1938 Cadillac V16 for sale

[Guest Tomsriv]

Hi All,

  I am selling a '38 Cadillac V16.  See the ad on Hemmings

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/cadillac/v-16/1896045.html

 

Tom

Edited December 27, 2016 by Tomsriv (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Tom, who would replace a Cadillac V-16 engine

with a Chevrolet 350!  It may have been done

before you got the car, and I hope any buyer can

locate a proper engine to get your car back to spec.

 

All the best to you on its sale, and the car's coming restoration!

[Robert G. Smits]

John, there are no replacement 38-40 V-16 engines out there.  People on the Cadillac forums have been searching for years.  The Chevy was probably the only alternate available to get the car back on the road.  If anyone knows of a replacement V-16 block let me know, I could use one..  Bob Smits

[George Smolinski]

1 hour ago, Robert G. Smits said:

John, there are no replacement 38-40 V-16 engines out there.  People on the Cadillac forums have been searching for years.  The Chevy was probably the only alternate available to get the car back on the road.  If anyone knows of a replacement V-16 block let me know, I could use one..  Bob Smits

This ad was run here a while ago -

apacap    4

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Posted December 4 · Report post

1930 Cadillac V16 engine and chassis for sale or trade for Duesenberg parts. I have  a complete 1930 Cadillac V16 engine and chassis for sale or trade for complete Model J Duesenberg rear axle assembly. This is an excellent condition chassis that has been in storage since the 50's and has original paint on the chassis. The engine has never been removed from the chassis and is complete with carbs, manifold and all the goodies. Has cowl, hood and complete grill and shell that are excellent. Rolling on the original wire wheels in great shape. Perfect candidate for a roadster build. Call Allen at 217 778 1425 for more info and photos. Looking to purchase J Dusie rear axle unit, have other J parts for sale or trade as well. Somewhere there is an axle laying in a garage that will never be used, why not sell it or trade for a fabulous piece of history. Hope to hear from you!!!

 

Granted it's a 1930, but I would think it's a helluvalot better than a 350 Chevy. I think I'd even install a Caddy V8 from that era before a 350.

[Guest BillP]

The early 16 was a narrow angle OHV, the later one almost a pancake (135 degrees?) flathead. Completely different engines.

 

Yes, nearly anything better than a 350/350 in that car.

[Grimy]

George, the 1930-37 V-16 was a 60-degree OHV engine entirely different from the 1938-40 135-degree L-head V-16.  IIRC, only about 530 of the latter were built.  A Cad flathead V-8 would be easier than the Chevy; the 1938-40 Series 75 was a V-8 and shared the same body and chassis as the V-16, but with a different front clip and less fender trim. 

[alsancle]

There are actually quite a few of the earlier 16 floating around as they made a large number of cars (10k plus?).  

 

I imagine the front clip is also significantly longer on the 16?  It was on the 30-37,

[Grimy]

I haven't counted myself, but it is often said in Cadillac circles that there exist today more 1938-40 Sixteen open cars than were produced 1938-40.  This is the result of 1938-40 Sixteen engines and front clips being transplanted from Sixteen closed cars (sedans & limos) into/onto formerly Series 75 open cars.

[Grimy]

32 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I imagine the front clip is also significantly longer on the 16?  It was on the 30-37,

Not on the 1938-40 Sixteen, which shared the same 141.3-inch wheelbase--and body--with the 75.  Overall length of the 75 (I had a 7-p sedan for 42 years) was 225 inches, and I doubt the Sixteen had more than an inch or two more of overall length.  Contrasted is the 1934-37 Sixteen, whose wb was 154 inches....

[trimacar]

A late friend of mine had a late 30's V-16, and I remember opening the hood, and the engine seemed like it was at the bottom of a pit, it was so far down in the engine compartment.  Seems like all service would have had to come from the sides underneath.

 

Surely there would be a few engines sitting around to get this car back to original, if so desired.  I hate that they changed it, but a $30K+ engine rebuild versus a $4K crate engine, even spending the money to convert, probably made financial sense to someone at some point.  And no, I'm not advocating changing out V-12's or V-16's, just pointing out that someone may have owned it who only had the wherewithal to fix it as it now sits.

[jdome]

There were only 400 flat head V16's built between 38-40

[George Smolinski]

5 hours ago, jdome said:

There were only 400 flat head V16's built between 38-40

I'm curious as to how you know that for sure. Is there some type of factory documentation?

[trimacar]

I believe it's pretty well documented, I was not aware there were that few 38-40 sixteens made, a total of 453.  Interesting that there are no spare engines around.  From Wikipedia:

 

"The V-16 "Series 90" and V-12 "Series 80 and 85", were essentially merged for 1938 with the introduction of the new L-head V-16. The new engine was an "L Head" (AKA flathead) design, and featured a wider (135 degree) v-angle, twin carburetors, twin fuel pumps, twin distributors, twin water pumps, and a nine main bearing crankshaft (compared to the OHV V-16's five bearing crank) and produced the same 185 hp (138 kW) as later versions of the original V-16 with even greater smoothness and endowed the '38–'40 Sixteens with the swiftest acceleration of any car in the world at the time regardless of weight as well as slightly improved fuel economy over the OHV V-16 cars. This engine was nearly silent at idle and turbine-smooth in operation. The wheelbase was reduced to 141.0 in (3,581 mm), the body remained 222.0 in (5,639 mm) in overall length. The "Sixteens" (as Cadillac referred to them) were basically series 75 cars with the new V-16 engine although they differed from the firewall forward from the V-8 cars and had several other trim differences. The instrument panels were identical to and changed yearly with the V-8 cars from 1938 to 1940. Only the '38 Sixteens had a horn button which had "Sixteen" in art deco script; the '39 and '40 models, like the V-8, had the Cadillac crest on the button. Three hundred fifteen were sold in the first year, 138 in the next. The production of the 1940 models ended in December 1939."

[edinmass]

The late style flat head V-16 was built for a different purpose than auto production. GM was busy before the war designing modern buses to replace the trolley lines, and the new 16 was cheaper to manufacture, and designed to go in the rear of a bus, the 135 degree V lowered the overall height of the engine, a requirement for bus production. Many of the motors made their way into boats due to their low profile, fitting well into the 30's era wooden speed boats. I have come across three of them over the years, never even bothered to try and purchase one. I have had the chance to play with one while a friend was rebuilding it. You could see three factory casting repairs performed when new. It's probably why it didn't end up in a tank or other WWII vehicle. The V-8 Cadillac was modified and used in the Stuart tanks, and gave satisfactory performance after LOTS of upgrades. Same as the five bank Chrysler tank engine. Overall my opinion of the late sixteen motor is while interesting, it wasn't that great of a performer. They are nice road cars, and I have enjoyed touring in them several times. Dave was right, open the hood and you see a big void, and a motor that's hard to work on over the fenders. Without the war, the "new" overhead valve motor was just a short time away. I wonder if anyone has photos and reports of the late sixteen in a bus, it would be interesting reading. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Reminds me of my first truly significant barn find, well, actually chicken coupe find. Early on in our professional restoration career we were working on an MGA Coupe. The owner and his new girlfriend stopped in to check on the work. The girlfriend noticed a '28 Cadillac sedan we also had in the shop and remarked that it reminded her of a pair of Cadillacs her neighbor had in a large chicken coupe when she was a small girl. She and her friends were allowed to play in the cars. She also remarked that they had V-16 emblems on them. My ears perked up. She told us where this chicken coupe was so of course we checked it out and sure enough both cars were still there and in solid condition. Both were '39s and both were V-16s. One was a limo, the other an open front town car. The lady who owned them said they couldn't be sold because she and her husband were separated. She had the cars, he had the titles and lived many states away. Of course at the time I couldn't afford them anyway. Eventually they were sold and I lost track of them. 

[Robert G. Smits]

George, the front clip on the series 75 and 90 are identical except for the grill, hood side panels  and trim.  Overall length is identical also.  If my memory is correct the CCC has six more 38-40 conv cps registered than were made by the factory.

David,I have been searching for a block since 1985.  For 10 years I walked around Hershey with a sandwich sign asking for leads on a replacement engine with negative results.  I have followed more false leads than I can count.

I was told by Ron Van Geldren that production of the 40 model ceased because the factory had used up all of available replacement engines.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

duplicate post removed

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I was able to check back on two of the three engines I remember, and it turns out two were the same engine that had moved around and is now installed in a car. (Done about fifteen years ago.) The third's owner has been gone over twenty five years and there's no way to chase it. You would think that a sixteen in a bone yard would have been saved by a few of the car nuts over the years. If you do the math, with gas rationing the late model cars couldn't have been used too much before the gas ran out from the war. I don't think too many would have been scrapped as they were just too new, and I don't think by the early fifties that they would have been sent out for scrap. When I think about it, with about 450 built, you don't see too many today of any style. It would be interesting to know if there is a late sixteen registry and what has survived to this day. The plain sedans bring less money than one would think, and the verified correct open cars bring very substantial premiums. A 8/16 swap recent price would be interesting to ponder.........30% of a correct one? 

Edited December 28, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[mike6024]

This link says 514 total - http://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V6prod38.htm

 

And there is this for the earlier OHV - http://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V16_ndx.htm

[CarlLaFong]

The car is in Camarillo, CA, not far from me. I wonder if it is the same V-16 that I used to see in Sylmar, CA about 15 years ago. Can't be to many of them in the LA area. The one that I saw seemed to be an every day driver. Sorta shabby, but all there and solid

[roysboystoys]

Here's one that was not mentioned

 

https://blog.hemmings.com/?p=83431

[edinmass]

Cadillac database is an interesting read. I remember one more engine, from new it was used for propeller design at Pratt &Whitney in Connecticut. It was still in use twenty years ago, as we rebuilt the water pumps and carbs for them. I bet it is still there. They spent a fair amount of money keeping it and not upgrading. I could never understand why they used it for propeller testing unless there was some other reason they had it and just decided to use it for the propellers. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

7 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

... She told us where this chicken coupe was so of course we checked it out and sure enough both cars were still there and in solid condition. Both were '39s and both were V-16s. One was a limo, the other an open front town car.... 

 

It sounds as if they weren't chicken coupes--they were chicken sedans---

[Restorer32]

Why did the chicken cross the road? Because that is where he parked his coupe.

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

Dad purchased a 38 from  Joe Bettis's of Vermont 

 

 

 

Dad is an engineer, now 85 and this is his dream car.    We looked for an extra engine he could tinker with and 

was told the V-16 135* blocks were hard to find and the original castings had some problems with breaking.

His engine was good casting wise so he rebuilt it...with internal modifications like custom pistons and hydraulic roller cam.  

He had visions of a driver he could take on long road trips...its not quite there but he keeps working on it.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Wildcat65 (see edit history)

[jim43]

In the late 60s there was a V-16 on display in the Cadillac dealership showroom in, I think it was Ukiah, California. It was an easy stop off of Hwy 101.

I have seen one or two on Craigslist in recent years, the whole cars, in sunk to the axles for many years in a barn condition that didn't go for a lot of money. Poor conditioned cars but with V-16 drivetrains.  It is surprising what turns up on CL but it takes a daily haunt of every region in the country to find rare stuff. And when it pops up, act quickly but with the due caution required avoid a scam.   Good luck;   Jim43