to down load the data on the "black box"  It will tell exactly what the driver was doing.  The only obstacle is a subpoena may be required to access the data.  There is a lot of discussion on privacy concerns of the data on the black box. 

 

Some of the car actually have that capability going back to about 1990 and earlier.

Sadly, this is true.  And you are right, about older cars also.  Typically cars with airbags in the early 1990s incorporated a rudimentary data recorder in the air bag module.  It only recorded the five seconds prior to airbag deployment, however.  My 1993 Allante had such a recorder.

[Digger914]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, SaddleRider said:

What's the point about the driver "being in his 70's"....?     How is that relevant absent info. as to medical history ?    I am in my 70's...wonder how many of you think you could out-drive or out-fly me ?   

 

A possible cause of this tragedy on the part of the driver ?         I am interested in the psychological problem of PANIC!  When things go wrong - take an unexpected turn,  some folks will PANIC.   Would further  or more complete  technical training before you get a driver's license help ?

 

How many of you know that no production automobile or truck is capable of over-powering its brakes.   Certain laws of physics and math make it impossible.   Engine "runs away".....?   Cant figure out how to shut the ignition off ?   STOMP ON THE DAMN BRAKES !

 

Cars aren't built the way they used to be. The newer the car, the less likely it will have a throttle cable and the more likely it will have computer controlled breaking. With a new car, how fast and hard you stomp on the gas or brakes might not make a bit if difference, the cars computer decides how it's going to fuel the engine and how much breaking pressure is applied to the wheels. The newer the car, the more likely it is that the transmission is electronically controlled and the shift lever only moves a switch that sends a signal to the computer. Newer cars don't all come with keys, mine came with a big fat battery powered fob. Key or fob, sometimes shutting the ignition off when the computer goes crazy means opening the hood and pulling a fuse. For the past decade cars have come  and run on CAN (computer aided network) even the headlights are run through at least one computer and if the computer wants your lights on, your headlight switch won't turn them off.

 

At 70+ years old I imagine that this man has had a sticky throttle linkage or two over the years, maybe even a busted brake line or two and if he wasn't the problem he would have done all the normal things that would be hard enough to do in a car that you are use to driving everyday. When your brakes fail in traffic how fast can you get to the emergency brake and how quick can you stop. If the car did go crazy on him, putting it into the wall might have been the first available stop. Time will tell.

 

All that said., when my neighbor parked her uncles Cadillac Escalade in my living room, it was plain and simple panic. Her uncle was teaching her to drive, she turned the corner way to tight, jumped the curb and when her uncle yelled hit the brakes she hit the gas.

[Guest SaddleRider]

Digger is PARTIALLY correct that the GAS pedal is no longer directly, mechanically linked to a vehicle's fuel induction system.

 

He is incorrect about brakes.   In that respect, nothing has changed since the introduction of hydraulic brakes in the mid to late 1930's - in that all legally produced hydraulic brake equipped vehicles for sale in the United States MUST have a brake pedal mechanically linked to the master cylinder.

 

In the tragedy that started this "thread",  my recollection is that the vehicle was a modern production vehicle,  certainly not some exotic "Indy type" racer.    If that is correct,  sounds like we are back at the "panic" situation ( or some sudden physical disability ) .   As others have noted, the vehicle's "black box" will resolve the question.

[Frank DuVal]

Introduction of hydraulic brakes was 20s , Lockheed system. Ford was the late 30s introduction of hydraulics on their cars. 

 

Otherwise, I agree. hard connection to master from pedal. Steering wheel also has to connect mechanically to wheels on ground.

 

With standard power brakes, you loose vacuum at full throttle. Once the vacuum reservoir (accumulator) is drained, pedal effort increases dramatically.

[mike6024]

No-one has updated this thread. A FIFTH person has died. Quite a death toll.

 

A Methuen resident who was injured during the Lynnway Auto Auction crash on May 3 has died, making him the fifth victim to succumb to injuries suffered during the deadly crash, according to a statement released by the office of Middlesex District Attorney Marian Ryan.

 

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/05/methuen_man_5th_victim_from_ly.html

 

The Lynnway Auto Auction employee, who was driving a Jeep when it struck and killed three people inside the business Wednesday, claims the vehicle was defective.

The 76-year-old man told Boston 25 News that the vehicle just began to accelerate when he was driving it in the building so it could be displayed during a regular auction inside the Billerica business.

 

The Jeep driver told Boston 25 News that he was driving slowly into the building. The business has several driving lanes for vehicles and safety lanes where people view the cars for sale.

"Then all of a sudden, the car by itself, just took off...somehow it just accelerated," the driver told Boston 25 News. 

 

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/05/driver_in_lynnway_auto_auction.html

 

"Defective car that took off all by itself," he explained. "I put it in drive and something in the car accelerated out of control — it took a fraction of a second."

 

FWIW I'm not buying it.

Edited May 18, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

"Defective car that took off all by itself," he explained. "I put it in drive and something in the car accelerated out of control — it took a fraction of a second."

 

Here we go again...

 

I'm sure a jury will believe it, unfortunately.

[mike6024]

Here is a video of the driver giving an interview.

 

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Driver-in-Fatal-Auto-Auction-Crash-Had-Suspended-License-421479283.html

Edited May 18, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[benjamin j]

I have had throttles stick on cars and motorcycles. I have been able to shut down or shift or pull in on the clutch every time so far but I am not 76 years old. being in a strange vehicle can also through some people off their game.