PA Wants Y.O.M. Plates Returned

[MochetVelo]

I recently sold my 1924 Model T roadster to a guy in New Jersey. Several weeks later, I got a letter from the PA Dept of Motor Vehicles asking why I cancelled my insurance. I wrote explaining that, since I sold the car, I no longer needed insurance. A couple weeks passed, and another letter says I better explain why I don't have insurance. I replied again, this time including a copy of the bill of sale. A  few weeks later (12/12/16), another letter arrives threatening a $500 "civil penalty" or 3-month suspension of the registration (like I say, I sold the car, so not sure what this means). I have the right to appeal the suspension in the Court of Common Pleas. Anyway, they also want my "registration plate, sticker and card". Not sure what the "sticker and card" are. The plates are 1924 Pennsylvania Y.O.M. (Year-of-Manufacture) plates, which I included in the sale. 

 

All these were form letters. None recognized nor indicated any knowledge of my replies. In fact, the most recent letter lists the car as a "2024" model year.

 

Of course, I'll try my best to work this all out, but one question I have is this: Must one return Y.O.M. plates to the state when you sell the car?

 

Phil

 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I think they haven't realized you sold the car. 

That they are demanding plates because you don't have insurance on the car. 

[F&J]

I agree...Yes, I think it is the insurance issue.

 

 

 My impression?   Here in my State of CT, you get a big fine if insurance ever lapses on a registered car.  My state gets notices from insurers, if it expires, or non-payment issue, or if the owner cancels.  My state wants proof the car is not being driven with the former plate, and that is why you must turn the plates in, if insurance is not in effect.

 

Someone here in CT made, or tried to make a point about taking a 6 month vacation in Hawaii, and that was supposed to be a legit excuse why they dropped the insurance for the 6 months, as they left the car here in CT.  The State won that argument, and said the owner could have temporarily left the plates with DVM, and then pick them up after the trip concluded, but with proof of insurance renewed.

 

In my state, we have to get/pay for, the "classic car plate".  Then if we want YOM, we fill out a special form, buy a pair of old plates, bring them to DMV for visual inspection and a photo scan for their records.  That is no-charge for YOM recording.  Then use the YOMs, but the pair of Classic plates must be kept inside the car...at all times. 

 

If I sell a car, I then turn in the Classic plates to DMV, or transfer them to a new classic I just bought.   I never have sold a car I had YOMs on, so you bring up a good issue for me to think about, if I do sell one.   ..meaning, what happens the YOMs

 

[JFranklin]

My strategy is to ignore ignorant and rude bureaucrats. In Oregon when you sell a car you notify the DMV and give the info on the new purchaser. If you don't and the car is subsequently involved in a crime they will knock on your door and you may get TAZED!

[jpage]

I think that they notified you since they show the vehicle as being a newer vehicle. When I sold my Model A , I never was asked or notified to return the plate.I'm sure that you can get it resolved.

[padgett]

You mean you can buy insurance for a car that has not yet been built ? Interesting.

 

In Florida I register my cars for two years at a time. Normally it can all be done by mail (for slight additional fee) but one year one of the cars had a note that it needed a proof of insurance before the sticker would be issued. Turned out when I bought the car two years before, the insurance company got one digit wrong and I didn't notice, just paid the bill. Was the first time it was noticed.

 

ps sticker for a YOM plate (prior to 1975) costs the same as any other custom plate: $25/year extra.

[bobg1951chevy]

2 hours ago, MochetVelo said:

I recently sold my 1924 Model T roadster to a guy in New Jersey. Several weeks later, I got a letter from the PA Dept of Motor Vehicles asking why I cancelled my insurance. I wrote explaining that, since I sold the car, I no longer needed insurance. A couple weeks passed, and another letter says I better explain why I don't have insurance. I replied again, this time including a copy of the bill of sale. A  few weeks later (12/12/16), another letter arrives threatening a $500 "civil penalty" or 3-month suspension of the registration (like I say, I sold the car, so not sure what this means). I have the right to appeal the suspension in the Court of Common Pleas. Anyway, they also want my "registration plate, sticker and card". Not sure what the "sticker and card" are. The plates are 1924 Pennsylvania Y.O.M. (Year-of-Manufacture) plates, which I included in the sale. 

 

All these were form letters. None recognized nor indicated any knowledge of my replies. In fact, the most recent letter lists the car as a "2024" model year.

 

Of course, I'll try my best to work this all out, but one question I have is this: Must one return Y.O.M. plates to the state when you sell the car?

 

Phil

 

Why would you not choose to contact your PA DMV Headquarters I( state capital ) for an absolute answer on the Y.O.M plates?

[GK1918]

Pretty sure its the same here in Ma.  you cancel Ins. you suppose to return plates but It depends on how sacred

the plate is.  My case is a low digit hand me down plates  from around 1903.  I sold the vehicle it was on but kept

very low limit insurance  just renewing the same car I sold, because sooner or later the plate will go on something else. 

Here it also is 2 year renewal on plates  So they were in my draw for a few yrs and now on a 46 Ford.  Fact is you are

dealing with idiots.  They can't get threw the big hole in there heads  that plates can be bought on ebay.  My kid just got

a set of Mass 1934 plates for his Ford all he did is run down the police station and have them run it >comes back

no response  fat -0- so they are good to go... In recap my plates have been at this residence since grandfather got

rid of a horse and I just feel If I loose them when I drop dead,  either my father or his father gonna give me a beaten...

[Frantz]

In Pa you are supposed to return registration plates after you're not using them, that being said, I've got a huge collection of tags from cars as I have always requested a new plate and never returned an old one. Never once have I received a letter. Additionally, plates can be taken out of registration for 5 years I believe before they recirculate them. I had a camper I hadn't registered for awhile and assumed I needed new tags and when I called up they said a plate was already assigned to that vehicle. Something triggered something for your situation, what insurance company are you with? Maybe a call to them and tell them to stop sending information to the state as the car was sold. YOM plates are somewhat new for PA so I have yet to experience that transfer, and didn't even consider the states expectations prior. After all I never return the current state issued plates, let along one from 90 years ago. I'd call DMV up too and be as vague as possible with the only goal being to stop the harassment. There are many gray areas in PA DMV, so you really just need to right person going to work for you there.

[John348]

11 hours ago, JFranklin said:

My strategy is to ignore ignorant and rude bureaucrats. 

 

^^^^^^ That might not be the best game plan, ^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

 

10 hours ago, padgett said:

the insurance company got one digit wrong and I didn't notice, just paid the bill. Was the first time it was noticed.

 

^^^^^^^^ I had the same exact situation with one of my antique cars registered in Florida. It was an insurance company muff.  I think the OP's problem might be on the insurance company's end. I would start there first, all it takes is the strike of a wrong key.

It also would not hurt to ask the local law enforcement about the letter from DMV and for some direction if possible 

[John_S_in_Penna]

49 minutes ago, Frantz said:

In Pa you are supposed to return registration plates after you're not using them, that being said, I've got a huge collection of tags from cars as I have always requested a new plate and never returned an old one. Never once have I received a letter.... 

 

That's probably typical, and I doubt that

many Penna. residents return old plates.

 

I think it was just a state employee's lack of understanding

to give you a letter wanting "back" their 1924-dated plates!

I would work it out with the state, and it probably won't be

too hard.  State employees are real people, and I've found

that they're usually kind and understanding if treated well.

 

To keep the big-government machinery at your service,

telephone them.  Get the PennDOT employee's name

and number and always follow through with the same person there. 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

F&J, will be testing CT DMV at some point this year when we go to do two things - 

 

1) swap the "Early American" (old style antique plates they stopped a couple years ago) on our '89 MB SL roadster with the "classic car" plates on our Model A - just seems to be a better fit as the "classic car" plates are a bit more generic.

 

2) Update the 1930 Model A registration to use a set of YOM plates I last had...on another '30 Model A that was sold almost 10 years ago.  When the car was sold we cancelled the registration of course, but I do not know how they disposition the YOM plates.  To my knowledge, all they do here in CT is give you that slip of paper and make a note in the system.  At least if system shows they are still in use, I can point out that I am the owner/user of the plates.  

  

Somehow, I feel this will generate confusion.  We have been waiting to do this due to both the office closures and system upgrades at CT DMV, both of which seem to have really been a challenge for DMV.

 

I do think the PA issue is insurance related, sounds like something a quick trip should resolve.

[padgett]

Every state is different but in Florida there is a $225 "new plate fee" and I own the plates, registration is the sticker in the upper right corner. You can turn them in and the state will keep track of them or keep the plate and use on the next car you buy.

 

Also you can check the VIN on the DMV web site to make sure the title has been transferred when sold. Of course I also keep a copy of everything.

[60FlatTop]

In New York it costs $2.00 to curtail the use of your plates on the car they are registered to. You get a form for the insurance company and a registration stamped "not valid with these plates". And the option to keep or turn in the plates.

 

I see a lot of questionable things regarding government dealings with the masses. I know the whole system is reactionary. It's not a problem with me, it's the guy who came before.

Bernie

[46 woodie]

I would ask to speak to a supervisor at your local DMV, and explain the situation. I had an issue with my local DMV some years ago when I tried to register a Model A. I had every form that was given to me by the DMV and all the other documents they require. When I got to the window the DMV agent refused my signed, by both parties and notarized bill of sale. When I asked why he said "it just doesn't look right". I asked to see a supervisor and he looked over my papers and turned to the agent and said "what's with you, whats wrong with his notarized bill of sale". The agent just shrugged his shoulders and gave me the registration. I'm sure there is some sort of mix up in your case.

[Restorer32]

In PA if you sell a car while the registration is current and you have it insured you are supposed to return the plate before you cancel the insurance. If the registration runs out before you sell the vehicle you can cancel the insurance with no repercussions. The DMV's computer only sees that there is a currently registered plate in circulation with no insurance. Make sense?

[Restorer32]

In PA you have to prove you have insurance before you can register a vehicle and get tags. Unscrupulous folks would buy insurance, have a car registered then cancel the insurance. 

[MochetVelo]

I understand why they require insurance, but what if you pay $5,000 for a pair of 1905 Y.O.M. PA plates, and then sell the car... do you have to return those plates to the state?

 

Phil

[ArticiferTom]

The YOM plates and antiques can be transferred . With a sign letter of transfer to new owner ,that they must copy summit to Pa DMV with other paper work to register . They don not say about out of state sales . But if NJ does not want that should be mute . It does say the plate can be saved and used on another vehicle in future . This is written in Pa YOM  explanation of , on there web site . Pa. state .gov .  This is what I am interrupting .

[bobg1951chevy]

4 hours ago, MochetVelo said:

I understand why they require insurance, but what if you pay $5,000 for a pair of 1905 Y.O.M. PA plates, and then sell the car... do you have to return those plates to the state?

 

Phil

If you paid $5,000 for a pair of Y.O.M. plates, there is bigger problem in your live than the D.M.V.

[JV Puleo]

That is a perfectly good question. If the owner of the car bought the plates, what right does the state have to ask for them? We don't have anything like this YOM plate thing in RI, where I live, but I've never even seen a pair of the earliest black & white porcelain plates... I've probably only seen 2 or 3 singles in about 40 years. I've no idea what a pair would sell for (or if they were even issued in pairs) but given the asking prices for some automobile ephemera, $5,000 wouldn't shock me.

[Restorer32]

10 hours ago, AJFord54 said:

As mentioned previously - why don't you just drive down to the motor vehicles and ask them?  They should know the answer.

 

In Pa you cannot just "drive down to the DMV" since the only DMV (actually PennDot) office is in downtown Harrisburg.

[Restorer32]

We do have privately owned and operated "messsenger services" that can transfer titles, issue plates etc. but anything out of the ordinary and they are lost.

[padgett]

Around Orlando these daze there are DMV offices north, south, east , west, and central. It is best to make an appointment and they will page your cell phone when near. I own my plates and the state just sells me a sticker (with the plate number) every two years. We have over 100 custom plates plus I can supply a YOM (pre-'75). (Often feel sorry for cops in nearby states trying to figure if a plate is real. Add to the fact that neither my tow dolly nor a car onnit must have a plate. The rules are different here and purely revenue oriented. 

[emjay]

" We do have privately owned and operated "messsenger services" that can transfer titles, issue plates etc. but anything out of the ordinary and they are lost."

The advantage here is there still are some somewhat small businesses that remotely do the DMV services.  Some are even owned by vintage car owners.  They can be very helpful and give good inside advice and they know what will go through and what will be rejected.  There's a lot to be said for dealing with the same person each time as opposed to the clerk who is available.

[huptoy]

It is unfortunate to have to deal with bureaucrats at the DMV, I wish you the best of luck.

 

Is it possible you may have selected the wrong state to live?   There are a few non paved roads in the SE corner but almost all of the state and county roads are paved.

 

Many states assign license plates to a car and expect the owner to in effect, lease the plates from the state.  I know of a state where modern plates must be rented each year or put in the DMV storage.  If you don't put them in storage for say 4 years, you must pay the current year plus the back years registration fees.   Here in Ohio, the plates, for a modern car,  are assigned to a person and the plates can be moved from car to car.  Last march, I purchased a car and sold the old one only going to DMV to record the new car.  I actually have a set of plates that have been on 3 trucks since 1996.

 

Antique plates have a one time charge of about $50.00 and need not be renewed for 40 or 50 years.  Five years ago I sold a 1953 car & kept both the antique & year of Manufacture plate.  I will need to purchase a new antique plate for the next car but if it is a 1953 year, I can reuse the YOM plate.  To convert to a YOM plate, you must keep the antique plate in the car & pay a registration fee of about $5.00.

 

Ohio DMV will randomly send out letters asking for proof of insurance for modern cars but I have never talked with any one requesting information on an antique.  Maybe just the lock of the draw.

 

[MochetVelo]

An update [see first post in the thread]: PennDOT stopped requesting the return of my 1924  YOM plates, but now want a copy of the Bill of Sale. I sent them 2 copies, but they always replied with the same form letter: "send copy of bill of sale." The title place where I signed over the title told me that I need a Bill of Sale with the signatures of both buyer and seller ("no notary required"). Unfortunately, the buyer won't sign it, even though I mailed him a copy with a stamped envelope and a polite request. The reason, I speculate, is that he registered the car in his home state, understating the purchase price to save on sales tax and is afraid he'll be found out. Not sure how to tell this to the state...

 

Phil

Edited January 13, 2017 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

Sounds like such a pain dealing with your DMV - if the other party hasn't filled in their portion of the transfer we just have to fill in a statutory declaration with a form saying we no longer have the vehicle