1964carlito Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Just recently bought a running 1939 Ponitac coupe with a running flathead six. Got it running and after few minutes radiator boiled over dumping about half quart coolant on floor. Gauge was temped out so I quickly shut engine off. Top radiator hose hot, bottom hose cool to touch. Radiator cool. Previous owner said radiator has been replaced. It looks newer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike36 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Thermostat stuck in closed positions? Lower hose collapsing not allowing coolant flow? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 I was thinking the top hose wouldn't be hot if thermostat stuck. I do have part on order and one by one will be going through components of cooling system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Stuck 'stat is the first thing to check for, because the bottom hose is cold. Many people replace radiators without cleaning the blocks, so dislodged crud from the block re-clogs the new radiator. Suggest you run some serious flush through the entire cooling system to establish a baseline--I do that with every new cquisition. While you're checking the thermostat, remove the top hose from the upper neck of the radiator and install the cheapest and best coolant filter: a woman's short stocking (as women wear with slacks, about $6 for 10 pair at the drugstore). Push the closed toe of the stocking as far as you can into the top tank of the radiator with a blunt instrument such as a screwdriver or ratchet HANDLE. Then fold the excess (selvage) over the outside of the upper neck. Then replace the upper hose. The stocking is captured by the neck and hose, and any crud from the block will be caught in the mesh of the stocking toe. After 4 hrs or 100 miles, drain off about a gallon of coolant (you can re-use it), remove the stocking and wash out any accumulated debris under a faucet, then reinstall your stocking filter. The more debris found, the sooner will be your next cleaning effort. This will give you a good understanding of whether your block is clean or not. WHENEVER YOU'VE USED A CHEMICAL FLUSH, THROW OUT THE STOCKING AND USE A NEW ONE. If the new radiator has in fact been clogged by debris from an unclean block, you will need to backflush the radiator and the block separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Here is a funny one. Had a similar problem with a 51 DeSoto. It turned out the rad was full of chewed up brown paper shop towels, probably a mouse nest. The only way to get rid of them was to take the rad off turn it upside down and flush it. I picked out all the floating debris I could and the top tank looked clear but when I cleaned it properly got a bunch of debris the size of a football. I believe someone drained the rad for the winter and left the cap off. There was no obvious sign until one day I saw a bit of floating junk and pulled it out with needle nose pliers. You could see the rad was full of water, and it would cool at idle but overheat as soon as you got going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 There is a coolant tube that circulates the water to the back of the engine. These often rot out and need to be replaced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 If it is a bad coolant distribution tube you can tell with an electronic thermometer. The back of the engine should be the same temp as the front. If the back is a lot hotter it is probably bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) The half quart of coolant sounds like the radiator was overfull. You need to allow some space for the water to expand when it gets hot. Leave the water 2 to 3" below the filler neck, but over the tubes you can see. If you fill it to the top it will just eject it to 2 or 3" below. What do you mean "gauge temped out"? Edited March 27, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 The thing is, the bottom radiator hose was cool to touch as was the radiator. I meant the temp gauge in car was all the way at hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Obviously the coolant is not circulating. If the thermostat is working and the water pump is working (fan belt is in place) then there must be a blockage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I think the temp. gauge sending unit is located close to the back of the head, giving a reading of "hot", no circulation.. I`d say the front of the water tube is rotted off, therefore the water flow is circulating at the front of the engine without traveling thru the block, and staying cool.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) I'm getting an idea of what I have to do. Remove radiator, water pump, remove a part of the front grill so I can remove the water distribution tube (lot easier said than done) from reading folks who've removed them. Supposedly my vehicle sat for 40+ years in storage, so I'm expecting the worst. My radiator is newer, probably replaced recently as was the thermostats, said by previous owner. Because of the presumably rusted, blocked distribution tube. So...if this is the case, where can I get a replacement? Edited March 28, 2017 by 1964carlito (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Nice car, Carlito! Good for you! We ALL have been in your place, where you have to do the necessities to put a Sleeping Beauty / Rip van Winkle car back into DEPENDABLE service. These are all part of the (hate to use the term) "barn find" process, and just think of it as learning about your new car. Earlier, I mentioned "baseline" and that's what we all do. Record (computer file or stubby pencil what you do with date and mileage, Take as many deep breaths as necessary, and take your time. The Usual Suspects for Sleeping Beauty cars are (1) hydraulic brake component complete rebuild including new flex hoses, (2) cooling system, (3) gas tank boilout and fuel pump rebuild with anti-ethanol diaphragm and new flex hose near pump, (4) fan belt, radiator and heater hoses and other water-carrying rubber and (5) re=pack front wheel bearings. Some of these can be done later than others, but all must be done, or verify that they have been done recently. Overheating: Yes, the water distribution tube is likely to need replacing, but FIRST check the thermostat, and drill two 1/8" holes thru the flat section so you don't have to burp it to remove air. Do the stocking trick and see how much crud gets caught in the stocking. You might want to CAREFULLY (with two flare wrenches and a lot of penetrating oil) remove th temperature gauge sending unit, gently clean the crud off the bulb, poke around in the head cavity and remove rust. You may have a block drain petcock at the left rear of the block, Remove the whole petcock. Fish around with a piece of coat hanger etc. You may wind up using a pressure washer in those two access points to the water jacket. We're here to help! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thank you very much Grimy. I definitely will take my time, research and take the necessary steps. I appreciate all the advice. Like I said, I'll check each component at a time, clean, inspect for serviceability. If I do need another water tube, I'm finding it hard to locate one online. Maybe I'm just missing it. Anyways I've ordered a Pontiac service manual, upon receiving it, then I'll go to town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Or you could get an infrared thermometer and find out in 10 seconds if the tube is bad without taking anything apart. If you can't do that start the engine and keep touching the front and back of the engine with your hand. If the back gets hot and the front doesn't there is your answer. Edited March 28, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) I think I'll make the investment in a digital thermometer. Edited March 28, 2017 by 1964carlito (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 So what's the direction of coolant flow in a Pontiac 223 six, from pump up into upper hose into radiator, then back to engine from lower radiator hose? Does the water tube take coolant from the back and bring it to the front? Or force water from pump to back of engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Before you take everything apart you will want to look in the top of the radiator fill and see if you have bubbles coming up when the engine is cold and just started. If you do, the head gasket is the most likely culprit. Worst case scenario, a crack in the head or block. I've even seen a crack in an exhaust valve seat that has traveled into the water jacket on different engines in the past. Any place that compression is leaking into the coolant will make an engine overheat very quickly. Dandy Dave! Edited March 28, 2017 by Dandy Dave (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) I'm no Pontiac expert so I don't know if they even have a tube. But I can describe how they work in Chrysler built engines I am more familiar with. (Later - found out Pontiac did use a water distribution tube in those engines. Have not found a picture yet.) The water pump on those engines is on the block. It takes coolant from the bottom of the radiator and pushes it into the coolant passages on the valve side of the engine. Behind the pump there is a galvanized steel tube that runs the length of the engine. It is a tight fit into the hole in the block, so all the coolant has to go through it. (Later - some of these tubes are made of brass and do not rust or corrode) This tube has strategically placed holes that direct the water towards the exhaust valves and through the passages between the cylinders. The water then passes upward into the head and forward to the upper rad hose. If this tube rusts away there is nothing to stop the coolant from streaming straight up the front of the engine and out the upper rad hose. This leaves the rest of the engine without cooling. It is also possible for the tube to get clogged with rust, scale, and debris. These things almost never happened when the cars were new but, today we are dealing with 70 years of wear and tear so who knows. The thermometer will tell the tale. The front of the engine should be the same temp as the back. Edited March 28, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thanks Rusty, I'll remove radiator and water pump to get access to the tube for cleaning and inspection. Actually prior to that I'll inspect radiator and inspevt/test thermostat. I'll try and flush out block as best as I can. I won't run engine till I fix cooling problem. I ran it for about five minutes and temp on gauge was 200 deg and radiator laid a nice puddle from overflow. Top hose was hot, bottom hose and radiator was cool to touch. Thanks guys for all the tech support. Two weeks ago I had no idea what water distribution tube was. Learning experience and all osrt of the vintage car game. As another said, I'm waking up car from a long sleep since late 1960s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 When you eventually pull the water pump, check (1) whether the impeller is severely eroded (post a photo, we'll tell you), and (2) whether the impeller is securely attached to the shaft (if not, the shaft will turn as driven by the fan belt, but the impeller will just idle). Either or both are possible after this car's long nap. Either requires a replacement water pump. Do the least invasive work first--you just might get lucky! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Afterthought: Before pulling anything apart other than checking the 'stat, try running the engine briefly with the water level about 2 inches below the neck. Have someone rev the engine moderately while you look for (1) flow of coolant into the top tank (won't be any if 'stat is stuck or upside down, or doesn't have bleed holes, and (2) bubbles in the top tank indication a compression leak to the cooling system, which could be a blown head gasket or a cracked block or head. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 My money is on a clogged rad or failed thermostat. You can tear the engine down if you want, it's your car. But I wouldn't go to all that work if it didn't need it. Once you have the thermometer you can test the radiator in detail (plugged up tubes will be cool) the rad hoses and engine . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Several years ago there was an add on ebay selling a bunch (8-10 or 12) of these coolant tubes. The seller would not split the group up and sell individual tubes. They were sold so someone out there has a stock of these original tubes. Join POCI and advertise there as well as any Pontiac group on line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 I found this one on ebay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Ok will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDave Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 hello everyone if the vehicle has a heater take the hoses off the heater and put a water hose with a pointed nozzle in the heater hose and turn the water on,start engine for a fiew moments and see what comes out of the other heater hose,may just need a good flush a thermostat and new water,i wouyldnt put coolant until i was sure everything was working properly dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thanks Dave. Yes does have a heater and makes sense to do that. Flush system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Be mindful that removing the water distribution tube will require you to remove the radiator and the water pump and in some cars the grill may have to be removed as well. To remove the water dist. tube it is easiest to with a slide hammer.. Get a piece of steel bar stock about 1/8 x 1/2 x 24" long. Weld about 4-6 tines on it that will go up into the holes in the tube. If that tube pulls out easy without a slide hammer you have been living right.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Yep as I investigate it more I'll have to accomplish exactly as you said. Well, hopefully if req'd I can get it out. I'll take my time and do it right or get help. I see on my 39 Pontiac the portion of the grill that has to be removed as well as radiator. Again thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Sometimes ebay can be your friend especially if the seller knows what they are selling and the buyer knows what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Take note that that tube on eBay is brass and will promote corrosion inside your engine where it touches steel or cast iron. You MUST run a good anticorrosive in your coolant and change it at 2 to 3 year intervals to ensure the iron touching the brass is always passivated. A steel one would be a better bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 I see. Yes dissimilar metal promotes corrosion. Hopefully after a goid flush of block and radiator I won't have to replace it, though I'm sure original is unserviceable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 56 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: Take note that that tube on eBay is brass and will promote corrosion inside your engine where it touches steel or cast iron. You MUST run a good anticorrosive in your coolant and change it at 2 to 3 year intervals to ensure the iron touching the brass is always passivated. A steel one would be a better bet. Trade-off, as the brass will last longer than steel, and for the next replacement in 25 years, the brass one won't come out in pieces like a rusted steel one. I'd choose brass over steel any day. But as Spinney points out, we need to take precautions, Here's what I use: (1) a zinc sacrificial anode suspended in the neck (not on all my vintage iron, just in my 1918 Pierce whose cooling system has iron, cast aluminum, copper, and brass components), and (2) Pencool 3000 (if you run ANY amount of antifreeze) or Pencool 2000 (no anti-freeze). Get the anode at a boat store. The Pencool is an anti-corrosion, anti-cavitation, and water pump lube used in big rigs. Initial dosage is 1 oz per quart of cooling system capacity. There's a lesser "makeup" or maintenance dose, but I keep a one-gallon jug in each car with the initial 4 oz of Pencool. Best price is on Amazon, and I find the 64 oz jug the most convenient size. You can also buy test strips as used for diesel trucks and dip a strip in your coolant every 6-9 months or so. Within the last year I've had a discussion on this with a chemist at Pen-Ray (the company), who has collector cars himself and knows our issues 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Interesting info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) The anode suspended in the radiator will only protect those parts electrically connected to it. If there is no connection between the radiator and engine, it will do nothing for the engine. How long might the steel distribution tube have lasted in this car? I think I would value to block more than the distribution tube. Edited March 29, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Hey folks, look what I found. Water distribution tool puller. Hooks to regular slide hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964carlito Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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