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Model 20 rear wheel play


robertely
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Greetings Hupmobile entusiasts.

I have recently become the owner of a Hupmobile Model 20 and was wondering if you could offer some advice.

I have a little play on the rear wheels/axle.  I have attached some photos of the rear shaft and brakes and was wondering if you could confirm what type the axle is.  The brake drums are 10" diameter and the shaft has a tapered end (model C?).  The only number I could find was on the front of the right hand chassis rail and is 15362.

My plan is to remove the half shafts and rear drum and take them to my engineer who should be able to reweld and machine them.  Just wanted to check if this was the correct way to go about the repair? Would anyone have any measurements - should it be a push on fit or tighter? As well as normal wear you may be able to notice the crack next to the keyway on the drum.

Is it possible to remove just the half shafts without dismantling the rear axle?  If anyone could offer a dismantling procedure or any machining advice it would be greatly appreciated.

 

I have taken it out for a few test drives and all is well except for the steering which seems to want to dart away when driving in a straight line at higher speeds.  I have measured the tracking and the wheels toe in at the front by 20-30mm compared to the rear, so there's no toe out.  I contacted the previous owner (Netherlands) who has told me that his grandfather always thought that the front axle was mounted the wrong way around.   Any advice on what to check next would also be greatly appreciated.

 

Finally, are there any Hupmobile contacts or clubs based in the UK?

 

Thanks in advance

Robert Ely

 

 

 

 

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There should also be numbers on the tops of the flanges which connect engine and transmission.  !5,xxx is well into the 1911 model year.  If you have end play in the rear end, the bearings or bearing surfaces inside the differential are probably bad, these are round, flat, stamped sheet metal housings with either balls or rollers in them, to provide a thrust bearing.  The tapered shaft is consistent with 1911, earlier cars had non-tapered.  You have to take the rear end apart to remove the shafts, which you should do anyway, and it's very simple.

 

Mine doesn't "dart", so there's some set up problem with yours.  The axle casting itself sets the camber, check for wear on king pins, and as you mention how front axle is installed.  Standing at the front of the car, you should see a very noticeable tilt to the front wheels, with the top of the wheel further out than the bottom of the wheel.  I tried to find a dead on front picture but can't, here's my 1910 Model 20...

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G,day Robert and Huppers.  Lift out your floor boards and look on the top corner of the second cross member from the front, right were it joins into the left hand chassis rail. Look on the back edge and there will be the car number, This is also the chassis number and is never the same as the engine number that David describes. It is on the cross member not on the chassis rail. For comparison my touring is Car No 9499 with engine No 9630 My sons roadster is Car 9223 Engine is 9404.Both these cars arrived in Australia August / September 1911 Don,t pussy about with the worn axle tapers and keyways  Have your machine shop make new axles because they will be worn where the Hyatt flex roller bearings run on the axle. Likewise Have them make new rear hubs as with the splits they will never stay tight on the new rear  axles . Perhaps this is work that you can do yourself ? When you dismantle the differential you might like to replace the Hyatt  bearings on the carrier with deep grove ball races. These will not require the troublesome ball or small roller thrust bearings There is also a Babbit bearing in the axle housing that bears on the shaft to reduce the oil leaking down the axles. It uses the tube rivetts as retainers. There is a change in the torque tube in early 1911 and an extra hyatt flex bearing was fitted in front of the pinion. The ball was then screwed on to the tube to give easier pinion pree load adjustment. Earlier cars had a riveted on ball but as with most export units the superseded parts were used up  on units bound for far off markets. For this reason it is unreliable to use mechanical spec for accurate dating. With regard to your steering you might experiment altering the caster by making longer back shackle plates Make a few different lengths to determine which gives the best improvement This is easier than making wedges!.Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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Thank you kindly Sirs.  I will investigate the chassis/engine number. Unfortunately I don't yet have the facilities or skills to machine the axle.

The rear axle looks quite easy to remove.  I would just like to check that the propshaft can be unbolted from the differential casing and axle withdrawn.  Also is there any tension on the rear leaf spring or axle rod when I remove the bolt at each end of the leaf?

 

Out of interest, could someone inform me what the contraption attached to the exhaust is?

 

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G,day Robert and Huppers.  Robert , you might think about  releasing the top mounting of the spring, take off the torque rods and brake rods and lower down the axle assembly until you can slide back the torque tube from the gearbox. This will let you work on your bench . Yes you will need to have a spring spreader to seperate the axle housings. A FORD one will do nicely. Double check the area where the torque tube bolts to the axle housings . If there are cracks this is were they will be . You cannot take out the axles without removing the nuts holding them in the sun wheels. The planitary cross may be date stamped. You have the later type torque tube with the Hyatt bearing and a timken at the pinion end.. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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Thanks again for the hints everyone. The rear axle was very easy to remove with the rods and top leaf mountings removed.  I have attached a photo of the axle housing which does indeed have a crack around 1" long.  I am currently getting a spring spreader made up so I will have to wait before opening the axle up.  I do have a few more questions though:

Is the wear on the end of the torque tube excessive?

When it comes to removing the spring and bar, would I be best advised to fit the spring spreader, then release the two sliding tubes (drifting out the rivets), unwind the spring spreader and then remove the two bolts on the end of the leaf springs?  

Is the cracked housing easy enough for a competent welder to repair?

 

Regards

Robert

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G,day Huppers. Robert ,you can make a usable spreader with a suitable length of steel tubing and two bolts to fit into the ends and using the nuts to expand the spring.. With the pressure of the spring released take out the pins from the spring eyes and lift away the spring. Then unscrew each of the oil resovoir nuts on the ends of the sliding trunnion shaft. This will allow each axle housing to be slid off the shafts after taking out the bolts. Looks like the damage to the gears is old news and happened when the torque tube came loose from the axle housing . The cracks can be welded or better still braised. All this has been played with before shown by the centre punch marks to tighten the timken cup in the torque tube. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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I managed to remove the spring and separate the casings exactly as suggested.  The shafts were easily disassembled and to my untrained eye the bearings look in very good condition.  A couple of the bearings at the outer end of the casing have come loose but look in good condition.  There is a crack on the gear at the end of the shaft and looks like this will also need to be remade.

I have the shafts and wheel hubs ready to hand over to my engineer but I am unsure as to the exact material required, surface requirements and if there are any special instructions I should pass on to him, in particular, clearance for the tapered hub to axle. He is very experienced, but not with automotive work.   Any suggestions here would be gratefully received. 

 

Robert

 

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Edited by robertely (see edit history)
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  • 4 months later...
On 2017-1-14 at 9:28 PM, Max BURKE said:

G,day Huppers. Robert ,you can make a usable spreader with a suitable length of steel tubing and two bolts to fit into the ends and using the nuts to expand the spring.. With the pressure of the spring released take out the pins from the spring eyes and lift away the spring. Then unscrew each of the oil resovoir nuts on the ends of the sliding trunnion shaft. This will allow each axle housing to be slid off the shafts after taking out the bolts. Looks like the damage to the gears is old news and happened when the torque tube came loose from the axle housing . The cracks can be welded or better still braised. All this has been played with before shown by the centre punch marks to tighten the timken cup in the torque tube. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

 

Thanks for the advice.  As a warning to others I thought I'd show my abysmal attempt at a spreader bar!

 

 

 

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Greetings

Below is a photo of two new shafts and hubs as made by a friend and engineer in Holland.  The axle is back on and under testing.  

I thought I'd mention that the new shafts appears to have cleared up my steering problem - I previously had a couple of 'moments' at 'high' speed with the worn axle. I had read on this forum that the earlier straight end axles when worn could affect the steering badly and I would say this is also true of the later model C tapered end axles.  

 

Best regards

Robert

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