Engine Startup

[Taylormade]

Getting ready to start my rebuilt engine for the first time - a 1932 Dodge Brothers six.  I have the plugs out and have cranked the motor over a few times in five second bursts.  Everything seems to be working okay - no unusual sounds, grinding metal or catastrophic failures.  I currently have no oil pressure gauge hooked up, but the connecting line is attached to the oil output.  So - do I need to have the gauge attached to get any pressure out of the line, or should oil start squirting out of the line as soon as the pump is primed and pumping oil?  Currently, nothing is coming out.  I have turned it over four times in five second bursts.  I don't want to damage anything, but I obviously would like to confirm that oil is circulating before I attempt the actual start up.  How long does it usually take for a fresh motor to oil up?

 

 

[edinmass]

If you used assembly lube, just fill it with oil and fire it off. We use an oil pressure pot, but it's not necessary. Just be sure you have a guage hooked up and see pressure in several seconds. It can run for five minutes without damage on assembly lube. Ed

[Guest]

I don't know the specific design of your engine. What I always do is prelube the engine until I read oil pressure PRIOR to cranking it at all. If the oil pump in your engine is driven by the distributor shaft, you can yank the distributor out and turn the oil pump ( in the direction of normal distributor rotation) by making a tool out of either a spare distributor or distributor shaft ( if the distributor shaft mates directly with the oil pump) with the camshaft gear removed from it, or from a spare intermediate shaft if an intermediate shaft is used between the distributor and the oil pump on your engine. You can turn this homemade tool (and thus the oil pump only) with a drill motor. There are priming tools on the market for most modern V8's that are used this way, and I have made several through the years to prelube antique engines. There is an intermediate oil pump shaft with the gear removed in my tool box now that I used on my 31 Cadillac V8.

 There are also pressure lube systems on the market that can be connected via lines to an engine to pump oil through the oil system. Hopefully, assembly lube was used to coat your main and camshaft bearings, etc. I don't ever crank them over until I show oil pressure via the method described above. Looks like a nice restoration in progress!

Edited April 13, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Yes , if your pump is primed you should see oil coming out the gauge line while cranking with the plugs out. The gauge line is actually a very handy priming port. What priming procedures did you use ? Sometimes packing the pump with Vaseline on assembly ? But don't worry , prime GENEROUSLY through the line until you get a flow back out of it. Now , ahhh...... I have used a handy turkey baster properly adapted to the purpose in a moment of need. And yes , Sandy got a new one out of the deal. Beautiful work you are doing ! And a wonderful history to your project ! I have enjoyed the "armchair restorers" experience very much. Along  with all the rest of the guys and gals here , I look forward to taking an "armchair cruise" with you. Thank you very much for taking so much time to share !   - Carl

[F&J]

50 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Yes , if your pump is primed you should see oil coming out the gauge line while cranking with the plugs out. The gauge line is actually a very handy priming port.  ...

 

..., prime GENEROUSLY through the line until you get a flow back out of it.

 

The above should work, and being that the gauge line is now somewhat full after priming, oil should come out of that line VERY soon while cranking with spark plugs out. 

 

If you prime this way, and after several attempts of cranking for 30 sec and have no oil coming out the gauge line after repriming several times, you may have another problem.  I went through this with a 18 Studebaker not run since ww2.   The oil pump secondary gear had rusted stuck and broke two teeth a long time ago.  I primed it like was said quite a few times before I knew I had to pull the external pump apart for inspection.

 

In many types of engines, you can actually hear the starter motor slow down as soon as the pump builds some pressure.  (That would be if you were cranking one with no gauge available, and gauge line plugged off, and sparkplugs removed.)

 

.

[Taylormade]

The engine was completely rebuilt, so the oil,pump should be in good shape - no missing teeth or gear problems.  After several more attempts with no success, it's obvious I'm going to,have to pressure feed the oil lines from the oil gauge feed connection as you folks have suggested.  I'm amazed a turkey baster can force the oil in with sufficient force.  I was going to make a pressurized tank out of industrial grade PVC, fill it with oil, then pressurize to 40 pounds and inject the oil under pressure into the journals.  I know, I know, PVC and air pressure don't mix, but at 40 pounds I should be okay.

[hchris]

1 hour ago, Taylormade said:

The engine was completely rebuilt, so the oil,pump should be in good shape - no missing teeth or gear problems.  After several more attempts with no success, it's obvious I'm going to,have to pressure feed the oil lines from the oil gauge feed connection as you folks have suggested.  I'm amazed a turkey baster can force the oil in with sufficient force.  I was going to make a pressurized tank out of industrial grade PVC, fill it with oil, then pressurize to 40 pounds and inject the oil under pressure into the journals.  I know, I know, PVC and air pressure don't mix, but at 40 pounds I should be okay.

 

Yes, the design of the Dodge pumps really dictate that they should be primed before installation, as suggested you might try back priming through the guage fitting, and I really wouldn't be starting it until I saw some pressure.

[C Carl]

Yes , no need to start it yet. You should be getting a bit of pressure cranking as you have been. You simply have to prime the pump. You don't need much pressure to do that. The baster , or the simple pump Tom refers to on Dodge & Dodge Brothers is more than sufficient. No need to pump a charge of oil anywhere else on a new engine with assembly lube. That is a good idea if you are starting an old engine which has not been started for many years. In that case , you drain the old oil out before cranking at all , clean the pan if it is an unknown engine , and pump oil everywhere that old mill can take it. If it has a full flow filter , pump a quart of oil through the outlet side. If it hasn't been run in a very long time , every precaution possible is not overkill. In your case , your properly lubed new engine does not need such heroic measures , as Ed said. Just get the pump primed , but probably crank a small amount of oil through the gauge line to make sure the pickup is feeding the pump. Maybe up to a pint. I don't know how long you will have to crank to do that , but I would think 10 - 20 seconds. If all is well you will be splitting the delivery between the gauge line and the engine. You will be primed at that point. Then disconnect the line , and put a gauge in. Now crank away while someone watches the gauge. It will take some cranking to see a little pressure, but you are not putting much load on the starter with the plugs out. If you do not see pressure on the gauge after even a minute , pull it and re install the line. If you are still pumping oil through the line after all this , put the plugs back in and start it for ten seconds or so. Pressure should be up. Oh , did you pack the pump when you installed it ? I don't know the specifics of your particular engine and pump. As hchris implies above , I wonder if you will have to prime with a heavier oil (maybe gearlube) to initiate suction. In that case you might have to load up directly where the line is fitted , rather than trying to force through the narrow line. This is all easy to do quickly , and really should work , right guys ? Please correct me if I am wrong , as I am speaking generally, not knowing the particularities in play here with an engine I am not familiar with.   Good luck !   - Carl

 

Well , I thought I should put the same pic here that I posted down in Dodge &Dodge Brothers.

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by C Carl
Added picture (see edit history)

[edinmass]

A local collector just made a pressure oil pot out of schedual 40 four inch pvc. Worked fine. Do not use schedual 20. You don't need much volume, and ten pounds of pressure with the pot is more than enough. You have a small engine so it won't take long to fill the entire system. We use about a gallon on the big multi cylinder motors when we start them. Your rods are probably splash on the engine, so be sure you have the oil topped off. Ed

[Taylormade]

My engine has full pressure lubrication, no splash lube on the rods.  I plan to build the type of pressure pot you describe.  We'll see how it works.

[Guest]

Maybe I made it sound difficult. You can do the whole job in less than 10 minutes. Nine minutes of that is determining what you want to use for the drive tool. You remove the distributor. You look at the bottom end of the distributor shaft and see what kind of engagement it has with the oil pump. It's probably just a slot -maybe a hex. You chuck up an appropriate drive tool ( a big screwdriver with the handle cut off, an old distributor shaft, a long extension with the tip ground appropriately, WHATEVER) in a hand held drill, and spin the oil pump in the direction of normal distributor rotation. Voila !  The entire engine is lubed in a matter of a minute, and oil pressure will be read on the gauge. If you are concerned about getting the distributor back the same, just mark the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor body with a sharpie, and likewise the distributor body in relation to the block prior to removing it. You are not going to turn the engine over, you are just turning the oil pump.

 Attached are pics of some priming tools. One is a store bought Chevrolet tool and the other is made from an old distributor shaft.

One more thing... 9 times out of 10, this will spin the pump plenty fast enough to "pick up the prime" even if the engine builder neglected to fill the pump with STP or similar when assembling the engine - especially with a new pump. On the outside chance that it doesn't, you are fortunate that your engine has an externally mounted pump that you can easily remove, fill with STP and then proceed.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[keiser31]

46 minutes ago, 31 Caddy said:

Maybe I made it sound difficult. You can do the whole job in less than 10 minutes. Nine minutes of that is determining what you want to use for the drive tool. You remove the distributor. You look at the bottom end of the distributor shaft and see what kind of engagement it has with the oil pump. It's probably just a slot -maybe a hex. You chuck up an appropriate drive tool ( a big screwdriver with the handle cut off, an old distributor shaft, a long extension with the tip ground appropriately, WHATEVER) in a hand held drill, and spin the oil pump in the direction of normal distributor rotation. Voila !  The entire engine is lubed in a matter of a minute, and oil pressure will be read on the gauge. If you are concerned about getting the distributor back the same, just mark the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor body with a sharpie, and likewise the distributor body in relation to the block prior to removing it. You are not going to turn the engine over, you are just turning the oil pump.

Attached are pics of some priming tools. One is a store bought Chevrolet tool and the other is made from an old distributor shaft.

Yes....this way....

[Taylormade]

As far as I know, the oil pump is geared to the camshaft and can't be rotated independently of the crank/camshaft assembly.  You can see the setup in the illustration below.

 

 

This makes it impossible to use your method of rotating the pump shaft to prime it.  I'm going to try injecting oil into the system under pressure from the oil pressure gauge fitting.  If that fails, I'll remove the pump and prime it off the engine.

 

[Guest]

Ugghh,  the old oil pump drives the distributor, instead of the distributor driving the oil pump trick, lol. I agree, and thanks for educating me on the internals of the Dodge 6. Sorry for wasting your time, and good luck.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[keiser31]

I guess I don't know my own engine very well....

[Taylormade]

You are certainly not wasting my time.  I'm always amazed at the feedback and advice I receive on this forum.  Thank you all for joining in and trying to help.

[Spinneyhill]

Either way, we are hanging out here waiting to hear how it goes! All the best.

[C Carl]

Hmmmm , yes indeed . I keep checking. Looking for some good news. Hmmmmm , isn't number 15 in the diagram a check valve ? Yeah , you gotta figure that is necessary due to the high location of the oil pump. Hmmmmmm. Hmmmmmm ?  - Carl

[Durant Mike]

What a great engine and a fine looking restoration. Did you do your starter and generator or send them out?  Really nice looking.

[Taylormade]

7 hours ago, Durant Mike said:

What a great engine and a fine looking restoration. Did you do your starter and generator or send them out?  Really nice looking.

 

I sent them out to Jason Smith at Avanced Electrical Rebuilders.  He did a great job.  I figured they were beyond my expertise.

[Taylormade]

In what can only be described as extraordinary (for me, at least), my Rube Goldberg apparatus actually worked and my engine is now pumping oil.  This all started, as most of you know, when I wasn't getting any oil pumping out of the oil pressure gauge opening when I first cranked the engine, plugs out, to get oil circulating.  It soon became obvious that the oil pump wasn't primed and I was going to have to figure out how to prime it.  As stated in earlier threads, my oil pump shaft is geared to the cam and can not be spun with a drill to prime it. 
That left me with having to remove the oil pump, fill it with grease or heavy oil and put it back on.  Although the pump is on the side of the engine and has fairly easy access, to actually remove it is not so easy.  First, you have to remove the splash pan between the engine and the frame as the pump and shaft won't clear the pan coming out.  To get the splash pan off, you have to remove the spring shackle and drop the spring.  To compound the problem, the oil pump shaft also drives the distributor, so you have to get the pump back in timed correctly or the distributor timing will be off.  You're probably beginning to see why I didn't want to take the pump out unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

So, after some internet exploration, I built this little device out of Schedule 40 PVC pipe and ends.  At the top is the inlet for the air hose, and on the bottom, the hose and valve that goes into the oil pressure gauge outlet.

 

Here is the top with the air inlet to pressurize the device.

 

 

The top unscrews so you can pour the oil in.

 

 

I know PVC and air pressure don't mix, but since I was only going to pressurize to 30psi, I figured I was going to be fine.

 

So, I set the device up and attached it to the engine, poured oil in, screwed the top on and attached the air hose.  I then pressurized to 30psi with the valves on the hose closed.  Nothing exploded, burst or leaked, so I continued on.  Here is the set up - not very aesthetically pleasing with the duct tape, but it worked to hold the container upright.

 

 

This pressurized the oil in the container to 30psi down to the valve in the hose to the engine.  I used clear tubing so I could see the oil flow.  It's rated to 125psi, so, again, I figured I was safe.

 

 

Here is the hose connected to the threaded oil pressure gauge opening in the block.

 

 

With everything pressurized in the tank, I opened the valve and oil at 30psi flowed into the oil galleys of the engine.  While it was pressurized, I rotated the crank by hand to get oil into the crank passages.  After about thirty seconds, I closed the valve and removed the hose from the block.  Then I cranked the motor with the starter.  Oil was coming out of the block, but I wanted to make sure it was actually being pumped out and not just draining from the passages.  So I repeated the process.  This time I cranked the motor with the hose still attached and fully pressurized.  I got oil coming out of the block against the 30psi pressure, meaning the engine's oil pump was outdoing the 30psi from the tank.  Success!

 

Next step is to attach an oil pressure gauge, set the timing, adjust the carb and fire this sucker up!  Thanks for all the help and advice from folks on the forum.

 

 

[Guest]

Great work! Thanks for sharing this with us. Let us know when you start it up for the first time. Fire in the hole!

[C Carl]

Smiling with you !  - Carl

[Spinneyhill]

Well done young man!

[edinmass]

Well done, schedual 20 only holds 60 pounds pressure, schedual 40 is good for 175 pounds. Drive it like you stole it!

[Larry Schramm]

Great idea!!  Thanks for sharing.

[edinmass]

Working in the shop tonight, our local friend donated his oil pot to us. Thought it was worth a photo. He used a regulator and guage set up from harbor freight.

[Guest]

How is the regulator fitting secured in the plastic cap?

[Taylormade]

I tapped the hole I drilled in the cap to match the threads on the fitting, screwed the fitting in and secured it with a nut on the backside.

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Working in the shop tonight, our local friend donated his oil pot to us. Thought it was worth a photo. He used a regulator and guage set up from harbor freight.

 

Great minds think alike.  I used the regulator and gauge on my air hose connection, otherwise they look identical.

[JACK M]

This is a home made version of an accumulator.

A racing accumulator has a piston in it but may not be necessary.

The accumulator will hold oil pressure over oil that is pumped in it when the engine is running. (requires extra oil)

On the race car I put one of those remote oil cooler adaptors under the oil filter. The tee off of one of those lines to the accumulator.

Sometimes when driving in high speed circles the oil cant find its way back to the pan (ultimately the sump). The oil may be trapped by centrifugal force in the right side valve cover or maybe gets balled up on the crank shaft. If the pressure drops from lack of oil, the pressure above the oil in the accumulator will push this reserve oil into the system.

I also put a valve in this plumbing so that I can save the extra oil under pressure making it possible to  pre oil the system on a cold start up.