theKiwi Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) I'm looking to find a new supply of these "eye terminals" that are used in many places on my 1926 Franklin Series 11A. I believe that they might have been made by a shoe company - in part because the Franklin Parts book that describes them notes "Light friction type (3/16" hole). Hand punch for attaching 30 x 31 terminals can be secured from United Shoe Machinery Co., Boston, Mass." I did find a Patent applied for in 1923 for a machine to fit these to the wire in one operation, crippling the legs over the wire, and closing the shoulder over the wire insulation. This patent was to an employee of the United Shoe Machinery Company. They are not soldered to the wire - the wire is twisted, then wrapped once around the eyelet end and then the legs of it folded over. I've spent hours looking online at the places like R I Wire, YNZ, Brillman and other places to no avail. Does anyone know 1) what they were actually called, and 2) where I might buy some? Thanks!! Roger Edited February 27, 2017 by theKiwi (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friartuck Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 I call these Ring terminals though I've heard Eye terminals used before. Brillman Brillman should have them. Otherwise Restoration Supply in Escondido, Calf. Page 5 of their catalog. Restoration Supply The shoe lace reference makes sense as it is a variation of a show lace eyelet. I would still solder even though twisted may have been used originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsupon1 Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Try here they may have something. http://www.restorationstuff.com/pdf/RestorationSupplyCompany.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidAU Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) I cannot view your pictures but from your description it sounds like you have what is called a Ross Courtney electrical terminal. They were used on some of the larger English cars and also some US cars mainly on the generator wires. To my knowledge they are no longer available but if someone knows where you can get them, I for one would be most interested Edited February 27, 2017 by DavidAU (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 3 hours ago, DavidAU said: I cannot view your pictures They are still showing for me, but I'll attach a couple of them to this reply again... 3 hours ago, DavidAU said: but from your description it sounds like you have what is called a Ross Courtney electrical terminal. They were used on some of the larger English cars and also some US cars mainly on the generator wires. They are not the same as the Ross Courtney - I found an olde ad for Ross Courtney terminals and they are a bit different. Scroll partway down this page (well for some reason I can't post a link to the page here, but can post the direct link to the image?????) 3 hours ago, DavidAU said: To my knowledge they are no longer available but if someone knows where you can get them, I for one would be most interested So that makes two of us :-) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 4 hours ago, DavidAU said: I cannot view your pictures but from your description it sounds like you have what is called a Ross Courtney electrical terminal. They were used on some of the larger English cars and also some US cars mainly on the generator wires. To my knowledge they are no longer available but if someone knows where you can get them, I for one would be most interested David - whatever image you posted here isn't showing up for me... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 On 26/02/2017 at 7:05 AM, tomsupon1 said: Try here they may have something. http://www.restorationstuff.com/pdf/RestorationSupplyCompany.pdf Thanks Tom - I've pored over that catalogue, and a number of others from the likes of Brillman, YNZ to no avail - nothing the same as these ones has shown up. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Gee Tom I wish I could help you My 28 DB Senior has the same terminals and they were soldered as well I tried in vain to get them solder free so I could reuse them but to no avail If you gently heat the brass to anneal it they may be easier to salvage Just remember to let them cool down before bending the tabs up Cheers Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Twer it me I would Google "shoe eyelets". I would buy whatever size I needed along with the setting tool. I would solder the eyelet to an appropriate sized ring terminal. I would then insert the wire and use the setting tool to flare the eyelet over, just like the original. Might also solder, or not. Necessity is the mother of both invention and improvisation.............Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 There was discussion of whether to solder or not on another thread on these fora. Solder will result in a brittle connection to the wire and possible poor contact. Don't solder! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Proper soldering of terminals will fix a host of bad/poor crimping issues along with some corrosion issues( high resistance). Lots of original connections have solder where the integrity of the wire to terminal interface is critical. Edited February 28, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I refer you to this thread where crimped connections are discussed. The recommendation is to lay off the solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: I refer you to this thread where crimped connections are discussed. The recommendation is to lay off the solder. Interesting discussion. I guess 90 years ago Franklin were confused too - here's the engineering drawing for the wires that go from the fuse box on the firewall to the headlights - the left end goes in to the headlight, the right end has these "shoelace eyelet" terminals and goes on the fuse box. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Modern connectors, especially aeronautical application types are designed to be crimped only. They typically are plated, as are the aircraft wire's conductors and are crimped with tools designed to apply a set force through a set of jaws correctly sized for the terminal and wire. No need for solder. The terminals we're working with are usually generic as are the crimping tools. The conductors are un-plated. Twer it me and I was working with used or repurposed terminals, often bare brass, I would solder. Lets face it. These cars aren't going to exceed mach 1 or be put in service 10 hours a day for 20 years. I submit you can't live long enough to use your old car to the point of vibration caused terminal failure. OTOH, corrosion never sleeps. So, crimp or solder as the need determines. Either way will work just fine...........Bob Edited February 28, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) How many of you have some of these to be sure that the crimp is "correct"? These are special crimping pliars that need to be matched to the terminal that you are crimping and the correct size of wire. Crimping pliars ARE NOT generic where one size fits all. Every one of these has a ratchet mechanism that will not let you release the clamping force until you have completed the crimp. You must have enough strength to complete the crimp properly. The handle self releases at the end of the crimp jaw travel. If you do not have a set of these then it would be in your best interest to crimp and solder with rosin core solder to a temperature just hot enough to flow good solder. Every terminal manufacturer has their own crimping pliars for their terminals with specifications on how to properly crimp their terminals to the wire to ensure a correct mechanical connection. I did automotive wiring for an OEM and worked with the terminal & connector suppliers. PS: these pliars are between $100.00-$250.00 each. Edited February 28, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude Light Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 One issue that aircraft do not face is the corrosion problem present in the automotive environment. So you design for the environment that the part will be used in. The Franklin folks used soldered in the more corrosive environment and the faster/cheaper lace and crimp for under the dash - probably not confused, just most cost effective solution for the environment. For aircraft it's all about vibration and their connector solutions would never hold up in an automotive environment. How many of you have had to repair (via solder probably) the stupid crimped connectors most trailer manufacturers use? My 1923 Studebaker had all soldered terminals originally, so that is how I restored it. That all said, my restored car isn't going to be seeing a significant corrosive environment so either soldered or crimped would work fine. If you want to restore your car to 100% correctness then copy the original design. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) I found "fret lugs" which look like the round portion but doesn't have the leg for crimping. Check it out at lxelectricalaccessories.com. They are on page 5 of their 47 page catalog. They have two sizes. Part number LX0705 and LX0706. I tried to transfer an image from their catalog but could not do it. I think the LX0705 is closest to the size you are looking for. (5MM = approximately .200) Edited March 1, 2017 by fordrodsteven (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 4:51 PM, theKiwi said: I'm looking to find a new supply of these "eye terminals" that are used in many places on my 1926 Franklin Series 11A. I believe that they might have been made by a shoe company - in part because the Franklin Parts book that describes them notes "Light friction type (3/16" hole). Hand punch for attaching 30 x 31 terminals can be secured from United Shoe Machinery Co., Boston, Mass." I found "fret lugs" which look like the round portion but doesn't have the leg for crimping. Check it out at lxelectricalaccessories.com. They are on page 5 of their 47 page catalog. They have two sizes. Part number LX0705 and LX0706. I tried to transfer an image from their catalog but could not do it. I think the LX0705 is closest to the size you are looking for. (5MM = approximately .200) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, fordrodsteven said: I found "fret lugs" which look like the round portion but doesn't have the leg for crimping. Check it out at lxelectricalaccessories.com. They are on page 5 of their 47 page catalog. They have two sizes. Part number LX0705 and LX0706. I tried to transfer an image from their catalog but could not do it. Interesting - that result, and this other one I found are both Australian results - similar, but not the same as the Ross Courtney terminals mentioned above. https://scoresby.awm.mmem.com.au/lxplx705.html?rl=1 Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordrodsteven Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I looked at your link and it sent me to a part that is exactly the LX0705 part that I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Larry, I have several different types of those crimpers, insulated, non-insulated, coax and open barrel (Molex style). But my go to crimper is the Ideal 30-500 with the appropriate die. YMMV I have seen the eyelets the OP needs on electric motors also. But I have no source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 25 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said: Larry, I have several different types of those crimpers, insulated, non-insulated, coax and open barrel (Molex style). But my go to crimper is the Ideal 30-500 with the appropriate die. YMMV I have seen the eyelets the OP needs on electric motors also. But I have no source. The correct tool used properly makes the job easier and durable quality repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 So here's where I've ended up. Have managed to track down the right sized eyelets - from a knife manufacturing supplies website of all places, and the right sized brass ring terminals from DigiKey, and a hammer powered riveting tool, and am set to replicate these connectors finally... The ring terminals come as a strip - luckily the sold them one at a time as I didn't think I needed a whole roll of 1,000!!! The eyelets come from their supplier in multiples of 1,000, but luckily USAKnifemaker.com buys them 1,000 at a time and then repackages them down to 25 in a package - again I didn't think I needed 1,000! What I was trying to replicate on the left, with what I've come up with on the right. Now for the barn to warm up above 15° F so I can get out there and see if it really works as I see it in my mind's eye. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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