Wooly15 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Someone along the line added spacers to my 56's front springs and I have always been told these negatively affect handling and ride quality. On the other hand, I'm afraid to remove them and have the car sag too much. Any thoughts or experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The shop manual says three spacers are ok. Anything more can adversely affect quality. I've been told that new springs raise the car up like a lifted 4x4 and there's about a month lead time for them. The fronts also require a spring compressor whereas the rears can be removed by dropping the rear axle. You can check your ride height by comparing specific points on the frame in regards to each axle, it's documented in the shop manual. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 There are "spacers" and then there are SPACERS. The spacers the factory might "authorize" are flat spacers of a particular thickness to act as a shim of sorts between the spring and the suspension part (usually on the bottom) Some were used with particular equipment pairings to maintain "ride height" with the same coil spring. There are also some variations which are of a particular thickness and U-shaped rather than just flat. Either way, same "shim" effect. The SPACERS are the metal, screw-in "wedges" which go between the coil spring coils to compensate for sagged and/or aged coil springs. Those are not so good as they put more stress on the section of spring they are in, sometimes deforming the oil in the process. These were the quick-fix sort of things as no suspension disassembly is required. If you change one axle-set of springs, at that age of vehicle, probably best to get a full set of OEM-spec springs. NTX5467 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooly15 Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Mine are the big screw in type and there are two per spring. I'm tempted to pull them to see if my handling improves. I know there's probably more to that issue than just spacers, but I'm starting with the cheap/easy things first. (Bit of a wanderer, she is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 IF removed, those screw-in SPACERS might not go back in. The only way handling might change is as the front ride height decreases, the outside wheel (in a turn) will probably have more negative camber, which better braces it against the turn as the car leans, but the inside wheel will probably only have the inner tread ribs "working". PLUS, if the rear does not drop the same amount as the front does, the front wheels will also be in negative caster. That might mean easier steering but some negatives as to directional stability. My general orientations on front end alignment: maximize caster when possible and within total specs -- camber at "0" . . . toe-in as close to "0" in the specs, or at the minimum spec, especially with segmented-tread radials. The max caster should cause the outside wheel to be better braced into the turn, with the inside wheel being more perpendicular to the road surface as the car leans. Should increase directional stability on the highway, too. Camber at "0" (or very close) is more important with non-radials, but also important with radials and their more flexible sidewalls. When the "all season" radials appeared, GM started using the "0" toe-in settings, otherwise, the tread segments would wear unevenly and need rotation every 6000 miles or so. In any event, aim for the "min spec" for your vehicle. The toe-in setting is compensation for deflection of the steering linkage as the car rolls forward and pre-loads the linkage by the front wheels trying to move rearward. So with all new or very good condition steering/suspension components, "0" might work well, but with more wear, possibly the min-spec setting might work best. Enjoy! NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 This is the section of the shop manual that covers ride height. If your ride height is out of those specs when you remove the spacers, then a new set of coils should be in your imminent future. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm not sure if front spring spacers are available commercially but they are very easy to fabricate with a plasma torch and 1/8" steel plate................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Those screw in spaces are wedges between the coils to raise a car with shot springs, used car lot stuff. After 60 years it would be reasonable to expect spring to collapse to some lower point. I have seen quite a few disappointing spring replacements, even my own. Around 1988 I bought a new set of rear springs from J. C. Whitney for $50 (I always remember the price when I am unhappy). The rear of the car towered in the air and the car seemed to bounce. Cheap springs. In 1994 I replaced them with springs from a company thing was called Specialty suspension or something like that the rear pair were in the $250 range. I forgot the exact price because they are perfect. On the front I went with a pair of MOOG springs from NAPA at about $100 for the pair. I think the engine weight made it easier to provide an accurate spring rate. The rear of a '64 Riviera has little sprung weight. I have had smaller cars that sat too high with new springs, light ones like SBC;s where someone went for "wagon" springs. From my experience, on a car with high sprung weight a quality spring like MOOG will sit correctly. Working with a light car or even on the rear, I would go with a specialty manufacturer who makes springs to your specification. If the spring company I used 20 years ago is still in business I would recommend them. I think they were in New Jersey. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 22 hours ago, Wooly15 said: Someone along the line added spacers to my 56's front springs and I have always been told these negatively affect handling and ride quality. On the other hand, I'm afraid to remove them and have the car sag too much. Any thoughts or experiences? The spacers are a quick fix to the inevitable. Replacing the coils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 15 hours ago, Wooly15 said: (Bit of a wanderer, she is) You might need new springs, but they will have little effect (good or bad) on your wanderer. Things like old car technology, bad tires, worn suspension and steering components and front end alignment issues are more likely to cause wander. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooly15 Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, old-tank said: You might need new springs, but they will have little effect (good or bad) on your wanderer. Things like old car technology, bad tires, worn suspension and steering components and front end alignment issues are more likely to cause wander. I'm slowly replacing the front end. So far new tires, sway bar bushings and an alignment( which I don't trust was done right.) he couldn't find the specs and winged it I think. When funds allow, ill do everything else Edited January 20, 2017 by Wooly15 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Wooly, do yourself a favor. Do what Beemon suggested. Using the part of the shop manual he referenced. When I did my '50, I checked the level that way, . On a car that was as old then as yours is now, the level was right in the center of the specs, with 97,000 miles showing. Your springs may or may not need replacing, but it is good to know for sure. Ben 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Even if the miles might be "low" for the age of the car, those springs have been resisting gravity for as long as they've been on the vehicle. "Interstate" miles can be easier than "backroads" miles, but gravity remains an issue. After you've gotten used to seeing it with old springs on it, any new ones will make it look like somebody put two floor jacks under it. Moog can be a good choice, if they have something for your application. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 You might explore getting custom springs made. Coil Spring Specialties will use your old springs as a template for making new springs to your spec. Example: Send in one of your old front springs with instructions to stiffen the spring rate and raise the height by 1½". A couple of weeks later, two new springs show up on your doorstep. They say they can get the height within ¼" of the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 On 1/20/2017 at 8:27 AM, 60FlatTop said: Around 1988 I bought a new set of rear springs from J. C. Whitney for $50 (I always remember the price when I am unhappy). The rear of the car towered in the air and the car seemed to bounce. Cheap springs. I installed some J.C. Whitney springs ca. 1979 with the opposite effect. The front end was sagging, so I figured new springs were in order. After the replacement, it was lower than it was before. They used to have a great catalog back in the day; you could buy anything for any car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 5 hours ago, KongaMan said: They used to have a great catalog back in the day; you could buy anything for any car. x2 -- it was like the automotive equivalent of 'Google' before the internet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Some of us "in the know" used to get our hands on the Warshawskiy catalog. It was the same print as Whitney's with wholesales prices. Hundreds of pages of dreaming and underling in those. I still have a couple around. Coil Spring Specialties sure sounds like the company I was very happy with. They had the original specification. It just doesn't seem like they came from Kansas. The speci s out there but you need a competent bender to do the job. I would be really careful about asking for anything that required a judgement call. Point to the spec and say "Do that." Anything else and you are at the risk of hearing the two most dangerous words in the English language "I thought". http://www.coilsprings.com/classic.aspx I wasn't born cynical. I was trained. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 There are LOTS of things about coil springs that can make two similar-looking springs act very different on the vehicle! In the back of the Moog Spring Catalog, it has the specs for the springs they sell. Unlike GM with "Computer Selected" springs, Moog might have one for V-8 w/o ac and one w/ac. The "W/ac" spring could also be the same one as "HD", sometimes. Some springs are longer, with more coils, and thinner "wire" as others for the same vehicle can be shorter with thicker "wire". There's a complex mix of items which results in the final "spec" for the spring on the particular vehicle. Detroit Eaton Spring was the first company to jump off into, that I saw, the restoration aspect of vehicle springs. As an OEM supplier, they claimed to have all of the specs, which they should have. In those earlier years, I saw some cars with their new springs under them that looked to be, compared to what we considered "right", about an inch or so too far off the ground (with the new springs). But I later determined that I'd just gotten used to looking at the cars with sagged springs as the rocker panel lines were where they should have been (in relation to the center of the wheel). Building a coil spring is probably similar to doing a leaf spring leaf. Heat the base stock to "glowing red" in the kiln, then remove and form over a fixture, then shock it in cooler water, and whatever else is needed. Wire diameter and type of spring ends are variable. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I installed a set of Detroit Eatons on my 54. Ride height is in keeping with factor photos I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 My friend ordered & installed new Detroit Eaton springs in front of his 1950 Cadd. Came with top coil "progressively" wound( tighter wound at the top for higher spring rate), keeps the overall spring rate the same as factory to prevent "bottoming". Specified 1.5" below factory ride height. Installed ride height looked too high. Drove one month, settled into perfection! Traded 1950 for 1953 Cadd. Repeated procedure, same great results! I like the quality result of that kind of engineering expertise! Going over a whoop-dee-doo can possibly cause your front springs to stretch to the point of ejecting those spiral insert spacers causing an unexpected handling change when that side drops back down and compresses again. No gaurentee they will stay in after they are installed! I'm sure my Dad would have been way more comfortable if I had espoused these kind of ideas when I was 16 and practically penniless, (safe brakes and handling were way overrated back then). But getting that inexpensive aftermarket floor shifter to catch second gear asap on my 56 Chevy was a top priority! 2.5 centavos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1953mack Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) Addressing just the front coil springs that the OP talks about on his 1956 Buick...to get the original ride-height back, you need to find a spring shop that is knowledgeable about variable weights from Model to Model once the vehicle owner informs them of what's under the hood and further back...driver's weight, engine size/weight (6 or 8 spark plugs), type of transmission (stick or automatic), power steering or no power steering, air conditioning compressor or no air conditioning compressor, LHD or RHD, etc. You can't pick a one-size-fits-none generic 1956 Buick coil spring. Even if you ordered out two new front coil springs for a car with air conditioning or power steering, expect to add additional 1/8" or 1/4" shims (not spacers) between the top of the coil spring and the top spring pocket on the side that has the heavy accessory/option...unless you order one for the passenger side and a different one for the driver's side. Buick addressed this topic in their Shop Bulletins in 1953 and most likely other years. If you ever owned a Model A Ford with transverse front and rear leaf springs and it had a major list toward the driver's side, you know what I'm talking about. Nobody probably told you that the original owner/driver might have tipped the scales higher than the 250# mark. Al Malachowski BCA #8965 "500 Miles West of Flint" Edited January 28, 2017 by 1953mack (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 If you start working on the rear springs you can get into trouble if you just unbolt the shock and pull the axle down to slide the spring in. I always loosen all the suspension pivot point bolts where they go through rubber bushings and remove the tension. I have a large chisel that I work between the inner edge of the arm and the chassis mount. I tap it until the arm spreads enough to loosen the serrated edge of the sleeve or retainer. That way the arm can swing much farther without tearing the old rubber bushing. On a coil spring rear suspension you need to free both ends of the lower control arm, the upper control arm, and the track bar. If you don't (or they don't) you could here a pretty good rap from a torn bushing when you go over a bump. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 One OTHER thing on all suspension work is to NOT do the final bolt torque with vehicle's tires not supporting the vehicle's weight. If you tighten the fasteners with the suspension at "full extension", when the car gets back on the ground, the applicable rubber bushings will be under preload as the rubber bushings progressively deflected as te car settled down. Such preload can generally result in shorter effective bushing life. So, do the basic tightening/attaching with the car "in the air", but not so tight the bushings will not move as the car's weight settles on the chassis. Once the car is one the ground, then after a slight torque decrease to allow the rubber bushing to become more where it should be in its realm of things, do the final torque for the bolts. This ensures the bushing range of motion is more centered so the bushing can deflect normally in BOTH directions as needed. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Once the bushings have been loosened for any reason, I don't tighten the bolts at all until the suspension is settled and under load. I put in the bolts (to keep the pieces in place), then run the nuts up (just so I don't lose them). If I'm using jack stands or a frame lift (i.e. with the axle unsupported), I always drop it to the ground and bounce it around a few times (to let the bushings find their center point), then snug the bushings while on the ground so they don't rotate out of position when raising the car with the axle hanging. If you're going to jack it back up to do the final tightening, measure the distance from the center of the axle to top of the wheel well before raising the car so you know where to put the axle (remember, this distance is likely different now than before you started replacing stuff, so don't use a pre-work measurement). If you're super paranoid about the bushings slipping, you can always jack up the axle along with the car to keep that relationship intact -- or jack it up by the pumpkin and ease it down just enough so the stands/supports take the weight of the frame. That will be close enough to having a fully weighted axle so that things aren't twisted when you tighten them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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