1953 Roadmaster - severe engine knock

[Hans1965]

Sometimes you go from hell to heaven and backwards. Today is such a day for me. After getting my Roady started again a few days ago, today I let the engine warm up for maybe 7-8 min and then I played a little with the throttle. At higher revs I then heard a hard continous knock from - I think - the upper part of the engine. When I go back to idle it disappeared. The 2nd time - when I took the video - it did not disappear. Turned off immediately. 

 

Is anyone familiar with that kind of noise? Did I screw my engine finally? Lifter or rod knock? Something else? 

 

Any good news are welcome....

But tell me the bad truth if need be...

 

Thanks again for your advice!!! 

 

Would be difficult to find a new engine here in Germany. By the way the engine was redone in the US in 2009 (whatever this means in detail). I have no paperwork about this..

Thanks everybody,

 

Hans

 

 

20170125_194606.mp4

[Beemon]

How long has the car been sitting before you started it up again? If it's top of engine, it could be coming from the lifter galley and a hydraulic lifter may not be pumping up. When was the last oil change? What kind of oil do you use? You could possibly pull the filter and check for metal shavings, worst case scenario the oil pan.

 

Video just loaded for me, that doesn't sound like a lifter. A rod knock would be all the time, not at higher RPMs only. You should probably pull the valve covers and inspect your rocker arms and push rods.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Sounds external and at the same rate as the fan belt.

[JohnD1956]

Sounds like a lifter to my tinny ear.

[EmTee]

Sticky valve?

[avgwarhawk]

Sounds like a failing lifter to me.      I would pull the valve cover you hear the noise and run the motor at speed.  Hopefully the noise will be found in the lifter and or push rod to a lifter.      

 

EDIT:  Took a second listen.  It does sound like a lifter losing oil pressure.  

Edited January 26, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[leon bee]

I'd pull the valve covers and have a look. It's been years since I had my 53 apart, but I do remember broken parts. Seems like there are cast pieces which hold the long rod for lifters, and these can break. I remember visiting the salvage yard to find some more. Just a thought.

[buick man]

…. Hans, do yourself a present & future favor by taking the intake manifold off, valley cover off and valve covers off and remove all the spark plugs … O.K. Das is good … as my grandmother use to say, now you are ready to diagnose your problem and determine if any component (s) of the cam/lifter mechanism is at fault.   Put the timing so # 1 cylinder is at Top Dead Center ( TOD ), this will free up both the intake and the exhaust valve train from strain and pressure.  Now with your finger "quickly" press/push down and release ( do not hold ) with your finger on the portion of the rocker arm perch that is most in direct contact with the push rod.  (The push rod goes and rides between the top of the lifter down in the valley and extends upward to the the rocker arm perch located on top of the head.  This is where you will quickly press down then release.  What you are looking for is to see if the push rod will "retract" back upwards immediately upon your release of downward pressure by your finger.  This is the hydraulic lash of the lifter and it tells you the lifter is functioning internally and is not empty or internals stuck… Now observe your firing order and repeat this procedure on each and every cylinder in precise firing order and at Top Dead Center.  IF the problem is relating to anything in this upper valve driven mechanism, your problem will be found or not ...

 

I would recommend searching for one of my "How to Do" write-ups done about 5 years ago regarding the complete photographed procedure for the diagnosing, teardown and rebuild of your Buick nailhead hydraulic lifters and valve train or perhaps someone here can help direct you to that post … Go find it and good luck and keep us informed as to what transpires …  

[buick man]

 

[Hans1965]

Hi everybody, after thinking for months if I should apply buick man's test procedure myself or giving it to a shop I finally had the guts to try it myself. 

 

I tried to start the car a very last time somehow hoping the problem would be gone by just letting the car sit!!!! By pressing the starter button in my dash board the starter turned the engine for a second and  I heard the same ugly noise and I think the engine was stuck. No more cranking by the atarter possible!Tested battery and starter, both are fine. Dismantled the  valve covers, intake manifold, valley cover, the spark plugs, the fan and tried to turn the engine by hand ( in neutral). I have no idea how hard you need to turn but it did not move at all. 

Very frustrating!  Any advice? Over the winter I had redone windscreen and back window rubber as well as door rubber and vent window rubber and did some refining here and there but I just tried to ignire my engine problem! .

 

Now the car looks nice but seems to be a huge pile of scrap metall! 

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

Pull the head. 

[1953mack]

2 hours ago, Hans1965 said:

.....No more cranking by the starter possible! Tested battery and starter, both are fine. Dismantled the  valve covers, intake manifold, valley cover, the spark plugs, the fan and tried to turn the engine by hand ( in neutral). I have no idea how hard you need to turn but it did not move at all..... 

 

The noise you were hearing could have been intermittent piston slap due to the early nailhead engines with the piston pin clamp bolt-type rods. A loose clamp bolt might have contributed to your problem now showing up as a seized engine with a slightly twisted rod?

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint" 

[Hans1965]

Hi Al, thanks for the message. In fact I tried to turn around all push rods and just one was really way more dented than the others. A few were a little twisted but most of them not. A few of them were not turnable by hand. (I think the engine was redone in 2006 or 9. Not sure what redone means in my case but it got new pistons.  There is a small plate on the engine saying this).  -  What does that mean to my problem? Can I fix that myself or did I reach a point where the professionals need to take over? Thanks a lot! Best regards, Hans 

 

[old-tank]

Take the rocker assemblies off and see if the engine will turn.  It may have been locked due to stuck valves.  Report back.

[avgwarhawk]

8 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Take the rocker assemblies off and see if the engine will turn.  It may have been locked due to stuck valves.  Report back.

 

 

Concur with Willie.  Remove the rocker arms.   See if she turns by hand.   Also, you can pull the push rods one by one after the rocker assembly is off.  Check for any bent rods. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Hans1965]

Thanks both of you! Will do that tomorrow and try again turning the engine.

Do all the push rods need to be straight as an arrow or is it pretty normal that they are a little (!) dented? I never opened an engine before, but I want to learn and this is really exciting! Unfortunately not easy only by YouTube videos..... Happy that you are so helpful here!!!!! Thanks a lot. Really appreciate your advice.

Will report back tomorrow. 

[avgwarhawk]

5 minutes ago, Hans1965 said:

Thanks both of you! Will do that tomorrow and try again turning the engine.

Do all the push rods need to be straight as an arrow or is it pretty normal that they are a little (!) dented? I never opened an engine before, but I want to learn and this is really exciting! Unfortunately not easy only by YouTube videos..... Happy that you are so helpful here!!!!! Thanks a lot. Really appreciate your advice.

Will report back tomorrow. 

 

Push rods should be straight as straight can be.  If one is bent then there is a problem on that cylinder.    Do not be afraid to take the engine apart.    Take pictures as you take it apart for reference later.  Bag and tag the nuts and bolts to the parts you are removing.  

 

The rockers are bolted onto the head. Loosen the bolts and remove the entire rocker arm assembly on the shaft.  If you have a shop manual that is helpful for not only instructions but the torque requirements when reassembly takes place.          

[Hans1965]

I am afraid as hell to go further and take the engine apart. But I will try, although this will give me sleepless nights. Cannot be worse than now. I have the 53 (and 52) workshop manual and check for torque requirements. And I am going to buy new push rods then from Cars.

Fortunately weather is so bad here I wouldn't be able to drive my Buick anyway..... Still simply love it.....

[Buicknutty]

 The important point, is why are the pushrods bent? Since you do not know much more of the history of the engine, other than what you've stated, you don't know if the pushrods have been bent all along, or if its' a more recent development. My guess would be the latter, since the reason you're doing this is due to noise. check to see if the rockers all move freely.

 Also, when you've tried turning the engine by hand, how are you doing this? A large socket on the front pulley is a good way to do it, puling and pushing on the fan is difficult and you risk damage to it. Did you try turning it over with the rocker shafts off?

 Engine work isn't "rocket science" to use the well worn expression, but it does require careful procedure and attention to detail. So If you are careful, you should be able to do this work yourself.

 Keith

Edited May 1, 2017 by Buicknutty (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

3 hours ago, Hans1965 said:

I am afraid as hell to go further and take the engine apart. But I will try,

 

Take it in small steps.  Start by immediately removing the fuel supply line. This is the one that goes from the pipe on the frame to the fuel pump.  your engine looks very clean inside so you do not need to pump gasoline into it.

 

After that fuel line, remove the other lines you have there.  The fuel line from the fuel pump to the back of the carb, and the vacuum line from the base of the carb to the distributor. Put these on the side where they will not get bent. 

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

The repair manual is quite good with instructions and associated pictures. When you pull a push rod please measure. I found my 54 has a cam/lifters/push rod for a 56. Much shorter push rods compared to 54. Since yours has a rebuild history it my be possible parts are interchanged on the top end. Hopefully you do not have an issue of the rebuilder installing hardened seats in the heads similar to what occurred with mine.

 

 

[Hans1965]

I have tried to turn the engine while the rocker arms are still on. I have used a fairly long lever but I have an even longer torque wrench that I am going to try with as well. Thought removing the plugs would be sufficient to turn it. No idea how much power is necessary. But from what I read it may be much more than I expected. I try after I have left office...  I keep you posted.

One remark: before Christmas I was in Simpsonville, SC, and test drove a red and white 53 Buick Super that is still available for 13.900 USD on ebay and was so much impressed by the smoothness and power of the engine. My engine never run as smooth and silent as this one. Maybe there is really something wrong with the rebuilt of the past. But this is wild speculation. Don't want to blame anyone. 

 

Thanks for helping me here! I am very grateful for that. 

[avgwarhawk]

1 minute ago, Hans1965 said:

I have tried to turn the engine while the rocker arms are still on. I have used a fairly long lever but I have an even longer torque wrench that I am going to try with as well. Thought removing the plugs would be sufficient to turn it. No idea how much power is necessary. But from what I read it may be much more than I expected. I try after I have left office...  I keep you posted.

One remark: before Christmas I was in Simpsonville, SC, and test drove a red and white 53 Buick Super that is still available for 13.900 USD on ebay and was so much impressed by the smoothness and power of the engine. My engine never run as smooth and silent as this one. Maybe there is really something wrong with the rebuilt of the past. But this is wild speculation. Don't want to blame anyone. 

 

Thanks for helping me here! I am very grateful for that. 

 

 

 

Assure all the spark plugs are removed.  Turning an engine with plugs in and rocker arms in their proper place makes it very hard to turn an engine by hand.  If the plugs are out, rocker arms off and transmission not in gear...turning the engine by hand with a large socket/ratchet should be very easy.  

 

It is highly suspect your engine(at least for me) may not have been rebuilt correctly.  My 264 in my 54 had a few parts installed incorrectly by the builder.   The cylinder heads had hardened seats installed.  These failed destroying the cylinder heads.  The rocker arm shafts were installed upside down.  The manual transmission mount had no securing bolts to the cross member.  

 

Pull the rocker assemblies and spark plugs.  See if she turns.  Pull each push rod individually and inspect.  Replace back where the rod came from.  

[Beemon]

21 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Turning an engine with plugs in and rocker arms in their proper place makes it very hard to turn an engine by hand.

I disagree, I can turn my engine with a normal 10" long socket wrench. If you can't turn it with a 10" socket wrench, something is obviously wrong.

[Hans1965]

10 minutes ago, Beemon said:

I disagree, I can turn my engine with a normal 10" long socket wrench. If you can't turn it with a 10" socket wrench, something is obviously wrong.

Hi Beemon,

you mean without spark plugs, but with rocker arms still installed? 

I have the plugs out but no chance to turn the engine. 

[Beemon]

Idk maybe there's something wrong with my engine, but I can turn it with everything in.

[Hans1965]

36 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

.  

 

It is highly suspect your engine(at least for me) may not have been rebuilt correctly.  My 264 in my 54 had a few parts installed incorrectly by the builder.   The cylinder heads had hardened seats installed.  These failed destroying the cylinder heads.  The rocker arm shafts were installed upside down.  The manual transmission mount had no securing bolts to the cross member.  

Amazing what can go wrong!!!! Or to be more precise, what people can do wrong.

[avgwarhawk]

39 minutes ago, Beemon said:

I disagree, I can turn my engine with a normal 10" long socket wrench. If you can't turn it with a 10" socket wrench, something is obviously wrong.

 

 

I did not say it could not be turned.  It is harder to turn with plugs in and rockers installed.  Sure, I can turn my engine with all installed with putting some back into it.  Removal of plugs and rockers it is much easier to turn. 

[JohnD1956]

Hans, are you trying to turn the engine in both directions, or only one? 

 

I am wondering if there may be a loose bolt on the flywheel where by it has come loose enough to wedge against the back of the motor, preventing the engine assembly from rotating?  I would recommend that you disconnect the battery ( if not already done) and remove the starter.  Then try to rotate the engine by hand just a little bit in both directions.  In this case, if you can slip a piece of wood under the starter motor, then just unbolt it and slip it forward.  You do not have to take the wires off it although it is much safer to disconnect it and remove it completely from the car. 

 

NOTE, that starter is very heavy!  don't let it drop on you.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[Hans1965]

So finally tried to turn it again with my big torque wrench. The plan was to turn it at first with the rocker arms on and then without, if the first attempt fails. But it worked. Not easy turning but it worked out. No noise, no harder point to overcome. Nothing. So I take that as a good sign. 

 

But I am now even more puzzled then before. I have to replace at least 4 push rods that's for sure. 

 

But I still have no explanation for the terrible noise (see former video) and no idea why the starter just engaged once for a second and then did not crank the engine anymore. I thought a starter is black or white, works or fails, but maybe it is too 'weak' to turn the engine? Battery is new. My starter knob is directly connected to the starter. No relay or so in between. 

Any advice? Thanks already for all your help. You are a fantastic bunch of people here. 

 

[Hans1965]

14 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Hans, are you trying to turn the engine in both directions, or only one? 

 

I am wondering if there may be a loose bolt on the flywheel where by it has come loose enough to wedge against the back of the motor, preventing the engine assembly from rotating?  I would recommend that you disconnect the battery ( if not already done) and remove the starter.  Then try to rotate the engine by hand just a little bit in both directions.  In this case, if you can slip a piece of wood under the starter motor, then just unbolt it and slip it forward.  You do not have to take the wires off it although it is much safer to disconnect it and remove it completely from the car. 

 

NOTE, that starter is very heavy!  don't let it drop on you.

Hi John, I had it off the car during the weekend and tested it with a spare battery and then with the one in the car. It really worked well and I put it in again. The flywheel idea is something i check. Btw - I can confirm the starter is heavy! :-) Just rotated in one direction - when you stand in front of the car and look backwards on the engine clockwise. Thank you!

[avgwarhawk]

The bent push rods are a concern.   Are the rods that are bent on one head or mixed between both heads?   Can you post a picture of  the rods?  

[avgwarhawk]

Going back to your original post were you linked the video of the engine making the ugly noise, it appears the rods were bent at this point.   Did the engine sit for a very long time and you just got it started for the season of driving?   The bent rods indicate stuck valves.   Happens on these heads sometimes.          

[Hans1965]

I will make a short video of the most bent rod while turning it by hand. The car is sitting in my garage since quite a while and I let it run occasionally every few weeks for 5 to 10 min. 

I still cannot figure out the cause of the noise and the location where it is generated. I think it is more likely not from the underside like John's idea with the flywhile and a loose screw. I had more the impression it comes from the upper part like the valve covers. Do you think this clapping noise is from the rods being bend?

 

To be honest I do not really know what the consequence of stuck valves are. Do the heads need to be worked up? 

 

Still no clue why the starter is not cranking the car. I go and take the video. 

[avgwarhawk]

11 minutes ago, Hans1965 said:

I will make a short video of the most bent rod while turning it by hand. The car is sitting in my garage since quite a while and I let it run occasionally every few weeks for 5 to 10 min. 

I still cannot figure out the cause of the noise and the location where it is generated. I think it is more likely not from the underside like John's idea with the flywhile and a loose screw. I had more the impression it comes from the upper part like the valve covers. Do you think this clapping noise is from the rods being bend?

 

To be honest I do not really know what the consequence of stuck valves are. Do the heads need to be worked up? 

 

Still no clue why the starter is not cranking the car. I go and take the video. 

 

 

Yes sir, I have no doubt the bent rods are the cause of your noise.  If I had a guess, one rod started to make noise as you stated.  In your video it appears another rod went bad or gotten worse indicated by the loud rapping that would not stop.  You shut down the engine at that point.  

 

Consequences of stuck valves are bent rods.  Now, we hope that no valves were open and struck by a piston.  

 

Let us know what piston(s) are affected and if both rods(intake/exhaust)  for that piston are involved in getting bent.  

 

At this point, I hand the reigns to other that have directly dealt with bent rods and what they did to remedy  the issue.     I have not had to deal with a bent rod and hope not too! 

Edited May 2, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Hans1965]

1st video is right hand, 2nd left side: worst is right side 3rd one 

20170502_221425.mp4

[Hans1965]

Left side

20170502_221549.mp4

[avgwarhawk]

Yes sir, you have some bent push rods.  If I were to guess and I can only guess as I have not experienced this issue, the rods began to bend at one point.  Engine sat awhile and not run.  First start with slightly stuck valves and rods bent to some degree, etc.   Not enough to cause running issues but enough to allow one or two rods to continue to bend until you heard the rapping noise.

 

Please allow Willie and others who have seen this chime in with suggestions.     

[Hans1965]

Guess it is hard to see. I made a table about how it looked and felt:

[old-tank]

They are bent.  Since they need to be replaced, remove the rocker assemblies/pushrods and remove a valve lifter for detailed pictures.  Four possibilities on a newly rebuilt engine: valve to guide clearance too tight (machine shop may have set it up like a chevy which has smaller diameter valves and tighter clearance); 1956 lifter were used (which require a shorter pushrod) with the original 53-55 pushrods (which are too long for this combination resulting valve spring bind which leads to bent pushrods); (Another possibility which would require removal of the cylinder heads)  shims may have been installed under the outer valve spring that covered the recess for the inner valve spring also causing valve spring bind and bent push rods; valve stem height above the cylinder head may be excessive.

I have over the years seen all 4 problems, some happened to my new engines, some even caused total destruction.