maok

'28 Chrysler M Engine re-build

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I got intimate with it today and some signs of quality issue have arisen....:(

 

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You can see a small hole in the 1st pic and some babbit material in the oil hole for the big end of #6 rod.

 

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The biggest issue is the crank end gap/float. Bottom right hand corner is 0.0025", top left hand corner is 0.0015", and the other two are less than 0.0015". And the crank when spun seems to be binding, mostly likely because of this....:(

I am going have another look at it tomorrow, but I dont have my hopes up.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by maok
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This block and the block that came out of the car are slightly different. Can you spot the difference?

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Luckily, slight grinding of the middle piece below will allow my alternator bracket to work.

 

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More of the Dulux build. Date code on the cylinder head that came off the engine from the car. 3/06/28

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What do you guys generally set the crank end play at? 

The bloke who did the babbitt bearings and crank grind has f'ed it up. I am at 0.002" - 0.0025 at the moment by sanding the last bearing  edge/face with 1200 grit wet&dry sand paper, and I still seem to have some binding. 

Initially when I was checking it, the crank barely turned freely one revolution, now I it will turn freely about 1 1/2 revs.

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An average is .003" to .007" looking at many makes of engines back to 1936.

You might have more of an issue than the end thrust if you already have .002"+ end play as some car engines have that spec or less rear main end play.....the 1936 Cadillac

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Thanks mate, I was told by the machinist that 0.002" was about right for these very early engines, so much tighter than modern engines as you have suggested. I suspect the crank thrust area (on #6) or the bearing thrust face (end bearing) has not been machined well.

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Ahh that’s a real bigger for you nothing worse than having to tidy up a professional stuff up. Don’t have lot of advice on how to fix but I know I have been told to keep sandpaper away from white metal bearings as the sand can get imbedded in the surface, so maybe be careful with the sandpaper. My commiserations to you hopefully you can get it sorted satisfactory 😟

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Posted (edited)

Anyone know what this hole is designed for? The old engine was gummed up with oil and grease.

InkedIMAG1509_LI.jpg.916ef9b85387b3f6fb5cc058a0458cde.jpgIMAG1510.jpg.67b925c6ee82c0a425227b025a703a1e.jpg

 

This is the reason why you check everything before installing.

But it was only 4 of the rods...🙄                           The old rod big end oil hole, much small than the new one.

IMAG1419.jpg.d986c3a5af53b09c36cef5cb1e9ff6ab.jpgIMAG1493.jpg.86a4c2f8492677f7bed10810a43eef1b.jpgIMAG1494.jpg.de72dc6d0183b95c3f2a7b22d67d766f.jpg

What is the best orientation of the small end of the rods? Four options I guess, all bolts facing to the front, all bolts facing to the rear, bolts alternating from 1 to 6  or bolts alternating with like cylinders, ie 1&6 etc.

IMAG1491.jpg.a692e0b527878df93e57b6dcadbd911f.jpgIMAG1492.jpg.b56134f359baa17335949109269a055b.jpg

Edited by maok
added pic (see edit history)

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7 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

I am getting "access denied" to all the images.

Fingers crossed, try again Spinney.

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Maok,

 You paid a lot of money to have your motor done, I would take it back to the machine shop and ask them to sort out the problems you have found. Any attempt you make to correct the faults you have found, will make it difficult to argue your case. The machine shop will turn around and say YOU buggered it up.

 That small hole in your picture I think is for a locating pin/bolt or dowel for holding the distibutor in place ??

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Thanks Viv W, Im finding issues mainly with the bloke who did the babbitt bearings and line bore, who is at least 3 hour drive away.

 

The machinist has done an excellent job so far.

 

My manual has no reference to that hole. It seems to vent the valve cage area, its directly behind the inlet/exhaust manifold, no way of accessing it without removing the manifold.

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Posted (edited)

I wondered if a bolt or something went in there (is it threaded?) to hold the manifold heat valve flap return spring.

 

Is there a picture of the engine in the instruction book? You might see the piston pin bolts there. I would expect them all to be in the same direction.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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Piston pin bolts tend to be all the same side and I believe it’s to do with the way the engine “throws”  or that’s what a old bloke told me here. Unfortunately  I can’t remember which way round it is but I will have a look through some  of my literature. I think that hole you referring to could just be a drain for any excess oil that works it way up to the the dissy or moisture working it way down, my 65 has the same hole 

A11398DB-F56E-4283-A727-A95BC237005D.jpeg

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So I just had a look at my 29 Chrysler 65 manual and it had this cross section of the engine shows pretty clear which way the rod should face this also means that the oil holes in the big ends lined up with the cam this matches what my Motors Auto repair Manual that covers from 35 to 46 says and it makes sense that the cam gets plenty of oil. Hopefully that helps 

Cheers Ben

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Posted (edited)

Maybe I should read my manual more....🙄  Thanks Ben for your time and effort.

 

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It looks like I am working on an earlier engine design, oil filler tube is the same from my manual but Ben's pic is a 1929 65 model that is more like the one that was in my car. The oil filler tube has been relocated back for accommodate a long generator to be run off the fan belt.

852936413_sideview.thumb.jpg.2a75caeaaa13c80974fbff327fdfad83.jpg

Edited by maok
additional info (see edit history)

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3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I wondered if a bolt or something went in there (is it threaded?) to hold the manifold heat valve flap return spring.

 

Is there a picture of the engine in the instruction book? You might see the piston pin bolts there. I would expect them all to be in the same direction.

 

No, its not threaded. Just a simple 1/8" hole with no apparent meaning...lol

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Posted (edited)

I did a lot of fun stuff today. Clean, clean clean!!!!  

 

I am not happy with the state of the rod bolts and nuts from both engines, do you blokes know if any of the later 1934 onwards flat heads use the same rod bolts and nuts? These have a side cut to the head of the bolt with hole for a split pin at the end, and have castle nuts. Or where I can order these from?

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When I was pulling this engine apart over two years ago I mentioned that the timing case was modified and the timing chain was not around the generator gear because an altenator (or a later model generator) was attached to the left side of the engine and ran off the fan belt, like later models in the Chrysler family. Here is a comparison of the timing chain and gears.

Left is the original that would also go around the generator gear, the right just goes around the crank gear. Gear on the right bolts up  with 3 bolts.

IMAG1533.jpg.94717aa7446078be4a690e2480452044.jpg657829827_timingdiagram.thumb.jpg.1cb5456e3c1e27bc21af60d9278420d0.jpg

 

The two camshaft gears on top of each other, you can see how they are a different gear set (the top one is a smaller diameter) with a different pitch to the tooth.

IMAG1524.jpg.6d8f724a8a5649211befccc50140ac17.jpg

 


I think I have a decision to make.

Edited by maok
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I have seen timing gears with razor sharp points because they were a different pitch to the chain. The filings must have been grinding away all through the engine for years!

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2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I have seen timing gears with razor sharp points because they were a different pitch to the chain. The filings must have been grinding away all through the engine for years!

 

Both look to be in good serviceable condition.

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Hi moak, Sorry to hear you're having troubles with the engine, that hole in the side is nothing to worry about it's only a vent hole, although it's not numbered you can see it in the section drawing of the engine exactly where yours is.

Are you going to free wheel the generator?  looks like that motor had a newer style Cam shaft installed if it has the 3 holes to bolt onto the shaft as well as the sprocket hub screw, just like on my 65 model.

Mystery solved, that's why the generator wasn't connected. Good luck it the rest of the rebuild

section.jpg

timing chain.jpg

IMG_2682_JPG_65fb5206631596d27f8608f44e01e524.jpg

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Thanks mate for confirming that the timing gear is from a series 65. Do you know if this is the same as the later Chrysler family flat heads ie. 201, 218, 230 ci engines?

 

What I am thinking is if I go for this timing gear then I will just block off the generator hole and run the alternator.

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On 12/28/2018 at 4:03 AM, maok said:

I got intimate with it today and some signs of quality issue have arisen....:(

 

IMAG1425.thumb.jpg.bf8454a2fee35bbf35b5efd185674f64.jpgIMAG1419.thumb.jpg.3cc1f6448a23099219d3eb10d8ca2bc6.jpg

You can see a small hole in the 1st pic and some babbit material in the oil hole for the big end of #6 rod.

 

IMAG1421.thumb.jpg.406ba562f4f7dc1a255f9a576d912df3.jpgIMAG1422.thumb.jpg.438b286e5a9c89f1bbdf6f9ed3d24c30.jpg

 

The biggest issue is the crank end gap/float. Bottom right hand corner is 0.0025", top left hand corner is 0.0015", and the other two are less than 0.0015". And the crank when spun seems to be binding, mostly likely because of this....:(

I am going have another look at it tomorrow, but I dont have my hopes up.

 

 

 

 

 

In the first picture, the middle hole with the babbitt, is that pluging off a squirt hole, or is the web of the rod drilled for oiling the wrist pin? If it is a squirt hole, I have never seen a squirt hole, connected to a circle groove, for constant oiling.

 

Herm.

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On 12/30/2018 at 8:18 PM, maok said:

What do you guys generally set the crank end play at? 

The bloke who did the babbitt bearings and crank grind has f'ed it up. I am at 0.002" - 0.0025 at the moment by sanding the last bearing  edge/face with 1200 grit wet&dry sand paper, and I still seem to have some binding. 

Initially when I was checking it, the crank barely turned freely one revolution, now I it will turn freely about 1 1/2 revs.

Thrust should be, not under .003, and not over .004. We shoot for .003 to .003-50.

 

You shouldn't have had to use sand paper. Make sure you scrub the bearings when done, with warm soapy water. Your bearings should have been already done, with a smooth, reflective surface, for good oil wedge.

 

Herm.

Buick Bearings, 1930 003.jpg

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1927 Studabaker 6 017.jpg

1927 Studabaker 6 018.jpg

1927 Studabaker 6 019.jpg

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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 2:00 AM, maok said:

Anyone know what this hole is designed for? The old engine was gummed up with oil and grease.

InkedIMAG1509_LI.jpg.916ef9b85387b3f6fb5cc058a0458cde.jpgIMAG1510.jpg.67b925c6ee82c0a425227b025a703a1e.jpg

 

This is the reason why you check everything before installing.

But it was only 4 of the rods...🙄                           The old rod big end oil hole, much small than the new one.

IMAG1419.jpg.d986c3a5af53b09c36cef5cb1e9ff6ab.jpgIMAG1493.jpg.86a4c2f8492677f7bed10810a43eef1b.jpgIMAG1494.jpg.de72dc6d0183b95c3f2a7b22d67d766f.jpg

What is the best orientation of the small end of the rods? Four options I guess, all bolts facing to the front, all bolts facing to the rear, bolts alternating from 1 to 6  or bolts alternating with like cylinders, ie 1&6 etc.

IMAG1491.jpg.a692e0b527878df93e57b6dcadbd911f.jpgIMAG1492.jpg.b56134f359baa17335949109269a055b.jpg

 

 

Those squirt holes should be small. Many rebabbitters drill bigger holes, because they are special sizes, and break easy!

 

Herm

1927 Studabaker 6 008.jpg

Edited by herm111 (see edit history)

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