Gary W

1937 Buick Model 48: RESTORATION HAS BEGUN! (Photo)

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Wednesday October 31, 2018:  Measuring for the Robe Rail:

 

I want to show you what photos I have from the disassembly, and the trouble locating the outer mounting holes:

 

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This photo shows the outer passenger side attachment, but without perspective, It's hard to see where it actually goes.

 

 

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Again, this photo I thought would be the best help.  But the photo looks "flat", the seat back curves and you lose all perspective.

There is the metal back, then a heavy padding, then the fabric, so I cannot feel the holes through all that material.

 

 

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Then I thought this one would help if I just measure the wood blocks and make some lines, using my mountings as a fixed reference...

 

 

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Same photo:  Believe it or not, those two red lines are parallel!  So it's very difficult working off a photo.

 

 

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I measured my mounts and use them as a template.

 

 

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I'm pretty sure I found the inner mounting holes using push pins.

 

 

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But these outer ones are the issue.  I really don't think they "wrap around" the curve...  The mount is perfectly flat and won't work there.

 

Thanks for all your help!

Gary

 

 

 

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 My lap robes were removed when they put the seat covers on years ago. So I stopped looking when I found the first two holes, I now see they are attached by 4 screws. If you center the one hole over the pin is the other one over the other pin?

 I'll go out and see if I can find another hole about 2 11/16ths from the one I found. Be back later.

 

Carl

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 Gary I don't think I can help you. I found a second outer hole 2 11/16ths farther outward and upward the same as you have. Like your seat the upper and outer hole is past the beginning of the curve. A flat edge makes it appear there should be a curve of about 3/4 inch on the bracket. Hopefully someone with split seats that has the lap robes installed can chime in.

 

Sorry, Carl

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Here are the driver side measurements, i tried to include some reference point on whatever ruler i was usin, but let me know if you need anything else

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Thank you for taking all that time to measure, photograph and send these in.  I truly appreciate the help!

 

I'll get out there soon (as soon as the Trick-or-Treaters are finished ringing the doorbell!)

 

You guys are great!

Gary

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Posting these from my phone at my shop earlier, i left out several pertinent ones to the smaller mounting holes

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Sunday November 4, 2018:  Marvel vs. Carter

I'm finally making the switch!

 

Today marks two years of ownership.  Boy has it been a steeeeep learning curve, I can tell you!

 

So, my day started out with a 15 minute drive to enjoy the early fall air before the hurly-burly of the day begins.  I got a couple of photos of the car in the fall colors.

This is a fantastic time of year.

 

You may recall that the car has "starting" issues in that it seems like the carburetor is running dry and the accelerator pedal needs "pumping" to get her to fire over.

She fires off, always leaving a black soot mark under the exhaust pipe, and then she settles out and off we go.

 

When the odometer read 20 miles, basically my first run out with her, I checked the oil and it was black!  This was the expensive "break in oil" and it looked terrible.

So I changed it.  I wrote off the "blackness" to the moly-lube we used to smear on all the bearing surfaces during the build, and assumed it was mixing into the oil.  Made sense to me.

 

When I came home this morning, (the odometer has only 50 miles on it) I checked my oil again.  It's getting very very dark for oil that now has only 30 miles on it.  And the oil level on the dip stick is actually a hair above the "full" line, when it was exactly on it before.

John came over, and quickly realized that I'm getting gasoline in my oil, and it's coming from the Marvel.  It must be leaking out into the intake manifold and diluting my motor oil.

So today I removed the Marvel and started making the necessary parts and stuff to convert over to the Carter that I bought last year from Jon the Carburetor King.

 

I wish I did it last year.  I just hope I didn't do any damage to the engine in the meantime.

 

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Day started nice enough, the cool morning and the time change made for a nice morning drive.

 

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When I got home, I checked the oil.  It only has 30 miles on it, and it is getting very very dark already.  

Then I smelled gas, and when I checked the Marvel, the base was soaked in gasoline.

It all started making sense why the carburetor always seems to run out of gas, even when sitting for a short time.

 

 

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I purchased this Carter 608S last year from Jon.  

 

 

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This is an NOS carburetor that Jon went through and replaced the gaskets......

This has an integral automatic choke, not a divorced choke like the marvel set up has.

It also has the vacuum start switch right on the unit as well.

 

 

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I already bought the new 1/4" rod to bend a new throttle linkage, and a stainless tube to bend a new gas line.

 

 

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When I removed the Marvel, you can see all the wet inside the manifold down there.

 

 

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So, this week I'll be bending a new throttle linkage, removing the vacuum start switch from the manifold being the Carter has that switch right on it.

I think I'll move the wiper vacuum back to where the start switch is, and put a plug where the wiper line exits.  It'll look cleaner.

The vacuum advance tube fit right in with minimal bending into the new carburetor.

I'm going to bend an all new fuel line from the fuel pump right up to the back of the Carter.

All that seems easy enough to do. I'm planning on bending thin brass rod as a template before bending the final rods.

 

***  But the question....  How do I make the "stove pipe"(?), Hot air pipe (?), Hot air feed(?).....to work the automatic choke?

It looks like a vacuum setup, but where does it pull the hot air in from?

(I was thinking of removing my automatic choke unit, fabricating a blanking plate there, and tapping it to feed the Carter automatic choke......  will that work?)

 

Any photos of what you have, or how you hook that up, please send them along.

Thanks!

 

Gary

 

 

(Time for another oil change!!!)

 

Here's the link from the original carburetor conversation last year:

 

Edited by Gary W (see edit history)
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Nothing against the Marvel, but my two 27's idle, run and perform flawlessly fuel wise with the Carter BB-1 updraft carburetor. 

 

I think this is a good move Gary, reliability and not causing problems with a new engine are sometimes more important than fighting with an original design and its inherent problems. 

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Gary:

 

You will absolutely love the WCD! Even though it's a post war carb, they are so much better than the WD0, and anything beats the Marvel. I have a slightly later one on my 1940 248 and it is fantastic! Starts right up every time, loads of power.

 

Choke stove: on the later cars there is just a tube that goes thru the exhaust manifold and opens out the bottom. The carb draws in hot air through that.

 

On my 1938, I switched to a later postwar Stromberg, so I made a choke stove out of a tight coil of tubing and I placed that in a small pipe on top of the exhaust manifold. A little slower to heat than the thru the manifold tube but it does work. I will try to post a pic tmw.

 

Cheers, Dave

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On one 37 320 I saw, someone converted the well for the Delco choke into a stove for the Carter. It consisted of a tube simply dropped down in the well through a non-sealing cover, intended to let just a little fresh air in. I don't know how well that worked, but it seemed reasonable. It looked like it belonged there.

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That's what I was thinking of doing.  I wonder if anyone has tried or done it this way?

 Remove the divorced automatic Delco choke unit, fabricate a blanking plate and tap a hole to attach the Carter choke.

So... that choke unit pulls in hot exhaust fumes to make it work?

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No, it needs a heater to heat clean air for it. Exhaust will screw it up.

 

The 320 I saw with the Delco unit removed had a "well" underneath, separate from the exhaust, but hanging down in it to get hot. Have you ever seen the well for a well choke on a 60s Chrysler product? It looked like that.

 

They had closed off the top (almost) to make a little oven out of that space, and the tube to the carb just sucked out of there. IIRC the fitting at the carb end supported the tube. Was it enough hot air? I'm not sure. It was completely non-invasive, and at first glance it looked factory. It is the first thing I would try.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Gary:

 Sorry about your BD-1 1937 Marvel carb issues . So far mine still works fine. At over $650 to rebuild it I need to get as many miles as possible out of it. It will be good to see what the change will be in your car with the Carter. Mine sill has a bit of vapor lock coming over the Catoctin mountain near Fredrick MD.2 weeks ago from the Rockville show. But we had put over 120 miles by that time and had to do an ethanol fill up. 

 I had changed the oil last year after the 2500 mile trip to Wisconsin since we had a dead #8 cylinder for over 200 miles. Small piece of the piston top hammered the plug gap shut.

DSCF7079.thumb.JPG.3d43cdd7d4a47b8bc8230cc0c8158c87.JPGI replaced the plug and there has been no further issue. Even though the oil had some dilution it was not black. I changed that oil last week and it still looked good after about 600 miles driven this year.

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Hi Larry!

That photo you posted.....  what is it that we are looking at?

I can't make it out

Thanks for alll your support throughout this build!...  I really appreciate all your help!

Gary

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3 hours ago, Gary W said:

***  But the question....  How do I make the "stove pipe"(?), Hot air pipe (?), Hot air feed(?).....to work the automatic choke?

It looks like a vacuum setup, but where does it pull the hot air in from?

Hi Gary,

 Don't know how much help I can be, but years ago they used to make kits to adapt newer carburetors to work on our Buicks. The kit had a metal box of sorts, heat tube, and an adapter for an air horn. The box bolted to the exhaust manifold capturing clean hot air and the tube conveyed it to the choke.

 I've scrapped a couple cars that had the setup on the exhaust manifold. If it would help you. I'll donate the used box (last two pictures) to the cause.

 

Carl

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Gary, 

There are apparently a few different styles of conversions made. My 1938 Model 61 had a later carburetor on it when I bought it. That car simply had the tube (which was covered in asbestos like insulation covering) routed down to the exhaust manifold near the carburetor. The tube stuck into a small meal nipple attached to the top of a "C" shaped piece of metal that simply wrapped around the exhaust manifold. This photo is not terribly clear but I think you might be able to make it out. I might be able to find it in my spare parts if you don't come up with something in better shape. I think that as long as you find a way to connect the choke to a tube that terminates somewhere near the exhaust manifold, it will work fine. With today's modern fuels, you could probably find that unless your car is outside in freezing temperatures for a lengthy period of time, you probably could do without the choke working anyway.

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Gary:

 

I just wet downstairs and took this. I have a Stromberg AAV-26. I used 3/16" ID copper tubing and coiled the tubing inside the appx 1" ID stove tube that fits nicely into the scalloped area that originally anchored  the choke stove for the AAV-2. I had to use the 3/16" tubing as making the 1/4" id copper tubing curve that sharply was a bit difficult. The lower end of the coil down at the bottom of the stove tube is just open. So the vacuum from the carb draws air in thru the copper tube which is warmed, hopefully, in the coil area inside the stove tube. A bit hokey but it works.

 

The dark looking tape on the copper tube is actually F4 tape, just on temporarily until I can get some of the woven-type inulated cover.

 

Cheers, Dave20181104_231116.thumb.jpg.026eca584926db6547ef4004181ae4ea.jpg

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On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:55 PM, Gary W said:

Wednesday October 31, 2018:  Measuring for the Robe Rail:

 

I want to show you what photos I have from the disassembly, and the trouble locating the outer mounting holes:

 

DSC_0259.thumb.jpg.cbf0827431dbbe5afefa9e9224862e2a.jpg

This photo shows the outer passenger side attachment, but without perspective, It's hard to see where it actually goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I

 

 

 

 

I'm sure when you took this photo it was to document the robe rail.  Ha!  I do the same thing all the time looking for stuff.

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Gary, I`ve put a dual carb set-up on my `36 Buick (`41 248 engine) had to have the manifold milled flat(where the carbs mount)because the engine in the `36 is level and the `41 is tilted. I decided to not use the primary/secondary WCDs with progressive linkage. I`m using two front WCD carbs with parallel linkage, both carbs have chokes. What I did on my auto choke, something most people are probably not aware of, is I used a Holley electric choke, fits perfectly, but works backwards from the stock auto-choke. I took the element (bi-metal coil) out flipped it over, bingo, works perfect. I put one on each carb. I think you`ll find, that the hole where your original starter switch mounts, is restricted and may not pull enough vacuum to operate the wipers. Your car is going to run so much better with the WCD. Also, congrats on an excellent build.. Tom

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Sunday November 11, 2018:   The  Marvel  -  To  -  Carter  Carburetor  Swap:  (Part One)

First:  To the VETS:  THANK YOU all for your service and sacrifice.  I admire what you do for us everyday.

 

 

Today I finished the conversion from the original Marvel BD to my NOS Carter 608S.

It really is not a big job to make the conversion, and after finishing, the difference in the idle and overall performance is noticeable.

 

Here's what I did:

 

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The old, original, tired Marvel Carburetor.  This was leaking gasoline into the engine.  It always needed three or four "pumps" of the accelerator to start.

 

 

 

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Marvel gone and all its attachments are just hanging free.

 

 

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The NOS Carter 608S.  Not bolted in yet, but in position so I can start making some preliminary measurements.

 

 

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I went to Home Depot and got some stock.  Aluminum bar is  1 1/2" X 1/8".  The Steel stock is 3"  X  3/16".

 

 

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Using the carburetor, I measured from the center of the throttle plate to the link mounting hole.  Being this carburetor works opposite from the Marvel. I had to make a new throttle linkage.

I measured the 2 3/4", added a little for waste and made the cut.  

 

 

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Again, I used the carburetor to mark where the holes go.  Then I attached washers and outlined them as a guide for the trimming.

 

 

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I used a basic shape that "Car Geek" showed me on page 8 back on April 8, 2017:

For the automatic choke unit blanking plate, I simply traced the back of the unit onto the steel as a template.

 

 

 

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I attached the plate with a paper gasket under it.  Nothing is painted yet, I wanted to be sure everything worked as it should.

At this point, the "divorced" automatic choke unit is gone, replaced with a steel blanking plate.

The vacuum start switch is gone

I moved the wiper attachment back to where the vacuum start switch used to be

 

 

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And the modified throttle linkage after trimming and smoothing on the kids belt sander. 

I had to also trim down the screws and nuts so they cleared that large screw back there.

Next was to bend a new throttle rod, which you see above just beginning to get bent.  I used 1/4" Stainless Steel rod.  It had to be heated to make the bends.

You can see the 1/4" brass ferrule.  It prevents the washer from making the turn and sliding down the throttle rod and by it's shape keeps everything nicely centered there.

 

 

Part two next:

 

 

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Sunday November 11, 2018:   The  Marvel  -  To  -  Carter  Carburetor  Swap:  (Part Two)

 

Finishing the throttle rod and the new gas line:

 

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First I used an old brass rod to make a template for the new throttle rod.  

After I was satisfied, I heated and bent the stainless rod into a geometric "Z" pattern that fits nicely under the manifolds  and looks nice and neat under there.

Again, using the gas pedal to check the extremes of movement, I marked where it had to be cut and threaded for the attachment to the accelerator linkage on the firewall.

You can see the rod just loose above.

 

 

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The stainless is pretty hard, but with some oil, it tapped.

 

 

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Then the adjustment part.

 

 

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And back to the car to adjust, install and cotter.

Then I attached the return spring in a manner where it pulls back and keeps the throttle rod at a nice level position.

 

 

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On to the gas line.  It is 5/16" Stainless tubing.  First slip on the nipple.

 

 

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Line it up flush in the correct hole.

 

 

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John bought over his flaring stuff and taught me how to use it.

Lock it in the correct hole...

 

 

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Then slowly turn in on the wedge and it creates a nice flare.

 

 

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First bend and flare done.  I followed the original bends up the block and over the engine behind the water pump.

But after that, every bend was done the same way:

Attach the tube to the fuel pump, mark the next bend with a sharpie right in the car.

Remove the tube, make the bend, check the angle....  mark the next one.

Tedious, but the job came out nice and neat.

 

 

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So, at the end of part two, I have the throttle linkage all fabricated and hooked up.

The new gas line and vacuum advance line rerouted and installed.

And the wires from the vacuum start switch fit right onto the new carburetor without any modification.

 

Next....  Part three   the choke heat stove

 

 

 

 

Edited by Gary W (see edit history)
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Sunday November 11, 2018:   The  Marvel  -  To  -  Carter  Carburetor  Swap:  (Part Three)

The choke heat pipe

 

This was the last thing to do to get the new carburetor installed and functioning.

Luckily, Carl sent me his heater, and it worked out perfectly!

 

 

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From the last page.  Here is the part I bolted to the manifold.  The "U" bolt comes in from the back to hold it tight.

 

 

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Using an old piece of tubing, I made a rough template to follow.

 

 

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Carl's piece bolted in nice and tight, and the new copper tube exiting the hole and running up to the carburetor.

 

 

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This was actually a very easy tube to make. 

Again, flared it and attached it to the carburetor.

I'm still waiting for the "asbestos" wrap to come in to finish it nice, but that's all it needs.

 

 

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Here's the overview of the completed conversion.

I am going to paint some things now that I know it all works in there fine.

 

 

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So, I had to take her out and feel the difference.

First....  after sitting for 5 days, I didn't pump at all.  Simply turned on the key, stepped on the accelerator pedal and "boom" she fired right off!

I ran her for a good 10 miles, and when I came back, the choke was fully open and that copper tube was too hot to touch!

 

There is a noticeable difference in the idle.  So much smoother and slower.

The car has a little more pep.

The accelerator pedal is nice and smooth.  All the new linkages removed all the slop from the old ones.

 

 

 

 

B E F O R E   A N D    A F T E R:

 

 

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B E F O R E

 

 

 

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A F T E R 

 

Have a great night!

Gary

 

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Wednesday November 14, 2018:  Front Door Armrests

 

These installed nice and easy.  LeBaron recovered them for me, and sent very large  #14 X  2 1/2" screws to attach them to the door.

 

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I first rolled down the window.  Then, you can easily feel the depression in the door panel and if you look down the inside of the door, it is easy to poke the awl through the fabric and watch it line up with the holes in the door.

 

 

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Remove the bottom trim piece.

 

 

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Again, run the large screws in at an uphill angle WHILE watching through the top of the door to align everything.  

At this point, run the windows up and down to be sure the screws do not interfere with the glass or mechanism.

If there is trouble, you can trim the screws to clear.

 

 

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Reattach the trim piece

 

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and just like that, the door is finally finished.

 

 

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So, that was an easy and fun project today.  

 

But there's more...........

 

 

 

Edited by Gary W (see edit history)
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