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On 12/7/2016 at 4:41 PM, v.milke said:

If I recall the story correctly, but you can surely elaborate, the guy that got the plane from your grandfather in the trade crashed it that same day or within a few days... luckily your Grandfather's car is still around and as you can see it is quite a car!

 

 

1926 Elcar 8-81 Landau Roadster, 1, Dave Sanders.JPG

1926 Elcar Landau Roadster, old pic (3).jpg

Victor,

   What a fantastic effort you have done making an inventory of all the Elcars known to you and organizing all of these photographs! Here are 2 more:

  • There is one I found for sale on ebay November, 2006(19_ _ 6-cyl. touring car, Condition 6, in Minot, ND, radiator emblem says "Elkhart Carriage & Motor Com." above rectangular "ELCAR" motif). I noticed the hood had backward-slash louvers. Only 2 illustrations in the coachbuilt.com site match this hood design, the Elcar "Sportster", introduced in May, 1918. The ND car photos were from hotrodgarage.net, the seller.
  • I saw in an ad for the Morris Blomgren Estate farm auction on 9/9/10("1918 Elcar Model D4 ser# 15645 engine", _-cyl. touring car, Condition 5, in Siren, WI). Vertical hood louvers. I sent info for both to the Elcar Museum and still have printouts of the ads. 

 

   While the 2 photos above are of very similar cars, they seem to be different models, model years & colors. The hood ornaments and headlights vary, too. By the way, I saw an Elcar Knight Rook radiator mascot for sale on ebay today for $849. The photo of this white car is one I have the original of. I sent a copy to the museum owner about 2010, also. It is a 1954 photo Glenn got from someone in Paris, Kentucky, maybe a car my grandpa was thinking of buying. On the back of the picture it says it's a 1927 Model 8-90 Elcar, Car Serial# A6S30, Engine Serial# 19207. No idea who the owners were.

   I never heard about the plane crash from my grand-dad, but he mentioned the plane sometimes and how well it flew. There are some stories about it crashing the day after the car and the aircraft were traded, but I don't know the details, except it was a Travel Air(Lloyd Stearman, Walter Beech and Clyde Cessna built their first one 45 miles away in Wichita during 1924). ----Jeff

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)
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>Re: the 140 HP Model 140 Elcar some of us were discussing before, I was looking at The Standard Catalog, and there may have only 3 built. I don't think that car shows around the country are going to be overwhelmed with them. The 140 HP Model 130s....I have no idea how many were made. Maybe the Elcar-Pratt book will say (I ordered one). Total Elcar production, 1930-1931, was 1,011, the Mod. 130 being one of 7 available those years. 

 

>The '28 Elcar Sedan in Indiana, with the straight-eight Lycoming motor, that John Mereness brought up sold for $7,085 today. Photos on Victor's Post# 56 above.

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On 7/12/2016 at 10:56 PM, jeff_a said:

...

 

   While the 2 photos above are of very similar cars, they seem to be different models, model years & colors. The hood ornaments and headlights vary, too. By the way, I saw an Elcar Knight Rook radiator mascot for sale on ebay today for $849. The photo of this white car is one I have the original of. I sent a copy to the museum owner about 2010, also. It is a 1954 photo Glenn got from someone in Paris, Kentucky, maybe a car my grandpa was thinking of buying. On the back of the picture it says it's a 1927 Model 8-90 Elcar, Car Serial# A6S30, Engine Serial# 19207. No idea who the owners were.

   I never heard about the plane crash from my grand-dad, but he mentioned the plane sometimes and how well it flew. There are some stories about it crashing the day after the car and the aircraft were traded, but I don't know the details, except it was a Travel Air(Lloyd Stearman, Walter Beech and Clyde Cessna built their first one 45 miles away in Wichita during 1924). ----Jeff

 

Jeff: Sorry for my late response but I was trying to check on my info. Yes, you are right and the white and blue cars are different... I stand corrected! The blue car, your grandfather's, had incorrect headlights in the old picture and also on the color pics showing it two tone blue, and you can see on the restored pics, now black and silver, it does have now the correct headlights and emblem.... or could it be i am still confused and it is the white car now restored? Mmmmmmm.... 

 

Anybody interested in the marque should get the book mentioned: "Elcar and Pratt Automobiles, The complete history" by William S. Locke.

 

About these two cars, Bill Locke's book mentions the following stories: 

 

The two tone blue car... your grandfather's...

"Serial no. 39511

Elcar 8-81 - 1926 

Glenn Brown of Hutchinson, Kansas, traded his airplane for this Landau Roadster when it was almost new and kept it for 60 years. The car's original owner wrecked the plane the day of the trade. He was not seriously hurt but was unhappy about having traded his car. It is currently on display in the collection of the Reno County Historical Society in Hutchinson".

 

About the white one, using your numbers as stated behind the pic, the books says: 

"Serial no. A6S30

Elcar 8-90 - 1927

One of the cars that remained unsold at the Cutter Agency after World War II. This Landau was used to pay an agency debt and then was bought by the author in 1950 with 13,000 total miles registered."

 

So, again, my apologies but there are two different cars and I am confused now as to which is which... I will try to check with Bill Locke... he will surely be able to solve my doubts.

 

victor

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/7/2016 at 6:05 PM, v.milke said:

No more Elcar survivors that I may know about...

Victor,

There is a youtube video of a bright red restored 7-Pass. Phaeton with wood wheels and dual sidemounts. Videos taken in 2015 and 2016 {Search "233.1  1930 Elcar Sedan"}. I think it may be a Model 75 Elcar with a Lycoming Six. Not much text, probably foreign(a sign in the back says "Museo Anthropologia"). Another video says it's the only one in Europe. Both produced by artsvalua.com.

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There was a late twenties Elcar coupe or cabriolet in Chattanooga, TN in the early 60's.  It had the RR style radiator shell. I used to have photos but can't find them now. Any idea where it is now?

 

Don

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It would appear the red phaeton is in Barcelona, Spain, as Artsvalua is a spanish site, and the sign "museo de antropología" is in Spanish: Anthropology museum. 

 

Nice car and the only "newer" Elcar I have "seen" other than the one at the Bjern Auto Museum.

1930 Elcar 75 A, Touring, rojo, España, 2.jpg

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I thought you'd like that Elcar in Spain. Are you saying you'd walk across the street to look at it, if it were in your town? Thank you for tracking down the country it's in. Was someone being inventive with the hubcaps with the big "E" on them -- or did Elcar use some like that?

 

I got a copy of William Locke's book on Elcar and Pratt and el coche rojo does not seem to be in it. Like many other distinctively different American makes which weren't "cars for the masses"(Gardner, Peerless, Marmon, Rickenbacker, Cole, Jordan), it would be fun to take this Elcar to a car show with the radiator badge obscured and see what peoples guesses were re: brand.

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)
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The car sold half a year ago and the dollar translation is $31,827, it says on the auction link. My reading of it has it in the Canary Islands when sold, but who knows where it is now? I have read of a lot of antique car activity in the Canary Islands and Tenerife before. I see on some of your photos that the blue 1929 Model 75 Sedan has the same hubcaps with the big "E"...and the same hood sides...as the red 1930.

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The January 2017 Hemmings Classic Car has a 6-page article about Elcar automobiles(also Pratt-Elkart and Pratt) with 18 photos. The excellent story by columnist Pat Foster mentioned that the high point in sales was 1919 with 4,000 cars, and that the Model 130 with 130-inch wheelbase, 4-speed transmission & 140 horsepower engine came out in 1930.

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On 12/7/2016 at 4:52 AM, K8096 said:

The 322 CI SOHC Stutz of 1929-1933 was advertised at 113 hp.   I think it was a little more that that though.    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?   I know guys who rebuild Stutz engines now who up the compression ratio to 7:1 and get a lot more hp out of them, and that's with stock carburation.  That probably includes boring it .0030 over too.            

It's interesting to discuss the horsepower question of the cars back then. I wasn't around and haven't owned an Elcar so don't know the veracity of the h.p. claims. The one my grandfather owned had a Lycoming motor. There were three Continentals at the time that were similar, a 12K , 13K, and 14K, all 322 cu. in. eights.

 

  • The 14 1930 Jordan Model Zs built had 114 hp using the 12K engine, according to "Z" Roadster owner Jim Stecker.
  • Du Pont is listed in The Standard Catalog as having 125 hp 1929-1932 in their Model G with the 12K engine.
  • Elcar Models 130 and 140......140 hp with the 12K engine was claimed for 1930 and 1931. We all would put more credence in this if, say, some Model 130s were still around.* Elcar did have some racing experience, fielding cars in both the 1926 and 1927 Indy 500, according to the Elcar and Pratt book. The Continental 12K not being in production...they used a Miller engine.
  • The high-end model for Peerless in 1929 was the 8-125, using the 12K engine with 114 hp.
  • Peerless stated 115 hp(Master 8) and 120 hp(custom 8), using the 13K engine in 1930-1932.
  • Graham-Paige had their Model 827, 835, and 837 listed as 120 hp cars in 1929-1930 with the 14K engine. I had no idea that you could get a Le Baron Town Car with the Continental 322 for $4,180 from them, or that someone took an 835 out on the track at Brooklands and set a Class B endurance record for 200 miles, 77.77 mph, in a sedan(complete w/ sidemounts, bumpers, headlights), until I looked at The Graham Legacy by Michael Keller. Keller says the Graham-Paige had one of the larger powerplants in 1928-1929, but that it was exceeded by:

          a) Marmon "E-75" 339.7 cu. in.

          b  )Cadillac 341

          c) Lincoln 384

          d) Studebaker "Commander" 384

          e) Packard "4-43" 384.8

           f) Stearns-Knight 385

           g) Pierce-Arrow "36" 414.7

           h) Cunningham 441.7

           i) Rolls-Royce of America "PI" 468

           j) Locomobile "90" 371.5, "48" 524

          k) McFarlan 572.5

 

 

The advertised horsepower for the Continental 12K, 13K, and 14K engines was 114 to 140 in various applications. Today I found a picture of one of 'em advertising 140, and thought I would add it.spaceout.gif I believe the Du Ponts used the Continental 12K engine.

 

I was able to post a photo of an ad for a 1930 Du Pont Model G, and the text "Du Pont Victoria Cabriolet -- Straight Eight Motor -- 140 Horse Power" 

 

Image result for 1930 duPont cabriolet ad

 

 

spaceout.gifspaceout.gif

* It would be interesting to know what model that 1930 Elcar in Jutland, Denmark is, at the Gjern Auto Museum.

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)
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Jeff,  all advertised HP numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.  Even the mighty Model J was said to really be around 250 and not 275 (which was still 100 more than everybody else).   The only thing I can say about DuPont is that they warmed their engines over so maybe they were getting a bit more than someone else using a Continental.

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