V12 timing check

[Beltfed]

Getting a tad closer to cranking the motor.  I set the points using a degree chart from an old issue of the Lincoln club magazine.  I am wondering if there is a way to check the timing while the engine is running.  The old Chevys have a set of marks on the fly wheel and of course modern engines have the timing marks on the crank front.  If not, has anyone tried to make a 'set up' so the time can be checked?  I realize it would require two marks but that shouldn't present too big a problem.  One could move the timing light trigger from the number one wire to the first one to fire on the other set of points.  

The coil condensers could be checked with the same test I would think.

[abelincoln]

I think you could use a timing light, but first you'd have to find Top Dead Center (TDC) on cylinder no. 1  This is a problem on the flathead as when you pull a spark plug, you'll see valves, not pistons.  Best way would be to remove the left head and turn engine to TDC, both valves closed.  Then you would need to fabricate a pointer, and add marks on the pulley or damper.  You can purchase a tape for this. 

If you take your distributor to someone with an old machine, the points can be set right on and you don't need to worry about TDC.  I've used Philbin Manufacture AKA "flathead doctor" here in Portland.  Philbin also has a solid state points kit for the V-12.

Abe

[Beltfed]

I'm going to reach out to a very knowledgeable mechanic friend of mine to see if there's a trick to finding TDC on these flatheads.  He has been messing with and teaching motors for over 40 years.  We will see.

[19tom40]

I strongly advise you to have the points timed on a distributor machine, by someone that has lots of experience with the Zephyr distributor. That way not only the initial timing can be set, but the advance mechanism can be checked out. Bad advance curves can lead to overheating, just like incorrect initial timing.

 

TDC can be found using a vacuum gauge, but I have reservations about using a timing light to set the break time of the points. You have to remove the distributor for each adjustment of the points, put it back on the car and recheck the setting. The other problem is to accurately mark the pulley with degree marks so you can set the timing to 4 degrees BTDC.

 

The Ford Shop notes give a way of using a vacuum gauge to check the action of the mechanical advance and vacuum brake.

 

 

[Ken/Alabama]

I can strobe and setup your distributor if needed. 

[larry butcher]

Years back I reset the dist .for  my '38 LZ conv. coupe. I also installed new points. In 2012 I did the same thing on my '48 LC. I used the

method that Jake Fleming wrote about in "Tech Tips" Vol.27 #5  ,Sept/Oct 1994.  He explains the whole thing and shows how to make

a degree disk, with a home made metal indicator. This method you also use a VOM  . I found it easier to use the non-ditgital . Both cars

start easy and run good. Try and get a back issue of"TWOZ" and do it yourself . Larry 

[Beltfed]

That tech tip is the one I used to set my points up.  I have sent the distributer to Ken for him to check, adjust, and repair if necessary.  I have ask him to report his findings to me to see how close I came.

[Beltfed]

I have received the distributor back from Ken in "Roll Tide" country.  He says the setup was only only off by three degrees on the points and the synchronization was only off two degrees.  Good enough to run.  So for those of us that need to set the points and get to a car show, the procedure in the back issue of TWOZ does work.  Thanks Ken.

[Oliver Lincoln]

On 12/17/2016 at 7:46 PM, larry butcher said:

Jake Fleming wrote about in "Tech Tips" Vol.27 #5  ,Sept/Oct 1994

Hi Larry,

 

where can i find these Tech Tips?

 

Thanks, Oliver

[38ShortopConv.]

LZ. V12 ignition timing is slightly complex  as the engine has an uneven pulse between the left and right bank.
The right bank leads by 7- 1/2 degrees and the left bank lags by 7-1/2 degrees, a pull me / push you  pulse to compensate for the 75 degree angle of the block. Block should be 60 degrees or 90".
This is why Jack Fleming wrote in "Tech. Tips" Vol. 27 # 5 Sept/Oct. 1994 in TWOTZ  that   the Ign.  timing of No. 4 cyl. [right bank] should be  22-1/2 degrees after No. 1 cyl.[ left bank] and the firing of next  cyl. No 9 [ left bank]  should be  37-1/2 degrees  after No. 4 cyl.  and so on. It makes an interesting read. 

For best results the distributor timing should be set on a workshop Stroboscope  or small bench degree disk by an experienced  operator.

This method sets  ignition  timing and   scycronises  the left and right banks together  perfectly.
But its fun trying it yourself!  

Edited May 31, 2019 by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

[Oliver Lincoln]

Thank you,

I am not trying mysel for fun but i am afraid, noone here in germany would be able to do it.

The engine is currently running but i just wanted to check the timing once if correct. I have noticed it is running quite rough, never as smooth as i saw in some youtube videos.

Do i have to adjust the breaker points also when the distributor is out of the car?
I am not able to watch there to check them in the car.

 

The pre owner or his mecanic have done a few things wrong earlier, so i do not trust their setup. (e.g. they used spark plags with a cone and external 12V ignition coils)

These "tech tips" are availlable on paper only? No source in the net?

[19tom40]

You might try contacting the Denmark Chapter of the Early Ford V-8 Club to see if someone has a timing fixture to time your distributor or knows a business that could time your distributor. There is no club in Germany and Denmark is the closet European country the I could find with a club. Here is the contact information:

 

Rie Kamp  

Tlf: +45 2334 3561

Email:multikamp@webspeed.dk

[Oliver Lincoln]

Many thanks, Tom!

[19tom40]

You are welcome, let me know how you make out.

[Oliver Lincoln]

First success: I disasembled the distributor from the car and checked the timing as described in the service manual with two metal rulers.
First i found that the breaker points are a bit burnt, then the timing was much too late. i could see it at the manual timing screw.

Sync was ok. For now it runs much smoother but i ordered new contacts anyway.

I found a pertronix kit for the Lincoln V12 but it runs with 12V only. I dont want to convert the whole car to 12V because everything goes fine and i have a quite new 6V alternator from Powergen.

Does anyone know, if there is a 6V Kit availlable? (I know there arte 6V to 12V converters but in my opinion its too risky)

 

Oliver

[certjeff1]

Just checked their most recent catalog and no they do not offer that setup in 6v.

[38ShortopConv.]

I think those  Pertronix 12volt catalog kits for Lincoln Zephyrs is for modern day 2000 Lincoln Zephyrs [new Ford Motor Company built Lincoln cars]  completely different, wont fit our 1930-40 Lincoln Zephyrs.
I  have just finished  building a 12 volt  electronic ignition system  for our V-12 LZs using small Hall Effect sensors,  on test bench now, see how it turns out!
Roy

Edited June 23, 2019 by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

They advertise 6V Pertronix units, but I think they're just the 12V units that kinda, sorta work on 6V. I would get the car running using points and condenser before trying out electronic ignitions and significant deviations from stock spec. That way when you're troubleshooting, the manual and the standard practices will be useful. As soon as you start modifying things, when it breaks you have a lot of other things to consider and sort out. Besides, on a 6V car like a Lincoln, you're not going to see much of an improvement from an electronic ignition simply because there's a finite amount of juice available to fire the spark. Electronic ignitions can introduce problems that you wouldn't have with points and condenser.

 

Disclaimer: I'm a fan of Pertronix units in my 12V cars but I would never put one in a 6V car.

[Oliver Lincoln]

Thank you guys for your feedback.

My intend for an eletronic system was the difficulty to adjust and replace the contacts.

Its almost impossible to check them inside the car, and still not sure if its really correct.

 So it seems to be a choice: 12V and electronic ignition or 6V and stock contacts.

 

Ok, for the moment i keep it at 6V and order some new contacts.

 

Oliver

 

[19tom40]

The points typically last 15,000 miles. Average mileage in the United States for collector cars is around 3,000 miles. That includes the warmer states where the cars are driven all year and the northern states with climates like Germany, where the cars are store for 5 or 6 months a year.

 

I live in an northern state and average about 1,000 mile a year on my cars, so theoretically my points should last bout 15 years. I do check the dwell every spring along with point resistance. The points in my Lincoln were installed 5,000 mile ago and the dwell is still where it was set when they were installed and so is the timing.

[Oliver Lincoln]

Ok tom, you are absolutely right, i probably will change them every 10 years 🙂

Thank you

 

Oliver