avgwarhawk Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 1 minute ago, biodegraded said: Thanks for the tips on sizing the rings, NTX. I really appreciate everyone's help. My first time getting into an engine and everyone's advice has given me enough confidence to keep going. I'll keep folks updated. It's not that scary inside. Be methodical, take pictures, have a good torque wrench and think ahead to the next step. She'll run again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 2 hours ago, biodegraded said: Bernie, it's the cylinder closest to the radiator. Is that #1 or #8? #1 Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 That is a really odd situation. I tried to think of how I could do that damage if I wanted to. I do that troubleshooting other types of equipment. It is not in a good spot for knock damage being 90 degrees from the plug tip. And it is 180 degrees from the exhaust valve, the hot gas route. So my calculated guess is that someone serviced the engine and put that piston back in with all the ring gaps lined up vertically, giving a straight path for the exhaust gasses. Check that when you take it apart, thinking how did this spot get the hottest. If you do find the gaps all in a vertical row, don't expect that to be the only piston they made a mistake with. Bernie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 The ring gaps in vertical alignment may account for one hole. What about the other? I'm thinking this may just be a bad casting of this particular piston. But I agree with Bernie. If the gaps are aligned in this once cylinder, it makes sense at this stage to check the other piston's rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 As for piston assy installation, you'll need a ring compressor tool. It'll wrap around the piston and compress the rings, they you carefully insert the piston/rod into the cylinder and use the wooden end of a hammer to "tap" (with a little force behind it) the piston through the ring compressor into the cylinder. When the piston crown is at deck height, the rings should be contacting the cylinder wall, very possibly just under the ridge. The ring compressor has a size range of cylinder bore diameters that it will work with. Be sure to put some rubber hose over the rod bolts to keep from "marking" the rod bearing journal of the crank. There are some other, fancier, ring compressors where the piston/ring/rod assy is carefully pushed into a decreasing-diameter hole as the rings are progressively compressed until everything is all in the cylinder. Just make sure, with either took, that the rings are square in their slots, staggered end gaps, and go gently. When everything's in place in the cylinder, you'll know it. As always, a light coat of motor oil on all of these things is needed, as from a rag that has been soaked and then wrung out in motor oil. Before doing the piston installation, you can use a lintless shop towel to clean everything up, then use the oily rag to oil the cylinder walls, too. Be sure there's a drip pan under all of this. Just pay attention to how things came apart and reinstall in reverse order. Don't try to skimp on putting a light coat of oil on everything that moves. It'll be a little messier, but no worries about things not having an oil film before you prime-oil the engine before starting. As mentioned, a good torque wrench is needed, too. IF something doesn't look right or seem right, stop right there and make sure what is or is not going on! Enjoy! NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 You tube is your friend. So is Mudbone who has video of every step for piston installation. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Corbin, any movement on this problem? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 On 6/6/2017 at 3:30 PM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Corbin, any movement on this problem? Ben I finally got the piston out. It looks weirder than I imagined with large burnout gaps in the side. All the rings were broken so I couldn't tell if the gaps were aligned. Maybe the broken rings caused the holes in the piston or maybe the holes caused the rings to break? I checked the piston and it seems to be standard size, so now I know what size I need. I also got the head back from the machine shop so as soon as I get a new piston and rings, I'll be ready to reassemble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) Is the piston ring even present? I see the oil ring. That piston is a mess. What does the cylinder wall look like? Is there any huge chunks of in the oil pan? Edited June 14, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 3 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: What does the cylinder wall look like? Cannot imagine it being good. I have seen broken rings in severely worn engines that had a lot of taper (larger at the top of the cylinder --- the rings have to expand at the top and contract at the bottom and the flexing breaks them; or new rings were installed without removing the ridge at the top) Measure the cylinders at the top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 You REALLY need to have the bores checked for taper, roundness, and damage before you put any more time and money into it. Putting any time/money into "rebuilding" an engine with worn or damaged cylinder bores is a fool's errand. Any competent engine shop can do the measuring and if the bores are deemed usable have them remove the ridge and break the glaze for you. Easy with the proper tools and knowledge. A potential block damaging situation if you are fumbling your way through..........Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 7 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: Is the piston ring even present? I see the oil ring. That piston is a mess. What does the cylinder wall look like? Is there any huge chunks of in the oil pan? The rings were broken and fell off when I pulled it out. They were broken in several places. So they are not in the pictures but they all came out. No huge chunks in the pan. I can feel one scratch on the cylinder wall, but it is very slight. Overall, I was surprised the cylinder wall wasn't obviously worse. I have not checked taper. The ridge on this cylinder was very slight. Just enough to feel but not enough to catch a finger nail on. So I didn't even bother reaming it or honing it down before removing the piston. I'll try and check taper myself with my digital calipers and a bore gauge. Any advice on how bad it can get before I need to bore? I'm hoping that because there wasn't a big ridge and the piston is standard size, the cylinder won't be too bad. I really don't want to pull the whole block, so I'm going to lean toward putting in a new piston and driving it unless it's way out of spec. Thanks everyone for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 What is peculiar is the burnt piston top. Certainly this was the cause of destroyed rings. Yes, check taper. In my mind, the lack of ridge at the top of the cylinder leads me to believe there is not much mileage on this rebuild. The piston with hole on the top was a result of detonation or perhaps simply a weak spot in the piston. This resulted in a snowball of destruction to the rings. I suspect the cylinder will be fine with a hone. New piston and rings. That is just the positive thinking in me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Update on my situation. Since I had to buy a whole set of rings, I went ahead and pulled all the pistons with the goal of replacing all the rings. Boy am I glad I did (at least so far; I may yet screw things up bad enough to make me regret it). Four other pistons had broken rings. And I don't think it was just from pushing the pistons out, based on the condition of the rings. Two had the top compression ring broken, one had both compression rings broken, and one had the top ring broken so badly that it deformed the groove to the point where one small piece of broken ring was actually under another piece of broken ring (i.e. the groove is now double the width in that spot). So that leads me to my latest question: anyone ever regroove a piston and put a spacer in? Or have a custom size ring made? I found a company in Cleveland that can make custom ring sizes but I don't know the price. I really don't want to have to buy a whole set of pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 A bore that had a broken ring in it is almost always unusable. There are almost always vertical grooves. In the unlikely event that the bores are usable, and are standard size, the only cheap way to do this is gonna be another set of pistons from a junk engine. If the pins are pressed (I think they are) then leave the rods from the junker on them. The piston you posted a picture of is unsaveable even with an unlimited budget. It's time to really scrutinize those bores. I will be shocked if it doesn't need boring. Good luck with the project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Bloo, pins are not pressed. They are clamped in the rod. Answered your pm, Corbin. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 12 hours ago, biodegraded said: Update on my situation. Since I had to buy a whole set of rings, I went ahead and pulled all the pistons with the goal of replacing all the rings. Boy am I glad I did (at least so far; I may yet screw things up bad enough to make me regret it). Four other pistons had broken rings. And I don't think it was just from pushing the pistons out, based on the condition of the rings. Two had the top compression ring broken, one had both compression rings broken, and one had the top ring broken so badly that it deformed the groove to the point where one small piece of broken ring was actually under another piece of broken ring (i.e. the groove is now double the width in that spot). So that leads me to my latest question: anyone ever regroove a piston and put a spacer in? Or have a custom size ring made? I found a company in Cleveland that can make custom ring sizes but I don't know the price. I really don't want to have to buy a whole set of pistons. It would say the numerous broken rings is a result of improper installation. Incorrect tool was used or the installer was simply to rough when installing. Perhaps did not care. I would look to purchase new pistons to replace the pistons that are unserviceable. New rings installed with correct tool and care. Can you offer more pictures of the affected cylinders and pistons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 I know that if time and money were unlimited, I would probably bore the cylinders due to the high number of broken rings. However, given my current circumstances, I've decided to hone the cylinders and install new rings and hope to get 10-20k on the engine before I need to take more drastic action. That being said, I have completed the honing of the cylinders and all the pistons with new rings are finally installed. I'm almost ready to reinstall the head. My question today is about lifters. I took out all the lifters to inspect and found some that have some pretty severe pitting. I made sure to keep them in order. So, given the knowledge that many rings were broken and I'm only honing and installing new rings hoping for a moderate lifetime on this rebuild, should I worry about replacing these lifters? Are any of these OK to reuse? I've attached some pictures of the lifters as well as the cylinder walls post honing. There is some vertical scoring, but they aren't deep enough to really feel with my fingers, so I'm just going to go with it. As always, everyone's help is much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 These lifters should be replaced. Chunks of metal missing leads me to believe these lifters will continue to lose chunks of metal. What does the cam look like? I replaced my lifters and left the original cam in. Worked just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 I can't inspect the cam very carefully as the engine is still in the car and I can only look at it through the lifter holes. But I definitely don't want to replace the cam. I'm already in over my head and am just hoping to make it out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, biodegraded said: I can't inspect the cam very carefully as the engine is still in the car and I can only look at it through the lifter holes. But I definitely don't want to replace the cam. I'm already in over my head and am just hoping to make it out alive. If the cam is not pitted I would replace the just the lifters. This is what I did without any issues. Use engine rebuild lube on the new lifters when installing. Also, the picture of your honed cylinder, the hone pattern looks good. I think your repairs will be successful. Looking forward to a video of your engine running again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 I would definitely replace those lifters. If you do, make sure to do a cam break-in just like if you were replacing the camshaft. Get it started immediately (no excessive cranking, time it precisely the first time), and run it up to 2000 rpm or so for at least 20 minutes. The problem here if you're on a budget? New hydraulic lifters for a 263 are very expensive. The ones in your hand, however, are toast. Are they all like that? You could get away with just replacing the bad ones (and breaking them in correctly). http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-16-lifters-1948-49-50-51-52-53-HYDRAULIC-new-straight-8-263-320-VL1H-hyd-/151257194374 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 They aren't all like this. I posted pics of all the ones with pitting. I see that CARS lists individual lifters for sale. So I think I'll just replace these five or six that are bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, biodegraded said: They aren't all like this. I posted pics of all the ones with pitting. I see that CARS lists individual lifters for sale. So I think I'll just replace these five or six that are bad. It's OK to replace just the bad lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Update and serious question. First the update. I got the top end put back together. Got the oil pan back on. Went to fill her with Fluids. While filling with coolant I heard a significant leak. That's when I discovered that I had forgotten to install the temperature sensor in the cylinder head and coolant was freely following out of that hole. Installed the temp sensor, got everything else buttoned up and she wouldn't start. Did a compression check and there were serious issues. Several cylinders had zero compression and most others were low (70-80). I realized I hadn't adjusted the rocker arms/valves, so I did that. That was my problem as all cylinders except one were now reading 120. The one low was reading 100. This was a good sight better than what it was, so I thought I'd still try to fire her up. After some coaxing, she started up and sounded ok. She had a little stutter every few seconds, but was otherwise strong. I let her run for about 20 min at what I guessed was 2500 rpm (no tach). Then I went to change the oil as I had planned. To my chagrin, I saw bright green coolant coming out of the oil pan when I pulled the plug. A good amount of coolant and oil came out for a few seconds and then it became more and more just oil. Here is my serious question: did I botch the head gasket installation or is it possible that not installing the temp sensor allowed coolant into the oil? Should I change the oil, start it up and let it run for a few minutes and see if more coolant gets in or is that asking for trouble? I will say that I had some trouble with installing the cylinder head. It took some persuading to get it to seat right on the pins. I did not put any kind of sealant on the gasket. As always, the help is very much appreciated. IMG_0788.MOV Edited September 10, 2017 by biodegraded Clarify (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Dad always told me to use the copper coat or Indian shellac head gasket sealer. Not using a sealer might be your issue. I don't see how not installing the temp sensor would be an issue, unless it was capable of running the fluid into the engine from the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) I don't think there's any passage between the coolant temp sensor and any oil passages, but I'd like someone else to back me up on that. At this point, I think it might be worth renting a cooling system pressure tester to pressurize the cooling system and see where the breach is. If you have a borescope for your smartphone (or just a borescope), you can look in all the cylinders to see if any are leaking. It seems like you'll probably be doing the head again, this time with a few friends or an engine hoist. I'm wondering if you damaged the head gasket sliding the head around to get it into position. It's really heavy! If you DO have to remove the head, check the bottoms of all your new lifters for wear. All of that cranking with no compression (and no oil splash!) isn't good on cams/lifters that are trying to get used to each other. Good luck! Edited September 10, 2017 by Aaron65 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I have one last possibility that might avoid disaster. Tell me what you think. I didn't want to remove the distributor because I didn't want to have to redo the timing. Which means I left the cover for the lifter valley in place. Therefore, that lifter valley cover did not get a new gasket or sealant between it and the head. I did try and squirt a little rtv silicone into the space between the cover and the head, but I don't expect it really made a good seal. So here's my thought and my last hope for not having to pull the head again. The temp sensor hole sits right above that lifter cover. What if while it was pouring out of that hole, it found a crack in the sealant and leaked straight into the lifter valley? My idea for testing this is to dye some engine oil with UV leak testing dye. Then pour it over the temp sensor to simulate as if it were coming out of that hole. Then drain the oil and see if any of the UV dye made it into the pan. If it did, then maybe that's what happened and I don't have to pull the head again. If it doesn't (or if I see more coolant in the oil, obviously) then I'll pull the head again. What do you guys think of my plan? Am I just in denial or is that a plausible, testable theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) Pressurizing the cooling system and checking for leakdown will help verify your theory very quickly. If there's a cooling system leak big enough that antifreeze is getting into the oil, the pressure should drop immediately. Edited September 11, 2017 by Aaron65 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 If I was in this situation I would drain the oil and replace the filter. Refill oil. Check antifreeze level. Run the engine and see if antifreeze gets into the pan again after running the engine for the exact amount of time you did prior to finding antifreeze in oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I see a few if's. If the head gasket was compromised into a cylinder, causing the leak, you would have seen steam coming from the exhaust. Not just evaporation of dampness in the system, but steam. and lots of it. Also you might have seen back pressure in the radiator. If the head gasket was just compromised on the water jacket then chances are you already have more coolant in the oil pan, as nothing would stop it from dripping through the damaged section with the engine off. Did you have the head to block surface checked to make sure it wasn't warped? Have you pulled the plugs to look for coolant on the plug tips? If you find any then it's back to the head gasket routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I did not see significant steam or any white smoke coming from exhaust. I didn't check for back pressure in the radiator because I didn't realize this could be a problem until I went to change the oil. If I run it again, I'll take the radiator cap off and see if I get bubbling. If I can find an inexpensive radiator pressure gauge or way to do a coolant leak down, I may try that, too. I'll look to see if more coolant has dripped into the pan since it's been sitting. I did have the head surfaced, but not the block, as that remained in the car. And I'll check the plug tips as well. Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 You probably can "borrow" a coolant pressure test kit from your local parts store. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biodegraded Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Update: I tested the coolant pressure using a borrowed test kit (thanks for the suggestion, Ben!). After tightening a few leaky hose clamps, the system held 10psi with no problem for an extended time. Changed the oil and didn't see any more coolant. Then it dawned on me. When I first filled up the coolant and had the leak out of the temp sensor hole, I didn't have the spark plugs in. That sensor hole is right above the spark plug hole for cylinder #8. I'm sure it ran right down into the cylinder and I didn't even notice. ??♂️ It sat for multiple days like that before I did anything in terms of cranking it. This is bad for the lubrication in cylinder#8, but I think it at least allowed the coolant to leak down into the crank case. I also cranked it once or twice before putting the spark plugs in. So I'm pretty sure I didn't have any fluids left in there by the time I went to actually start it, which I'm hoping means I avoided any type of hydrolock damage. This mistake could have been disastrous, but by luck I think I avoided the worst of it. The way it's running smoothly now confirms this in my mind, but I'll continue to monitor for signs of a blown head gasket or any other signs of coolant in the oil. Thanks to everyone for their help and guidance in this long, but satisfying rebuild. I'm just so glad she's finally running again! Special thanks to Ben Bruce for locating those used pistons for me! Attached is a video of it running with the valve cover of that I took while doing a final adjustment to eliminate a tick. If any of you with more experienced ears hear anything I should investigate, let me know. IMG_0799.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Glad it is sorted for you! Enjoy your hard efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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