Issues Associated With Daily Driving Antique Packard

[Guest ClassicCarDriver1]

Question: A client inherits a Packard Twelve and wants to use it as a driver instead of a museum piece. He has been advised at that this may impact the car’s value, but he wants to drive it anyway. Assuming the engine has 

 

1. How is this idea feasible, given the fragility of the vehicle? Has anyone daily driven an antique automobile?
2. How long can a properly restored Packard 12 run, anyway?
3. What is the expected diminution of the car’s value?

[keiser31]

When my 1931 Dodge Brothers coupe is running (in process of brake rebuild right now), I drive it daily. I treat it as my every day car. It's fun. It's better for the car than letting it sit. There can be trouble insuring it for every day use. I was lucky enough to find a company who doesn't care what year it is. Sorry I cannot tell you more about driving a V12 daily.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[cahartley]

As far as I'm concerned NOT driving a car is the worst possible thing for it.

If he means he wants to keep the car AS a driver good for him.

The only thing worse than not driving any car is to throw salt all over it........ 

[Guest ClassicCarDriver1]

Okay, I can see your point. He drives it, it keeps the car functioning. How much mileage can you put on an antique car before it’s “used up”? Has anyone put serious (say, over 50,000 miles) on an antique? He was told that an original engine can be “sleeved back to stock”. True? Does anyone have any experience with that? Can a block be re-sleeved if the engine needs a future rebuild, are the sleeves replaceable, or is the block truly used up after the rebuild?

[cahartley]

If he drives sensibly the engine should perform well for a very long time if he pays attention to having the oil changed at frequent intervals.

If he plans on freeway driving he'd be better off parking it.

One can do nearly anything and everything with any engine but V12 fixes will cost a bundle.

[edinmass]

This would be a very long answer to type, so I will send you a PM with my phone number. I have 18,000 miles on my 36 Pierce motor and it still looks and runs as new. We regularly drive our three V-12 Packards down the highway, all three are Pebble Beach level cars, and we put 2400 miles on a Model J Duesenberg this summer. Sure you can drive it. As to value, who cares......if you are using and enjoying the car it will show wear and deprecation just like any other car. If you do extensive matainance you can drive the car and show it. I have seen cars driven 10,000 miles  across the country and back; and still score 100 points and win a class at one of the big  shows, you just need to keep up with the details. Year,series,body style are all veriables that will come into play. Check your messages for my PM and phone number. Photo is of my 36 Pierce and the Model J that did 1300 miles the week the photo was taken last September. Two days later I drove the Pierce up the Mount Washington Auto Road. Ed

[Guest]

You should be able to drive a Packard almost forever.  My 1930 Pontiac that was bought new by my Grandfather has been my daily driver since 1959.  It now has over 500,000 miles on it and has been in every state west of the Mississippi.  My only modifications were to install aright hand taillight and an alternator as I do a lot of driving at night.  He should definitely drive it.  That's what they were made for.

[edinmass]

I'm going to try and post two links to my cars driving down the road.

 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

Model J fill up at station......

e

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Guest rb1949]

Drive the darn thing and have some fun showing it off. Then go buy yourself a classic.

[39BuickEight]

How many miles are on it now?  How many other cars like it are actually available?  If you have, say, a 20,000 mile car, there aren't many others.  Running it up to, say, 40,000, won't matter at all.  If you have a 10 mile car it might make a difference.  Personally, I can't imagine having a car I was worried about driving.  

[Rusty_OToole]

It's feasible within reason. He must use the car within its limitations, take proper care of it and maintain it properly. This last part is the hard part. Cars of that vintage need a lot more upkeep than modern cars. I am talking about things like greasing the chassis every 1000 miles, changing oil more frequently (and a Packard 12 takes gallons of oil, not quarts) tune ups etc. And if you want to keep it nice the paint, upholstery and chrome require regular attention. You can't just run it through the car wash and call it a day. Furthermore parts will be hard to come by and very expensive.

 

As for the engine being sleeved back to stock, that is seldom necessary. If anything happens and the engine needs to be rebuilt, there are shops that can take care of it. Expect the job to take a year or 2 and cost about $20,000 if everything goes well.

 

All in all the cost per mile shouldn't be any more than if he bought a new Rolls Royce,

Edited February 18, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Incidentally most guys start out with something simple and cheap like a Model A. They make their mistakes, learn their lessons and work their way up to a Packard 12 over the course of 20 or 30 years in the old car hobby. Starting out with a Packard 12 is something like getting into the ring with Tyson Fury for your first bout. I can't help a dark feeling in the back of my mind that he is going to find out why people no longer use Packard 12s as daily drivers, and the lesson will be an expensive one.

[Marty Roth]

edinmass,

 

Your first of the two videos looks like a stretch of Dixie Highway, crossing the Indian River, and heading toward US-1 in Florida. I drove that section about 6-7 weeks ago.

 

Love how quiet your car is !

 

When I bought my 1930 Packard 733-400 7-Passenger Dual Windshield Touring back around 2006, it had previously been in a huge private collection in Monaco for a good many years - likely relatively unused during that period. The odometer showed 91,xxx Km which is equivalent to around 56,500 miles, and presumed to be original. This Packard was delivered new in Paris and maintained in Monaco - presumably since new - the reason for the Metric Odometer. When running, there was more blue smoke at the tailpipe than I would have preferred, and driving several hundred miles did not improve the situation, so an engine tear-down ensued. There was virtually no wear so the cylinders were honed, but the Rod, Main, and Camshaft Bearings were "AS-NEW", and we were advised not to even think about replacing or re-doing them. New piston rings, aluminum pistons, and hardened valve seats completed the reassembly. She has been driven many thousands of miles since - primarily on AACA/VMCCA tours, and performs in a manner which gives credence to the Packard ad slogan "Ask the man who owns one". Smooth as silk, enough torque to start off in high gear if you cared to do so, and quiet as the "Omerta" society down at the Precinct Station. 

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

It's feasible within reason. He must use the car within its limitations, take proper care of it and maintain it properly. This last part is the hard part. Cars of that vintage need a lot more upkeep than modern cars....

 

Rusty made some excellent points.

Does the potential driver have some

experience with old cars, or is he a complete 

newcomer to the experience, looking with 

wide eyes and a "gee whiz" approach to the Packard?

 

Is he planning to drive it in a wintry climate

through all sorts of snow and slush and salt?

 

What body style does the Packard have?

 

Because it's an inherited car, it's sort of "found money,"

and he may not be carefully cherishing the Packard

as if he was the one who put thousands of man-hours

into the restoration.

Edited February 18, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

The fastest way to diminish any car's value is to drive it on salted roads.

 

He will need to tow an oil well behind him, too.

[Grimy]

Minimum of $30K for a complete Packard V-12 engine rebuild, per my close friend who has been there and done that--twice.

[vermontboy]

I remember reading a story years ago written by a man who used an early 30's Packard converted into a pickup truck and a 1928 Buick roadster as his only two vehicles. The years may be off a bit as my memory doesn't always work on the fine details.

 

He had no major problems with either of them and used a Buffalo robe for warmth in the roadster. Both vehicles regularly started at 40 below when many of the modern cars his neighbors drove required assistance. Neither car had ever been restored - just repaired and driven.

[C Carl]

TERMINOLOGY , there , C.C.D.1. DAILY driver ? DAILY ? DAILY man ? Ya mean daily like to work , the shopping center . or half the  kid's baseball team down to the 'diamond ? In a V12 Packard ? ANYWHERE ? In a word : ABSURD ! Naw , special occasions or interesting group or lone-wolf cruising ? NOT to do THIS ? In a word : ABSURD ! 

 

Uh , looka here. There is a huge difference in the connotational definition between the terms "daily driver" and "driver". Hey : you want  a really cool daily driver ? I just get in my '24 and '27 Cadillacs and go. A drive around the park ? Take 1/2 the kids baseball team out in the '24 7 pass touring ? Out to dinner ? Lunch ? Breakfast ? To the dentist ? Take the whole tavern softball team  back to base rock after the game by using the running boards of the '24 ? (Or even an almost equal amount of 1/2 crocked escapees from the hospitality room at the Grand National waving and whooping it up in carefree defiance !). The '27 is a closed 5 passenger sedan . I use it to go grocery shopping , or to the post office or literally ANYWHERE I feel like driving it , including thousands of miles of long distance driving on an annual basis. By definition it does not have the carrying capacity of the '24 , but it too has running boards. Far more comfortable long distance driver , the closed '27 has the highly effective factory heater. On the other hand , well designed  ventilation and vertical glass , makes this a marvelous 4 season Cadillac.  Now , which one do you want to swap for that finicky, fussy , too expensive to run Packard ? Yeah , they don't even MAKE 'em anymore !   - Carl

 

P.S.  : Most everyone here knows I can be a real smart a$$ on ocassion. Hope you enjoyed it !  But seriously , I think you get the point. Now ask us what lubricants to use for touring. That question comes up almost every month. You can see , other than myself , these are a great bunch. Welcome !  - CC

Edited February 18, 2017 by C Carl
Add welcome ! (see edit history)

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, Grimy said:

Minimum of $30K for a complete Packard V-12 engine rebuild, per my close friend who has been there and done that--twice.

 

That was about right 25 years go

[Rusty_OToole]

My concern was that OP would think he could use a classic Packard as he would a modern car, which he could, for a little while. But a few months of daily use, being left out doors in all weathers, and lack of maintenance could do irreparable harm.

 

On thinking it over I don't think this is a concern. Anyone who thought he could use one as a modern car, would learn different as soon as he drove one. I don't know where he lies on the spectrum from greenhorn to old hand. But if he has the savvy to come here and ask for advice he probably won't go far wrong.

[60FlatTop]

I am pretty sure the novelty of driving that car daily, unless they live in Mayberry, NC, will wear off fast. Even a Mayberry might find them self hopping into the modern car more often than they thought.

Teach by doing. Don't teach by denial. They will learn fast.

Bernie

[edinmass]

Driving a pre war car every day offers a host of issues. Parking is a problem because most modern lots don't provide enough room to maneuver a 147 inch wheelbase car with no power steering. I have been around old car so long pre war cars don't look old or special to me, something g pre WWI is old, 20's and 30's cars are just neat driving cars. I have a 75 point Pierce Arrow I use to run around town, haul groceries, get feed at the store, take out for lunch, etc. It's rather small and easy to handle. If a bird uses it for target practice, it will get cleaned up once a year........I usually wash it and do its heavy maintance just once every twelve months. Biggest issue is removing the archer EVERY time I take it somewhere. Other than that I just drive it like my every day Lincoln from 2004. Driving a pre war car often, nevermid as an every day driver is a pain in the ass. I just do it in the nice weather. Remember when you use to let a car warm up before you drove it.........well it takes a while to get use to doing it again. Maybe calling it a fair weather driver would be more reasonable. Driving a pre war car in heavy rain is a bummer, visibility, foggy windshield, poor traction in the rain, brakes that get wet and don't stop well, wipers that are almost useless............there is a reason cars today no longer resemble or perform like the 1930's. I recommend he just drive it as often as possible in fair weather. It WILL test his resolve after a few weeks. Ed

[cahartley]

Ed makes some excellent observations.

There are many places I'd like to go with my '59 Chevy and shopping is one of them.

I did stop at the store where we usually shop with the '59 ONCE because we happened to be in the neighborhood.

Luckily there was a spot with enough room to park it but parking lots are NOT laid out for cars which are 17 1/2' long and over 6 1/2' wide.

So to use that car as a daily driver will grow old real fast.

Pleasure cruising is another story.

You are bound to get lots of looks and thumbs up.......  

 

[Terry Bond]

Properly licensing and insuring it would be my first consideration.  If licensed for everyday use you maybe subject to safety and emissions inspections.  If licensed as an "antique" or 'collector vehicle" you may have some restrictions on usage.  Drive the heck out of it - but for hobby related events.  Put the right tags on it and get the right kind of insurance.

Terry

Edited February 19, 2017 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

I still feel that old cars are meant to be driven and daily usage is not out of the question.

 

How about a 1928 Graham Paige that has toured the world for 11 years to the tune of 145,000 miles. They didn't believe all those who said it couldn't be done.

 

http://www.today.com/news/are-we-there-yet-family-travels-world-11-years-wbna42381709

 

 Or the Hagerty employee who set out to drive his Model "A" as his daily driver for a year in Michigan, including through the winter. I can attest to the fact they are a great winter car as I drove mine from Rochester NY to Utica NY and back every weekend through the entire school year back in 1969.There is a longer article somewhere of all his trials and tribulations.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/18/365-days-of-a-one-mans-quest-to-drive-a-ford-model-a-for-entir/

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by vermontboy (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

I have been in a somewhat similar position, as I bought my grandfather's Packard 12 from his estate after he passed away.   A few thoughts: 

 

Quote

1. How is this idea feasible, given the fragility of the vehicle?

 

Driving the car regularly is very feasible, at least if it's mechanically fairly sound to begin with.  I put around 800 miles a year on my Packard.  Using the car as a "daily driver," as in your regular car, is a big headache for the reasons EdinMass points out above. 

 

Quote

2. How long can a properly restored Packard 12 run, anyway?

 

For hours! Seriously, there are two parts to the question.  First, how reliable are properly restored Packard 12s, and second, how do you know if your car is "properly restored"? A properly restored Packard 12 will be very reliable by the standards of a pre-war car. 

 

On the other hand, most Packard Twelve are not properly restored.  Restoring these cars is (by most standards) insanely expensive.  A "proper" restoration of that kind of car, doing everything and doing it all correctly, can run $300K or even $400K.  Most owners can't or won't pay for that, understandably.  As a result, reliability can be a mixed bag.  For example,  when I bought my car I needed to put about $30K into it just to make it a relatively reliable driver (it had been sitting for a long time).  I owned the car for 3 years and drove it about 2,000 miles before it needed an engine rebuild, which cost around $45K.  And although I think the car is pretty reliable now, regular issues are constantly coming up, from mechanical brakes that need adjustment to the spring in the starter motor breaking.  These are things that are no big deal for a more modern car, but they're a more significant headache to get repaired on that particular car. 

 

Quote

3. What is the expected diminution in value?

 

It's impossible to say without knowing the condition of the car now and how much it might be driven. 

[GK1918]

At my age no guarantee I wake up tomorrow..  Where I gotta go my 46 Ford V8 takes me there.  Oh yea I need paint

and interior but I have no rust no dings perfect stanless I use 20 50 racing  oil  20 bucks a month for gas v/s $300 a mo.

for F350 '460' so thats parked.  Now  I have a neighbor with Model A, 38 Plymouth ,41 Chev and more, the guys 10yrs

older than me and has a nuclear meltdown if a fly lands on them.   80+ Yrs old no kids  Hello Why?  all are really nice

then he has a mint 1960 Dodge Power wagon with plow= his driveway is 50 feet and he don't want snow flakes on it???

When this guy drops you all know whats going to happen.     bottom line when I'm gone it ain't my problem!!

[Frantz]

My concern would be at whether it's being driven daily as Packard designed it, or if they intend on "sensible upgrades". Sensible upgrades would absolutely ruin the car, and it's value. Sure it can be undone, but there is a high risk of damaging parts in the name of modern convenience. If their is an option of keeping it as a museum piece, I assume it's restored. It could well live out a normal life that a Packard would have when it was brand new. It's much more work than a modern car and you can't call Packard Roadside assistance when you have a problem.

I remember reading about a process to drive a Studebaker v8 1,000,000 miles without issue. It has a re-gasket every 100k and full machine rebuild every 250k.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Frantz (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Was the year and body style ever mentioned?  I must have missed it.  This is a very different discussion if we are talking about a 32 Twin Six Conv Coupe vs a 38 7 passenger sedan.

[60FlatTop]

10 hours ago, vermontboy said:

I drove mine from Rochester NY to Utica NY and back every weekend

I bet mentioning Morrisville triggers an immediate memory. I would guess you ran RT 5&20 and not they Thruway.

 

Back in '09 I would take a Buick Enclave to Syracuse on the Thruway and drive back on 5&20. A Twin Six Packard would have handled the hills better than that slug I was driving.

 

Getting away from the pragmatic side of the discussion, each of my old cars is special to me. As such driving them needs to be special in some way or they just become utilitarian. I grind out the routines of life in my truck and when my private time rolls around I just pick a special one.

 

Polygamy would probably work the same way for me.

Bernie

[edinmass]

I have had a nice conversation with the original poster, who's name and location wish to remain anonymous. Nice person, we covered  all aspects of the car in question, a late series Packard 12 closed car. I'm quite sure it will be used appropriately and be well cared for and maintained. Ed

Edited February 20, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

I bet mentioning Morrisville triggers an immediate memory. I would guess you ran RT 5&20 and not they Thruway.

 

Back in '09 I would take a Buick Enclave to Syracuse on the Thruway and drive back on 5&20. A Twin Six Packard would have handled the hills better than that slug I was driving.

 

Getting away from the pragmatic side of the discussion, each of my old cars is special to me. As such driving them needs to be special in some way or they just become utilitarian. I grind out the routines of life in my truck and when my private time rolls around I just pick a special one.

 

Polygamy would probably work the same way for me.

Bernie

 

I actually took Route 31 from Rochester to Vernon and then 5&20 into Utica. Rt 31 was very lightly travelled back then. Once I tried 5&20 through Syracuse and cut up to 31 at either Jordan-Elbridge or Weedsport. The roads were slushy and I spent a lot of time cleaning mud and salt off that nice flat windshield. Spent a bit of time with my head out the window to see where I could pull off as well ... I am now older and smarter, mostly.....

 

I am, however, intimately familiar with Morrisville Hill. I lived in Cazenovia (New Woodstock) for 24 years and drove it often (daily for 4 years when i was teaching in Utica). It can be difficult in a blizzard. 

 

 

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

I have had a nice conversation with the original poster, who's name and location wish to remain anonymous. Nice person, we covered  all aspects of the car in question, a late series Packard 12 closed car. I'm quite sure it will be used appropriately and be well cared for and maintained. Ed

 

This was why I asked about year and body.  A late series sedan you can drive in to the ground and it shouldn't impact the value very much, in fact it might help if it is proven to be reliable.   The problem will be if it needs an engine job which will be more than the value of the car.

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 2/18/2017 at 9:06 AM, 60FlatTop said:

I am pretty sure the novelty of driving that car daily, unless they live in Mayberry, N.C., will wear off fast....

 

Bernie indirectly makes an excellent point.

Where a person lives can influence the type of

antique car that he enjoys.  A small town is 

probably the best of both worlds:  little traffic,

plenty of 25-35 m.p.h. streets and roads, and

some smaller paved roads in the countryside for

extended drives.

 

I've often thought that the streets of my old home town

would be the perfect place for driving an antique

electric car.