Engine Startup

[Taylormade]

Getting ready to start my rebuilt engine for the first time.  I have the plugs out and have cranked the motor over a few times in five second bursts.  Everything seems to be working okay - no unusual sounds, grinding metal or catastrophic failures.  I currently have no oil pressure gauge hooked up, but the connecting line is attached to the oil output.  So - do I need to have the gauge attached to get any pressure out of the line, or should oil start squirting out of the line as soon as the pump is primed and pumping oil?  Currently, nothing is coming out.  I have turned it over four times in five second bursts.  I don't want to damage anything, but I obviously would like to confirm that oil is circulating before I attempt the actual start up.  How long does it usually take for a fresh motor to oil up?

[JACK M]

Should start spurting oil.

At the relatively slow speed of cranking you may not get pressure.

If you have primed the pump you should get oil.

Not sure about the best way to prime that particular pump, but some times a drill motor or packing the pump with light grease.

Should you start the engine and everything is correct in the oiling system you will make a mess without a gauge on that line.

If your fresh engine has good assembly lube you should be able to crank it for longer than 5 seconds at a time.

[JACK M]

Another thought, can you crank it faster with a 12 volt battery?

[Taylormade]

I currently have a hose running into a jar, so there shouldn't be a mess if oil finally comes out.  I'm probably being too cautious, but I don't want to damage anything.

[Taylormade]

Cranked for a total of sixty seconds, ten to fifteen seconds at a time.  Still dry as a bone at the oil outlet.  Maybe I'll have to actually start the motor to get the revs up enough to get pressure.

[JACK M]

Common practice changing oil in the boat world to take the oil line, or sender out and run a hose to a bucket then run the engine until the oil stops coming out.

[Taylormade]

Maybe it just takes longer with a rebuilt motor.  I guess I'll just keep at it and see what happens.  I think the oil pump/distributor drive is geared to the camshaft, so I don't see any way to spin it with a drill to prime it.

[Phil 32DL6]

Until you get the oil flowing, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to occasionally squirt a little oil down those open plug holes.

[Taylormade]

I guess I'm going to have to try and pressure fill the oil passages with a pump.  I tried to get oil flowing again with absolutely no results.  I just can't risk continuing to turn the motor over and possibly damaging the internals.  The assembly lube is only going to last for so long.  Another very disappointing moment in the restoration as I was going to start the motor this weekend and videotape the process.  Now it's back to the drawing board and more delays. I'll have to find a decent pump, hoses and fittings and see if it will work.  It's beginning to look like another year without having my car on the road.

[ArticiferTom]

Quote

guess I'm going to have to try and pressure fill the oil passages with a pump

 I used a simple hand push pump/ suction gun from auto store . Above oil pressure limiter are the oil journals . Removed and installed 3/8 to tubing connector from hardware store and hand pushed in . Bleed air from gauge and helper say needle go up did  X 3 and figured enough added additional to fill oil to level and started .

[C Carl]

No , you will be driving soon. As Frank and I mentioned on "Technical" , use the gauge line as a priming port. All you need to do is get flow coming back out of the line. You are then primed. If you can not HOLD and maintain a prime with oil full , then the problem is at the pickup side of the pump. I know you do not want to pull the pan again , but if you prime and get flow but then lose the prime again , that will be your next move. Do not try to start the engine to build more pressure. Cranking with your starter when the plugs are out will give you plenty of obvious flow when the pump is primed. I have an unusually large amount of "frequent primer miles". I tucked a full-flow filter out of sight on my '24 Cad. A "fairly easy" modification due to the external oil pump. But now I have to prime from time to time after sitting for maybe a week or so. Particularly after being parked slightly nose up. I should see if I can plumb it differently , or insert some kind of an anti flow back valve. I did put a pressure primer in , however it is "one shot" , and loses pressure after long periods of dormancy. But it is not too difficult for me , as I don't have to pull the plugs. I just open the primer cups. Good spectator fun as the soft short combustion flame erupts from the 'cups ! What's that old saying ? The darkest hour comes before the dawn ? Carefully prime it , and you will shortly be listening to your  engine running like it never has before ! Also , speaking of oil , make sure to drive it 4,000 or 5,000 miles before you switch to synthetic oil. You will soon be one of the very most happy drivers on the road ! It sure has been a long time coming ! Courage !   - Carl

 

[rageracing]

I packed my oil pump with assembly lube and had oil pressure after only a few jogs of the motor.  I did pull a slight vacuum where the oil pressure gauge goes in too.

[Taylormade]

Is there any place on the Dodge six engine where you can tell if the oil passages are actually full?  Some point where oil will appear if you're forcing oil into the gauge line, maybe in the lifter galley?  

[hchris]

1 hour ago, Taylormade said:

Is there any place on the Dodge six engine where you can tell if the oil passages are actually full?  Some point where oil will appear if you're forcing oil into the gauge line, maybe in the lifter galley?  

 

If you haven't got it at the guage outlet then it wont be anywhere else, take the pump off (not a big job) and prime it before refitting. Don't forget to get the timing right before removal

[Ian_Greenlaw]

Hi Richard,

I know when I first started mine that I connected a cheap gauge to the port and as I cranked it the oil pressure came up. It took a few goes but eventually came up.

sounds like your getting there !!!!

cheers

Ian

[C Carl]

Yes , something like this :

 

[JACK M]

Again, Not familiar with your engine, but typically the priming would be done with the distributor out of the engine and a tool hooked up to a drill motor with the other end in the oil pump thru the distributor hole.

I have made such tools, some by cutting a slot in a shaft, some by grinding a tab into the end of a shaft, some by welding a hex key to a shaft, etc.

Shouldn't be to difficult. Make sure you turn it the correct rotation.

[JACK M]

Once you feel the drill motor load up roll the engine slowly to let the galleys in the cam and crank pass over each of the block galleys a few times.

DO THIS WITH A GAUGE HOOKED UP !!

Edited April 14, 2017 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

Can't do it on this motor.  The oil pump is geared to the camshaft, so no way to use a drill to prime the pump.  I already have a DIY pressure oil injector made and am just waiting for the wife to get back with the last part I need to complete it.  I'll post pictures and let you know how it goes.

[C Carl]

From the diagram you posted on "Technical" , it sure looks like what you are going to do will work perfectly. But , where does the gauge line plumb in ? Do plug in a gauge there. You will be on the road soon. Now if for any reason you can't maintain pressure after the comprehensive prime you are giving the whole system (and turning the engine while doing so as Jack says) , then you have a pickup problem. But I highly doubt that. It is just obvious that from where the oil pump is , and the angle of its mounting that it must have a good prime. I expect that the next news is good news ! Congratulations in advance , Carl !

[F&J]

5 hours ago, C Carl said:

and the angle of its mounting

 

 

When he pressure feeds the system and oil makes it to that angled pump, the oil pump can never drain completely due to that angle.  So there is no worry about "rushing" to unhook the pressure filler and test cranking the engine.

 

I'd skip the gauge on the first cranking test.  If the pump now has some oil, there will only be a very few seconds before oil runs out of the gauge fitting port/fitting while cranking.  Then hook the gauge up.

[C Carl]

Definitely. You do need to see oil coming back through the line while cranking with the plugs out. At that point the pump should be primed. You could then try to force more oil in before putting the gauge on for startup. You should see some pressure on the gauge within a few seconds as the pump fills the entire engine lubrication system. There could be some necessary "trick" on your engine , due to the elevated location of the oil pump , and/or check valve. I know nothing about these particular engines. If you are still having difficulties , hopefully some who knows that exact type of engine will know whatever "trick". Various engines I have primed have been easy. I am sure all of us are becoming a bit concerned for you as we nervously wait. I hope you are merely tending to life's priorities, and have not regurgitated a crankcase of oil all over your car and shop !  Happy Easter !   - Carl

[Taylormade]

In what can only be described as extraordinary (for me, at least), my Rube Goldberg apparatus actually worked and my engine is now pumping oil.  This all started, as most of you know, when I wasn't getting any oil pumping out of the oil pressure gauge opening when I first cranked the engine, plugs out, to get oil circulating.  It soon became obvious that the oil pump wasn't primed and I was going to have to figure out how to prime it.  As stated in earlier threads, my oil pump shaft is geared to the cam and can not be spun with a drill to prime it. 
That left me with having to remove the oil pump, fill it with grease or heavy oil and put it back on.  Although the pump is on the side of the engine and has fairly easy access, to actually remove it is not so easy.  First, you have to remove the splash pan between the engine and the frame as the pump and shaft won't clear the pan coming out.  To get the splash pan off, you have to remove the spring shackle and drop the spring.  To compound the problem, the oil pump shaft also drives the distributor, so you have to get the pump back in timed correctly or the distributor timing will be off.  You're probably beginning to see why I didn't want to take the pump out unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

So, after some internet exploration, I built this little device out of Schedule 40 PVC pipe and ends.  At the top is the inlet for the air hose, and on the bottom, the hose and valve that goes into the oil pressure gauge outlet.

 

Here is the top with the air inlet to pressurize the device.

 

 

The top unscrews so you can pour the oil in.

 

 

I know PVC and air pressure don't mix, but since I was only going to pressurize to 30psi, I figured I was going to be fine.

 

So, I set the device up and attached it to the engine, poured oil in, screwed the top on and attached the air hose.  I then pressurized to 30psi with the valves on the hose closed.  Nothing exploded, burst or leaked, so I continued on.  Here is the set up - not very aesthetically pleasing with the duct tape, but it worked to hold the container upright.

 

 

This pressurized the oil in the container to 30psi down to the valve in the hose to the engine.  I used clear tubing so I could see the oil flow.  It's rated to 125psi, so, again, I figured I was safe.

 

 

Here is the hose connected to the threaded oil pressure gauge opening in the block.

 

 

With everything pressurized in the tank, I opened the valve and oil at 30psi flowed into the oil galleys of the engine.  While it was pressurized, I rotated the crank by hand to get oil into the crank passages.  After about thirty seconds, I closed the valve and removed the hose from the block.  Then I cranked the motor with the starter.  Oil was coming out of the block, but I wanted to make sure it was actually being pumped out and not just draining from the passages.  So I repeated the process.  This time I cranked the motor with the hose still attached and fully pressurized.  I got oil coming out of the block against the 30psi pressure, meaning the engine's oil pump was outdoing the 30psi from the tank.  Success!

 

Next step is to attach an oil pressure gauge, set the timing, adjust the carb and fire this sucker up!  Thanks for all the help and advice from folks on the forum.

 

 

 

[Phil 32DL6]

Nicely done!

 

I'd patent that sucker...er, pumper before someone else does!

[C Carl]

Cheers !!!  What was it the controller said after "The Eagle has landed" ? Something like : "We are all breathing again !" ?   - Carl

[MikeC5]

Nice work!  And for just a few dollar's worth of common hardware too.

[Bullfrog_eng]

Richard, so glad you are a few steps ahead of me with the DA restoration, THANKS!!

Love the duct tape, you have obviously learned from the Red Green Show.

John

[R.White]

That's brilliant!  You are a natural at improvisation.  Where there's a will there's a way.

 

Ray.

[RickBrinker]

Does it run ?????????

[Taylormade]

I'm not running at the moment.  A visit to the hospital and a battery of tests have put me out of commission for the time being.  Hoping to get my energy back and get out in the shop in the next day or two.

[Spinneyhill]

Hope your recovery is rapid. Take your time and get the rest you need to aid recovery. All the best.

[C Carl]

Richard , we are all hoping you are O.K.   - Carl , on behalf of each and every one of us , I am sure.

[R.White]

Hello Richard.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery.  Chin up! - as we Brits say.

 

Ray.

[Taylormade]

Thanks everyone for the kind words.  My stress test revealed no problems with clogged arteries or my heart muscle, so I may last a few more years.  I was out in the garage today working on my BB1 carb - which I rebuilt last year and discovered it had frozen up sitting on the shelf for twelve months.  Some disassembly and a bit of lube and she's ready to go again.

[Ron Lawson]

Great news Richard I am off to the Drs in about 5 mins Have to go and arrange for a scan on my lungs Praying to God that they find nothing bad as I have been plagued with lung problems for the last 12 years 

[Taylormade]

Hoping you get good news, Ron.

[keiser31]

Hope all is well, Ron.

[Ron Lawson]

The scan has been put off for a month as I have just recently had a chest infection The Dr seem to think that it is nothing serious, just a precaution.Thank you 

[R.White]

Hey Ron, we are having a taste of your dry weather with a drought on the cards.  Parts of the river Derwent in Cumbria (usually one of the wettest parts in England) have dried up completely. Spring Barley is withering because the rains that we are reliant on have failed.  It seems to be either feast or famine these days.  I hope you are getting whatever treatment you need to get  over your difficulties.  I wish you well.

 

Ray.

[Ron Lawson]

Thanks Ray We will pray for rain for you