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Does anyone know of a resource that might help in telling us the modern day name of olde paint colours?

 

My 1926 Franklin has a metal stamping that forms the centre part of the front floorboard - it sits over the gearbox and on each side supports the wooden footboards that reach from there to the left and right side of the body.

 

The factory drawing for it calls for it to be "Special Duco Gray 2443131"

 

And then the rubber floor mat that went around this, but didn't cover it, is specified to be "Color to match Duco 2443131"

 

The floorboards were to be "One coat Everjet Black", but it seems like they were going for a gray finished look with the rubber mat and gearbox cover.

 

So - any ideas on just what gray 2443131 might have been?

Or doesn't it matter because I have zero chance of buying gray rubber matting?

 

Roger

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Duco paint was made by the Dupont company. They were succeeded by ICI and now PPG Industries. These paint companies often have the formula for paints going back to the 1920s. You could contact your local PPG paint dealer and ask them to contact their supplier, they get this kind of request all the time. For very old paints not in the current catalog your local dealer will contact headquarters and get the formula, then mix it for you.

 

Or if any of the original paint is intact you can polish and wax it,  and match the original color.

 

It sounds to me like the floor was supposed to be all matching gray with the exposed metal trans cover surrounded by rubber mats. The black floor boards did not show.

 

I think I would get some gray Tremclad rust paint and paint the trans cover and the rubber mats. Tremclad is an enamel that dries to a rubbery flexible consistency. I have used it on floor mats and vinyl upholstery and it never cracked or peeled.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Dupont sold it's auto paint line to Caryle Grpoup, who renamed it  Axalta.

 

It is still a PPG competitor, not same ownership.

 

ICI used the name Duco for house paint also.

 

ICI polyester film division was bought by DuPont, but I digress.

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7 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Or if any of the original paint is intact you can polish and wax it,  and match the original color.

 

Sadly no - it's either rusted or seemingly replaced by black at some stage.

 

7 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

 

It sounds to me like the floor was supposed to be all matching gray with the exposed metal trans cover surrounded by rubber mats. The black floor boards did not show.

 

Yes, that's what I have assumed from what the drawings say, and the floorboards have the black paint on them still, but of course no sign of what would be a now 90 year old rubber mat.

 

7 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

 

I think I would get some gray Tremclad rust paint and paint the trans cover and the rubber mats. Tremclad is an enamel that dries to a rubbery flexible consistency. I have used it on floor mats and vinyl upholstery and it never cracked or peeled.

 

Thanks - I hadn't heard of Tremclad.

I did find a source for gray rubber matting, but it was UK based, so not exactly cheap,

https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/categories/vintage-car-parts-rubber-and-sponge-parts-sheet-matting

 

but there are also suppliers in the US it seems.

 

Thanks!

 

Roger

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26 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

Does it specify "rubber floor mat"  might it have been that colour gray but be "battleship linoleum"?

 

The parts book calls it the "Front Rubber Floor Mat" and the drawing says it was to be purchased from the "Ohio Rubber and Textile Co. Detroit Mich" and specifies it be Rubber "Color to match Duco 2443131"

 

Roger

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Well there I go, learned something new today.  I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were wrong.  Just that there are people that ask for something that is not what they really what the want or need.

I once read that it is not the things that we don't know , it's the things that we know that aren't so, that cause us trouble.

Thanks

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Could you use modern PPG single stage urethane (Concept Paint line) with the flex additive? You might be better having the local paint jobber use the camera to get a spot on match.

 

Restoration Supply offers ribbed and pyramid rubber matting.

Edited by Friartuck (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Friartuck said:

Restoration Supply offers ribbed and pyramid rubber matting.

 

Yes, I found that - only in black it seems. There are some places selling a few different designs in Gray too that I have found - in the UK as I linked above, and in the US.

 

So unless something else startling reveals itself I am thinking I'll get some Gray rubber and then match the paint on the transmission cover to that - probably easier than trying to match transmission cover and painting the rubber to some mythical 90 year old Duco colour.

 

Roger

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So to wrap this up now...

 

In sandblasting the transmission cover I didn't find any grey paint on it, and I've been told by a Franklin expert that despite what the drawings call for - the Gray Duco 2443131 - Franklin never actually painted the cover gray or used gray mats - cars that today are still original have black paint on the transmission cover and black mats.

 

So the drawings while it's great that they still exist, aren't always right.

 

The much easier black it is :-)

 

Roger

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I have an original carpet and it is of a grey colour. I have seen other original Franklin carpets which are the same colour.

I am working on making a copy with the Franklin drawings and Devcon material which can be tinted grey...the plug/mold will probably be made with a laser scanner on 1/8 acrylic. A clay imprint photo is also attached.

andré

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5 hours ago, Franklin25 said:

 

I have an original carpet and it is of a grey colour. I have seen other original Franklin carpets which are the same colour.

 

 

André

 

Do you mean carpet or rubber mat?

 

Roger

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@PFitz wrote to me suggesting that Franklin never made gray mats - that they were all black, and what is seen these days is faded black, rather than being gray.

 

I have sandblasted more than half of the metal transmission cover (until the nozzle wore out on the free sandblaster I was given) and didn't see any gray yet - just rust and black, but was planning to try and chip some of the remaining black to see if it had gray under it as the drawing suggests it was supposed to be.

 

I've written to several different places recommended about olde paint colors to see if anyone knows what color Duco Gray 2443131 (or Duco 244834 mentioned in a preceding drawing (#31362)) might have been, but so far the replies are all "we don't have records of that".

 

I do have most, but not all of the original Transmission Cover Escutcheon #33627 left - it's meant to be "Delbee Gray Non Blooming Rubber", and I ground into that and it certainly seems to have originally been gray.

 

Roger

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Edited by theKiwi (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, Franklin25 said:

Well, the "fact" is that my original rubber front mat is grey not black...So Paul, Franklin did at least buy a grey one from Ohio Rubber and Textile Co, from Detroit.

@

 

How about the metal transmission cover - what colour is that painted? That's what I've been trying to find out - what kind of gray is it?

 

Roger

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 0:00 AM, Franklin25 said:

Well, the "fact" is that my original rubber front mat is grey not black...So Paul, Franklin did at least buy a grey one from Ohio Rubber and Textile Co, from Detroit.

@

Thanks Franklin25. Good to add that to the data base. My suggestion to Rodger is based on yours being the first gray mat I've heard of in 35 years of looking and working on Franklins full time.

 

Does your gray mat's molded design match the drawing ?

 

There are a number of Series 11s with their black mats still surviving. And those mats match the molded pattern of the factory drawing exactly.  I sent pix of one to Rodger, of a NYS car that comes to the Trek often.  

 

And, I've never found a trace of gray paint on any of the metal center section of the floor boards of those cars that the mat is long gone. Just the original Franklin, dip-painted black gloss over acid-washed steel, like the other stamped steel parts of the body and engine aredone in.

 

Paul

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I'm going to assume it's a serial number thing perhaps? IE up to a particular number they were gray, after that number they were black?

 

My car is #162935. I have no traces of the mat remaining, but from taking the center transmission cover out and sanding and sandblasting it I can find no trace of gray paint - just black.

 

André - is your gray mat in car number 160726?

 

Paul - what are the number(s) of the car(s) you've seen black mats and covers in?

 

Roger

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Rodger,

 

After looking at the drawings, I see that  they don't show your car's body style as having a front rubber mat. Just a carpet front mat. They use the term "mat" rather loosely.

 

That might explain why you only found black paint on that floor board center section. As for the gray rubber transmission tower seal, they could simply may have been using up stock, or your carpet may have been gray ? What color is your upholstery ?

 

Take a look at drawing 34366. You'll see that it lists carpet for Victoria Coupe (which is really more Victoria and less coupe in the general sense). Unfortunately there is rarely any listing of carpet colors on the drawings, just the supplier's color codes/numbers.  Sometimes a drawing, and/or, dealer bulletin will mention Franklin "trip codes". And again, there is no known factory documents surviving that list what those trim code colors are.  

 

Drawing 33321 (which includes 33318, 33319, & 33320) is the rubber mat for the other body styles, but there's no listing for Victoria.  And, Franklin25's car is not a Victoria, it's a Sport Touring.

 

FYI, the other series 11's I've seen that have a black front rubber mat are both sedans and they don't have the larger diamond pattern that Franklin25's picture shows. They have the same tiny ovals, and the same boarder pattern as drawing 33321 specifies.  Here's a picture of one in a 27 Sedan. Still looking for my pix of the original 26 sedan with the same rubber mat. 

 

I can't find any drawing that matches the diamond pattern texture of Franklin25's picture. 

 

Maybe another piece of the past that will remain a mystery ?

 

Paul

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Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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59 minutes ago, PFitz said:

After looking at the drawings, I see that  they don't show your car's body style as having a front rubber mat. Just a carpet front mat. They use the term "mat" rather loosely.

 

My car is a Sedan, so is covered by drawing 33321, and as listed there should have a rubber mat.

 

59 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

That might explain why you only found black paint on that floor board center section. As for the gray rubber transmission tower seal, they could simply may have been using up stock, or your carpet may have been gray ? What color is your upholstery ?

 

My upholstery is gray, but it has been redone some time in the last decade. I haven't seen any remnants of what would have been the original to know what colour it would have been.

 

59 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

Take a look at drawing 34366. You'll see that it lists carpet for Victoria Coupe (which is really more Victoria and less coupe in the general sense). Unfortunately there is rarely any listing of carpet colors on the drawings, just the supplier's color codes/numbers.  Sometimes a drawing, and/or, dealer bulletin will mention Franklin "trip codes". And again, there is no known factory documents surviving that list what those trim code colors are.  

 

Drawing 34366 is not relevant to my car as far as I can tell - my car is not a Victoria Sedan. 

 

59 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

Drawing 33321 (which includes 33318, 33319, & 33320) is the rubber mat for the other body styles, but there's no listing for Victoria.  And, Franklin25's car is not a Victoria, it's a Sport Touring.

 

Franklin25's car has a gray mat and gray transmission cover. His mat has the small ovals.

 

Roger (without the d!)

 

 

 

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Rodger,

 

Ok sedan. Sorry, got yours mixed up with another series 11A owner currently responding with.

 

The Series 11 parts book does not show a change of rubber  mat for your car after a certain number car, as it does with some of the other body style front mats of Series 11A & B. I don't know why there is no mention of a black mat on any of the drawings, when examples of them survive for both 11A & 11B.  Maybe that other Duco number that was changed might be black ????   Or, there is a missing drawing/drawings that explain more. The drawing files are missing a lot of drawings for which there are still cards in the card file. Some have notes about a drawing being discarded. Many are just missing. And not just some in a number squance, but whole sections of both body and mechanical parts drawings. 

 

Hopefully more examples of 11A & B mats will show up, if only to see how many of each color survive.  But I suspect that there won't be many. Having worked on that Series 11B in the picture, I know they are very delicate. The rubber has become very brittle with age. Just gently taking the mat out of the car with the owner and I  lifting carefully, it spilt in several new places.  Seeing how easily it was falling apart explains why so many have been replaced with carpet over the years.  

 

Paul

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The thing that is more likely to have survived with some evidence of its original colour is the transmission cover plate.

 

André's @Franklin25 car clearly has gray paint on the transmission cover still.

 

Mine I could find no trace of gray paint in amongst the black and rust as I sanded and sand/bead blasted it. The paint remaining on it that could well have been original was definitely black. There was also a lot of black paint on it that was not original. But no gray.

 

Roger

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:34 PM, theKiwi said:

The thing that is more likely to have survived with some evidence of its original colour is the transmission cover plate.

 

André's @Franklin25 car clearly has gray paint on the transmission cover still.

 

Mine I could find no trace of gray paint in amongst the black and rust as I sanded and sand/bead blasted it. The paint remaining on it that could well have been original was definitely black. There was also a lot of black paint on it that was not original. But no gray.

 

Roger

If there was no primer under the oldest looking black paint in where it's tough to spray paint, such as down in the groove for the tower seal, that helps it lean towards black being the original color. Franklin dip painted all the non-body parts in black gloss enamel, with no primer used, just acid-etched. You can often see runs/sags in some of the parts and drips where they dried on the lowest edges/corners showing it was hung up to dry after dip painting. 

 

Paul 

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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  • 2 years later...

Duco 3443131

Well if the transmission top was painted grey you have a sample below ( My original Touring). The Front Compartment Floor Mat was also suppose to be  DUCO procured from Ohio Rubber & Textile Co. Detroit Mich. The photo is from a Sedan (Annas) which appear of a similar grey. My carpet looks closer to black ( Is it age or QC  of the days). I am making black ones.

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The Annas car mat is most defiantly black, but aged and faded. I've worked on that car and had the chance to handle it in sun light many times. And I got to see it again at the Trek this year and congratulate it's new owner. Yes, Tommy finally sold it, and it's in very good hands again. 

 

That Annas mat looks gray from changes with age, plus lots of fine scratches that make it look lighter in color, and  over 90 years of dust/dirt ground into it. Plus, rubber is not naturally black, it is a much lighter color.  The black is a pigment added and in some forms of old rubber it will look lighter as the pigment becomes faded with age. You see the same thing in rubber parts not even in sun light, such as suspension, engine and body mounts, electrical insulation, old tires, and driveline parts. The original rubber fabric rings, that I rebuild for fan and clutch hubs, often turns gray-ish black with age. On many of the parts where the surface is grayed from dirt and age oxidation, fading, etc, once that surface is cleaned off  you can see what is obviously black rubber underneath.

 

So, just like trying to find the true color of paint samples, you have to be careful. You can't always go by the aged surface because of how it has color shifted with age and exposure to ozone, wear, and other environmental effects. 

 

So far Franklin25 seems to have the only gray mat. 

 

Paul

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On 3/3/2017 at 9:40 AM, theKiwi said:

Does anyone know of a resource that might help in telling us the modern day name of olde paint colours?

 

My 1926 Franklin has a metal stamping that forms the centre part of the front floorboard - it sits over the gearbox and on each side supports the wooden footboards that reach from there to the left and right side of the body.

 

The factory drawing for it calls for it to be "Special Duco Gray 2443131"

 

And then the rubber floor mat that went around this, but didn't cover it, is specified to be "Color to match Duco 2443131"

 

The floorboards were to be "One coat Everjet Black", but it seems like they were going for a gray finished look with the rubber mat and gearbox cover.

 

So - any ideas on just what gray 2443131 might have been?

Or doesn't it matter because I have zero chance of buying gray rubber matting?

 

Roger

Backtrack - someone (and just not recalling their name currently) was on the Facebook page for the Franklin Automobile Enthusiast page and is in the process of reproducing the grey floor mat (perhaps between Thanksgiving and Christmas) - the first one looked nice too.   If you can get one, then I would just match that color. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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