Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 4 hours ago, hchris said: I don't understand where this hole is ? And yes we are a little confused at your references of psi and vacuum, it would be easier if you just tell us the vacuum numbers. Also I am curious as to where you have the guage hooked up. the vacuum port on the carbuerattor intake where the vacuum tank is connected. I am not sure what you mean by the vacuum numbers. The gauge never stopes moving it moves from the max to the min rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 3 hours ago, 30dodge35 said: Some of new gages read both, inch of hug vacumn or psi, centered on 0 yes that is the gauge I have it measures vacuum and pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: It sounds to me, a rank greenhorn on this technique, that it is gaining and losing vacuum in a pulsing fashion. The 1 psi pressure sounds like a needle overrun coz of the speed of movement. I think there is something in the document about it, though perhaps with a lesser range of needle movement. That is correct that is precisely what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 when I blip the throttle tha vacuum goes down to almost 0 in of hg when it goes back to idle if contuines to fluctuate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 12 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said: Matt, first of all the engine will not run at 0 vacuum. The engine is nothing but an air pump. It pulls air in, adds gas to it and spark and pushes it out. Where do you have the gauge hooked up? Is the connection tight, no leaks? Is the engine running on all four cylinders? Who was the " local garage" that installed the cam gear? Tators? yes it was Tators. They told me they would "correct" the camshaft timing if I brought back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Matt, when the engine idles, a slow idle, what is the reading? IS it running on all four cylinders? Didn't you have one cylinder with very low compression? Is the vacuum connection tight? No leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 3 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said: Matt, when the engine idles, a slow idle, what is the reading? IS it running on all four cylinders? Didn't you have one cylinder with very low compression? Is the vacuum connection tight? No leaks. When idling the needle on the gauge fluctuates rapidly moving from the max of the gauge to the min. I believe all cylinders are firing properly however cylinder 1 has very little compression. I made multiple tests all were the same. I made the connection very tight and even using oil to reduce leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hchris Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said: I believe all cylinders are firing properly however cylinder 1 has very little compression. Alright, now we might be on to something. The thing of significance is the #1 low compression, the vac guage is never going to be steady if you have a large variation in any cylinder compressions, this would have been a tell tale pointer from the get go had you mentioned it in the beginning. To develop full power and smooth running you need to have minimal variation between all cylinder compression readings. So with that in mind how low is low, do you know what the compression pressure is on #1 cylinder ? Just off the cuff, an incorrectly set valve clearance (or leaking valve due to poor seating) will give you wild vacuum fluctuations, and low compression. So a question to be answered, were the valve clearances adjusted after the timing chain / gear episode ? 7 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said: I am not sure what you mean by the vacuum numbers The numbers on the guage face, I was trying to establish what range the needle of the guage was moving to / from in vacuum reading not psi. So would I be right in assuming the guage is bouncing from one end of the scale to the other at steady idle rpm ? OK don't answer this I re read your earlier post. Edited December 28, 2016 by hchris add words (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 It does sound as you have multiple problems, compression being one of those. I know you talked about doing a valve job, don't know if that ever happened. I also remember you saying Tators has screwed up several other things and taken lots of your money. If my memory is correct they adjusted your valves and it ran worse when you got it back and that was about one day before the starter chain broke? You need to find someone that is reliable. Someone needs to start from the beginning and FIX, not just work on, each system on your car. I'm betting you still haven't cleaned the gas tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 when the engine runs it is a blue but mostly black smoke coming from the tail pipe and sometimes backfires but I beleive that is because if my faulty ignition switch.(it cuts out often.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 3 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said: It does sound as you have multiple problems, compression being one of those. I know you talked about doing a valve job, don't know if that ever happened. I also remember you saying Tators has screwed up several other things and taken lots of your money. If my memory is correct they adjusted your valves and it ran worse when you got it back and that was about one day before the starter chain broke? You need to find someone that is reliable. Someone needs to start from the beginning and FIX, not just work on, each system on your car. I'm betting you still haven't cleaned the gas tank? the gas tank is the only thing that works it was relined for $350 by another shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Mpgp1999 said: when the engine runs it is a blue but mostly black smoke coming from the tail pipe and sometimes backfires but I beleive that is because if my faulty ignition switch.(it cuts out often.) Are you sure the ignition switch is cutting out? it might be the engine is barely running and just stops. Backfiring can have a number of causes, including stuck valves and incorrect timing. Black smoke = unburnt fuel = Running very rich. It sounds to me like the order of proceedings is to make sure of all tuning first: 1st, valve clearances. 2nd valve timing followed by compression test. 3rd, depending on satisfactory compression test results, ignition timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 yes it is the ignition because when I turn the key the amp gauge doesn't always turn on and often turns back off before I even turn the engine over. The engine will only run on "choke" out a few clicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 It might just be poor connections. If the connectors are zinc plated brass, as many were, and they are on steel bolts with steel nuts, the zinc corrodes first and zinc oxide is a poor conductor. The brass is lowest in the galvanic series in this mix and zinc is at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Matthew, I checked out your profile. Your car looks very nice! One to be proud of, for sure. Bear in mind that, with the ignition on but the engine not running, the ammeter will only show a discharge if the points happen to be closed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 On 12/28/2016 at 11:51 AM, Mpgp1999 said: when the engine runs it is a blue but mostly black smoke coming from the tail pipe and sometimes backfires but I beleive that is because if my faulty ignition switch.(it cuts out often.) Better be careful with that or, sooner or later (probably sooner), you're going to experience the BIG BANG that will lay our the muffler like a flayed fish........ It happened to me when I was working on getting the ignition timing where I wanted it.......so yeah....... By the way.......love your profile picture. Very nice......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 After removing the head we (tators) found out that the valve seat on valve number one was nonexistent and therefore the valve was not seating. When that is fixed he will retime the crankshaft and valves and ignition. Then I will have a running car. Hopefully before my February Meet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 All the other valves have seats the seat I'm looking for is in the 1.885 range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hchris Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said: found out that the valve seat on valve number one was nonexistent and therefore the valve was not seating Bingo, just what the vac guage behaviour was displaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I don't think the inventor of the vacuum gauge ever had planned of a valve seat disappearing! So you couldn't tell it was running on 3 cylinders? Had to hiss like crazy. I hope you get this thing fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30dodge35 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 We had the same problem with Bill 16, it was the valve not seating, but it was running on 3 cylinder for a while, ran a little rough, 0 compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Any evidence of why the seat "disappeared"? Normal recession or burnt valve or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30dodge35 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Well, now Matt you are track to getting this fixed, 1 problem at a time, compression then timing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 Ok now I'm looking for a valve seat maybe a machine shop can help Also the head is warped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Find a couple or more engine reconditioning shops and pick their brains. They will have or make valve seats and fit them. They should be hardened of course to prevent future problems with recession. Warped head sounds like an old overheating injury? While you are in there, measure the bore for taper etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 We use Carquest for those kinds of things. Our nearest Carquest has an in house machine shop where they can handle most of the stuff we throw at them. Installing a seat and grinding the head are pieces of cake. Depending on the condition of the other seats it might be wise to do them all and be done with it....... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 cahartley wrote: "grinding the head (is a) pieces of cake." I'm not a machinist, so I don't mean to sound like a smarty-pants, but this expert machinist told me it wasn't too easy to mill the head flat on my '22: http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=900629 The reason is that the whole head was warped, so it was rather difficult to determine what "flat" would really be. There was really nothing he could use as a reference in determining flatness. None of the head bolt holes could be used as a perpendicular reference because they were no longer parallel to each other. While you could just stick the head in the Bridgeport mill willy-nilly and grind it flat, then the combustion chambers wouldn't all have the same volume. He said milling jobs like that always require planning and strategy. Best to CC the combustion chambers afterward and mill any small ones out to the correct volume, although I realize this may not be strictly necessary on such a low-compression engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 How badly warped is it? If we're talking about taking 10 or 20 thousandths off, I can't imagine that it would be too difficult or that you would need to worry about chamber volume variations (we're only taking about 4 to 1 compression here). You might post a photo or two so we can see if it appears to have already been ground down too much. Since these low compression engines never relied on lead in gasoline for valve seat lubrication, would valve seat recession be expected? Perhaps someone along the way screwed up doing a valve job. But it should not be a huge deal to machine for a valve insert. Unless it has to be hardened it would be a simple matter to machine up whatever size insert is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Speaking of head.......I wasn't using mine in my above post....... Installing a seat in the BLOCK is kind of a big deal. Finding someone with a portable tool to cut the block might not be so easy....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 It appears that the head is warped in the middle area and looks to be about the same size as the head gasket itself so maybe I might be able to get away with not milling the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 I know that someone in the 80s overhauled the engine by themselves and like me they were not a mechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Yea I forgot we're talking about an insert in the block... That would make things a bit more difficult getting it set up. When you say the warp is 'about the same size as head gasket' do you mean the thickness of the HG as measured gap with a straight edge on the head? An HG is fairly thick (~ 0.040" ?) so it sounds like a significant warp. I wouldn't try and use it like that... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 For not being a mechanic you've done some pretty amazing things to your car....... Again, grinding the head is peanuts and any minor (or major as far as that goes) variations that would affect displacement are of no consequence in this engine. If that head isn't flat you'll blow a head gasket sooner or later........most likely sooner. I'd be surprised if it cost more than $75 to have the head ground straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 On 29 Dec 2016 at 4:39 AM, Spinneyhill said: It might just be poor connections. If the connectors are zinc plated brass, as many were, and they are on steel bolts with steel nuts, the zinc corrodes first and zinc oxide is a poor conductor. The brass is lowest in the galvanic series in this mix and zinc is at the top. Very likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 Found some seats and their on the way 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 still waiting for the valve seats in the mail. My car will be ready for my Febuary DB meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Any variation from a perfectly flat surface of the head should be rectified by skimming. It's not worth taking the risk of a blown head gasket given the price they sell for these days and you would wish you had done the job in the first place. While on the subject, have the engineer also check the block for flat and have this skimmed if not perfect. I would also advise fitting new head studs for good measure. Dodge Brothers would not have settled for anything less. Presumably the engine will need to come out to fit the valve seat? If so when you get the chance, upturn the block and clean out as much silt as you can find. You may well be surprised at the quantity of dirt that falls out; do this with the head also. Carefully check the block and head for cracks. Take the opportunity to replace the small core plug; it may not leak but could well be rotten. Mine had been filled with glazing putty which while watertight was not correct. I would suggest you use an internal micrometer to check for oval and taper of the bores and if not within limits have the block rebored and fit new oversize pistons. Ray. Edited January 17, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 So..........how's it going with the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 Currently heading to the machine shop to have the head and block milled and the new seat put in and milled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpgp1999 Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Update new valve seat in head is not flat ( shaved 14 thousands) oil leak in transmission rear stopped original brake light installed and working origional 1926 NY plates on and installed engine back in car oil pump housing broken ( replacement found) thanks to Tom Turner clock installed brake switch repaired as of yesterday (march 6) the car turned 91 Also heat shield found and installed and original tires chains found and fitted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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