SC38dls Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) Can anyone show me a picture or explain in detail where this spring goes on the brake/clutch pedal. It broke and fell off pulling out of garage. I checked shop manual and parts catalog but no luck with a picture. It should have hook on broken end - new one on order. Any help will be appreciated. Dave S Edited April 7, 2017 by SC38DLS Added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Commander Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Others are better versed than me but believe this is one of the emergency brake springs. One of the best pictures you'll ever see of the clutch and brake springs has just been posted - go to post "39 clutch pedal spring" perhaps 6 to 8 posts below yours and about 3 replays down is a picture of the proper springs and mounting of the clutch and brake springs --- 1938 and 1939 use the same springs and mounting. Do your brake and clutch pedals still work? If so you know it is not them. If they are not working properly someone has used the wrong spring in a previous repair. Clutch springs are available from Bob K (who is recovering from surgery) Or Stephen Allen. Studebaker International has the brake springs as I recall. if the brake and clutch pedals work normally but your emergency brake doesn't then that's the spring you need to replace. See page 348 and illustration # 1110-22 and 23 for the location of these springs. If you can't find a new one, let me know as I took the springs off my parts car but have no idea which box they are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) I would say that is e-brake spring...my clutch pedal spring is about half that length and does not have the long ends. Here is pics of the e brake spring...just a tad shorter spring but maybe you have a hole further back in the frame. hope this helps. Edited April 7, 2017 by fh4ever (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 7, 2017 Author Share Posted April 7, 2017 Thank you both -- I found the other thread after I posted this one. It makes more sense it is the emergency brake spring. I just had no idea as it fell off completely. The rear brakes seemed to be dragging last time I took it out for a short run. That was why I was pulling it out when the spring fell off. I was going to give it a short drive and see if it was my imagination or if it was correct. If I had heat in rear brakes after using pedal or if pedal was getting harder to push I would assume they were not working properly but I never though of the emergency brake being the cause. I thought the hill holder would be a more likely cause as I have had to remove it in the past and clean it out. Again thank you for the help and pics. Now I just have to order the correct spring. You are right I believe SI will have them. Dave S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Well I got under the car to check the e-brake and that spring is in place. So I took a couple pics. There is a spring on the brake pedal but none on the clutch. Should it have one? Again I'm lost so any help is appreciated. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Commander Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) There are 2 emergency brake springs used on your car both # 176073. You show a picture of one on the drivers side but there should be an identical spring on the passengers side. As for the clutch spring look at the post entitled 39 clutch spring. The last reply which shows the correct placement of the spring. The spring does not attach to the clutch pedal but rather the "outer release shaft" and the rear engine cross member. if you look on your car my guess is you will find that the emergency brake spring is missing. Look at page 348 in the parts book Edited April 8, 2017 by Cowtown Commander (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Cowtown commander. The pics I show are all at the pedals linkage. I think the e brake springs are much further back attached to the bar that attaches to the cables. Not sure if I have one or both as you say. I need to look at the pic in the other thread when I'm under the car to see if I can make sense of it. Do you think any of this could cause the rear brakes to drag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Ref. dragging brakes. Has the car sat for a while? If so, you might have to clean out the wheel cylinders - the pistons I think are aluminium in a steel (or sleeved) cylinder and corrode and then stick. (Remember, Al is near the top of the galvanic series, steel is a wee way down.) Also, when was the brake fluid last replaced? In addition, when corroded pistons stick, they often leak because you have the cup over corrosion products. If the rears are dragging because of this, I expect the fronts will not be far away from the same condition and you should look at them too. I have been there a few times.... grrrr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) Spinneyhill it is a daily driver or close to it. If the weather is bad it stays in the garage. I drive it two or three times a week. It's 78 and I'm 70 years old so I think it's going to out last me, so my attitude is drive it and have fun. It was in a barn for 42 years buffed the paint out, rebuilt the engine, trans, electrical wiring and all of the brakes. New wheel cyclinders and lines. The hill holder has needed to be cleaned out once but that is all. Fluid and rebuild is only two years old. It just seems too much of a coincidence with this broken spring but maybe I'm just wrong. Edited April 8, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Xclnt. It had to be asked. If it were that spring causing the problem, it would need a good lever arm on the rear shoe actuating mechanism to pull them off the drum. The brake return spring in the drum is much heavier than that I think and should do the job. Is the cable free in the first part from the hand lever down and into each drum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 I will have to check the cable and see if the springs are there and connected. I really don't know much about brakes and where everything connects as my brother did all of that and he is no longer here. I'll try to take pics then compare them to any I can find on line. If I can't resolve It will go in to the shop as I won't mess with brakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Commander Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 1 hour ago, SC38DLS said: I will have to check the cable and see if the springs are there and connected. I really don't know much about brakes and where everything connects as my brother did all of that and he is no longer here. I'll try to take pics then compare them to any I can find on line. If I can't resolve It will go in to the shop as I won't mess with brakes Taking it to a professional would definitely be a good idea if you are unsure of what to do. However having the necessary parts on hand to make the repairs would be a good idea as you don't want to get it apart and then take weeks to get the parts. One way the emergency brakes could be activated and not release would be if the cable were rusted to the armored housing the encases the cable. On one side of my car the cable was rusted and would not allow the brake to be activated. If you car was parked with the emergency brake activated and the cable rusted to the protective enclosure then the brakes would not release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) So far I have not had a chance to get back under it as my wife has had me doing things this AM. Going out there now. I did go thru the parts book and the only spring that matches the number of coils on mine is a right hand drive clutch return spring. Mine has 30 coils and the e brake, regular brake pedal or clutch all should be 24 , 27 or 33 coil springs. So somewhere the wrong spring was installed as someone suggested earlier. I will post what ever I find later today. Thank you all for the input I do appreciate it. Dave S Edited April 8, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Ok I checked the e brake and both springs are there and both cables move ok - I will pull rear wheels and check brake parts soon. I took a pic of my pedal levers and compared to pic in other post mine are different. Maybe difference is due to years or type of trans. If you look in very upper left of 39 pic (first pic) it looks like there is another rod connected to lever goes toward rear of car. Middle is brake and both have springs. Right in 39 pic has a spring connected to cross member and ??? My 38 seems to have different linkage and the broken spring is too big to be connected to the shift linkage down to cross member same with connecting to clutch. Should there be a spring to clutch linkage? Is so does it go forward or back towards rear? Any other places a long spring should be attached?? I am stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Just a wild off the wall thought... could the fallen spring be an accelerator return spring or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 That is possible but the coils are about 1 inch across. I think the accelerator would come back pretty fast it that is what it was for. I'll check to see it it would fit there or if one is missing from the gas pedal. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 sc38DLS...that is my picture from the other thread and it appears you have the same linkages I have...The small rod going going to the rear (you mentioned) is the linkage for the hillholder, I dont see this linkage in your photo. The spring to the right of the clutch pedal lever is the brake spring and you have that. then over to the right ...that arm that goes upwards from the clutch shaft...next to the tranny...see that hole in the top? that is where the clutch pedal spring goes...and then the other end goes to the hole in the crossmember. I just replaced that spring and the spring body hit the crossmember, making a bend in the spring which I did not like..so I made that angled bracket and bolted it to the hole in the crossmember pulling the spring further away from the crossmember. Now regarding the e brake spring...sounds like you verified yours are there in place....You can see mine in my pic in frame #3 above. Just to make sure you know where this is on the car...behind it you can see the front drive shaft yoke in the background. regarding Spinney's comment about the gas pedal spring ...that spring as you may know is attached on the carb linkage at the carburetor and the other end is attached to a mount on the bellhousing. It is not as heavy of a spring as you pictured. So I dont think that is it. Take a look at your hood springs... I looked at my hood springs and they are heavy in size but they do not have the long ends as in your picture. Since you have a missing clutch spring, I wonder if someone added the wrong spring at one time and had it attached to the clutch pedal arm (the hole where the hill holder linkage goes) and then attached the other end to whatever they could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 9, 2017 Author Share Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) Fh4ever. Thank you I think you hit the nail on the head. The broken spring can not be an original spring. I disconnected the hill holder as the ball bearing in it had a flat spot and did not roll properly, I have yet to find the correct size to replace it. I thought you had said in your thread you added the bracket and the hole in my cross member would be where it should hook into. I just could not see where the other end attached too and was not sure if it was at that linkage. I appreciate your help and explanation. It's great to be able to ask for help and have so many good people respond. I have ordered the correct spring from Studebaker international in Indiana and it should be here early next week. I think I will make a bracket modeled after yours tomorrow so I have it on hand. Thanks again. I will post a pic after I have it fixed. Maybe someday we can get all of these 38 & 39's in the same place to compare notes Dave S Edited April 9, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 No guarantee mine are even correct, but I feel they are darn close! Thanks to Cowtown for helping me get mine sorted out! when you get the new spring, try attaching it to the hole in the crossmember and see if the spring coils rubs and bends against the crossmember. I feel like the spring they supply is not exact but its the closest one that is made. The original probably had a longer end so the coils would not hit the crossmember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 9, 2017 Author Share Posted April 9, 2017 I will try it and take a picture so you can see it. Thanks to all who helped. The collective knowledge in this group guarantees these old cars will be around and running for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 No spring yet. I'm. Beginning to wonder if they had it. They said they would only call if they did not have it in stock. I'll wait another day then call again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 maybe I got the last one they had ! give them a little more time, my last order took longer than expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 I called it was shipped 4/10. They gave me a tracking number. I checked. It is in Lexington but the USPS has a delayed delivery on it! I've worked with the magazine publishing industry for 45 years and know from experience there is not a damn thing you can do to speed up the USPS -- it is a shame SI pays/charges for expedited delivery when the post office does this to a small package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 as a matter of fact, i think mine was priority mail and took way longer than it should have. I was about to call them when I got home and the package had just arrived. another subject...can you take a pic of your battery and ground cable? I would like to see which end is positive or negative, and see the ground cable routing. I have no cables and need to see where they normally go (assuming your are correct). I do have one small cable/strap from the battery hold down to the fender but I feel the main battery ground does not go there. That strap is not very heavy and I feel it might be just to connect the fenders to the frame to service the headlights and horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 I will be happy to take the picture. I'll have to get under it to show where it connects if I remember correctly. I am positive mine is correct as I have put a couple thousand miles on it. I driv it on a regular basis and all electrical works well. I'll let you know as soon as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 4 hours ago, fh4ever said: I would like to see which end is positive or negative, and see the ground cable routing. I have no cables and need to see where they normally go (assuming your are correct). I do have one small cable/strap from the battery hold down to the fender but I feel the main battery ground does not go there. That strap is not very heavy and I feel it might be just to connect the fenders to the frame to service the headlights and horn. In a 1939 Commander the original battery ground is to the battery containing box clamping bolt at the top. The ground then goes through the box hold-down bolts to the chassis. The 1939 parts book says p.n. 195120, STRAP, battery ground, 4-3/4" (group D75) and that is it! This a useless earth so it was changed. In the '34-46 parts book it shows it as P.N. 511323 and 10-1/2" long (group 0630) with an engine ground 5-3/4" long. My guess is there is a service bulletin that gives a change to that battery ground strap. I don't know where the engine ground goes; mine is at the front engine mount. Both of these straps are shown as flat in the picture on p.239. My battery ground (non-original, non-flat cable) goes to an oil filter mounting bolt (installed by a P.O.). No doubt dealers did the upgrade but did they always follow the instructions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 (edited) Thanks Spinney, I was wondering if there was a cable from the battery to that bolt at the top of the battery box and I figured it had to ground through the box to the frame....that small braided cable from the bolt on the box to the fender must only service the headlights being its size is small. There is a ground strap on the front motor mount too. so it looks like all I am missing is the battery cable to that bolt on the bat box. With all that said, I would assume the ground post of the battery is closest to the bolt on the battery box? In addition, I am thinking of running a ground to a starter bolt as many folks recommend,...just wanted to know how the factory routing was first before I do anything. thanks all Edited April 14, 2017 by fh4ever (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 Maybe this will help - out of my 37-38 shop and parts manuals. I'll get actual pic asap - family stuff too do this AM then garage time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 8 hours ago, fh4ever said: that small braided cable from the bolt on the box to the fender must only service the headlights being its size is small. There is a ground strap on the front motor mount too. so it looks like all I am missing is the battery cable to that bolt on the bat box. With all that said, I would assume the ground post of the battery is closest to the bolt on the battery box? In addition, I am thinking of running a ground to a starter bolt as many folks recommend,... I think you have an extra strap from the battery box to the fender. The headlights struggle in these cars because of poor earthing so your extra strap would be useful. So it sounds like the wee strap at the front engine mount might be the original way. Yes, if the original strap was 4.75" long, it would need the + terminal at the front of the box. If you measure 10.5" from the + terminal, you might get the idea of where the upgraded strap went. An oil filter bolt might just about be it. is your battery on the left as in RHD cars... if so, will it look messy running a cable round the steering stuff over to a starter bolt? Remember they are 6 V so a big cable is needed. The 1937-8 part number is different to the 1939 part number too. But the upgraded strap was fitted to A to 12A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 You're right about going to the starter bolt...to keep it clean looking, its 40" to go around the behind the battery back to the starter... that's why I wanted to see where did the factory put it. I think going to the oil filter bolt could be the best route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 Got the spring installed and went with a bracket as it fit without it but spring was rubbing cross member. The spring had a longer hook on one end but still rubbed. As far as the battery hookup- the positive ground snakes all the way up to a bolt for starter. There is also a short wire that bolts to the bracket near the battery and a very small wire that goes to the electric fuel pump. Non of this is stock. The positive has a bracket holding it to the frame mean the pedals. The negative snacked around and hooks up to starter soilinoid. Hard to get a decent pic in the limited space I have under it. I would guess your estimate of 40 inches is not far off. As mention somewhere above 6 volt is heavier wire than 12 so get the correct size if ordering new. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 (edited) Well the spring did not stop the vibration. I just hope it is not the universal joint as mine are the rubber type and I don't think they are available anywhere. Does anyone know if these are available or can be rebuilt? Edited April 15, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 glad you got the spring ...so your spring hit the crossmember like mine did. regarding your first pic with the battery in it ...looks like you took the pic from underneath looking upwards.......is your battery under the floor ? I see what looks like a panel to remove to access the battery. Mine is in the engine bay. Describe the vibration you are referring to.....did you hear it before the discovery of the spring on the floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 16, 2017 Author Share Posted April 16, 2017 (edited) My battery is under the floor under the seat. It is a pain to do anything with it but leaves a lot of room in the engine bay. The vibration had started on the drive I found the spring in the driveway. So I don't know if the spring broke because of the vibration or it started because the spring broke. The test drive after replacing it was the same as with no spring. It starts at about 30 mph and gets worse the faster you go. I have not taken it over 40 as I do not want to break anything and only driven it about a mile or so to test it. The noise increases as the speed increases also. It is smooth up until about 30 and disappears as you slow back down but does not go away until you are at about 20 or so. I was thinking of putting it up on jack stands and testing but I am just not comfortable that it is really safe. I have good stands but still that is still scary. Any ideas? Edited April 16, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 You thought it was right front? What if you swap the right front wheel with left rear? This will check the wheel. Is the castor set correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 16, 2017 Author Share Posted April 16, 2017 Spinneyhill the vibration came on suddenly-- I've put 1200 - 1500 miles on the car this last year or so and it was very smooth. I checked to see if I lost a balance weigh on one or more wheels but can not see any marks where one may be missing. I have thought of pulling all 4 and having them rebalanced. Talked with a tire guy and he did not think it would be that if I could not see a missing weight. If you think switching the wheels around I'll give it a try. Should I do all 4 or just 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Check the tightness of all the wheel nuts on all four wheels. Jack up each front wheel, one at a time with the other on the ground and shake each wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock, then at 9 and 3. Compare results. Does the vibration occur while the clutch is disengaged? That is, at say, 35 mph, disengage the clutch and coast. Vibration still there? Check the tightness of front suspension components and rear springs. I'd be inclined to replace the driveshaft and old u-joints with available-anywhere, greaseable ones, just on General Principles--stand the old one with u-joints in a corner until you find replacements, if ever. Unless you're shooting for absolute max points at a Stude meet or at Pebble Beach, the more modern driveshaft and u-joints, easily done at a driveline shop near you, will serve you infinitely better than the originals. Did that with my Jeepster to replace the Rzeppa joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fh4ever Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 SC38DLS... I hope this makes sense ...this might help clue you in if its a wheel or driveshaft.... a driveshaft vibration will be at a higher or faster frequency...than a wheel vibration which is at a slower rate... I picture in my mind whether or not the wheel is spinning as fast as the vibration. A bent rim can cause it too. but I assume you did not hit anything. good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted April 16, 2017 Author Share Posted April 16, 2017 Thanks guys. The whole front end was rebuilt about 2-3 years ago. I did check wheels for bearing play and did not feel any but remember I'm an old guy with a major back problem (old football injuries from using my head as a battering ram from 3rd grade thru college) and no longer have the strength to do what I did even 10 years ago. Interesting you brought up the drive shaft as that is what I was hoping to avoid. I think I'll put it up on jack stands pull the shaft and see if the universal has round or oval bolt holes. My thinking is if that is the vibration cause the metal (brass?) that the bolt passes thru will be out of round. Does that sound reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Before you pull the driveshaft, shake it to check for major looseness and check the tightness of all bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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