maok Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Hi all, this will be my 1st flat head engine re-build so any input, advice, suggestions, jokes, sarcasm will be welcomed. But first of all, I would like to give a big shout out to a top bloke, Sasha39 (Alex). He supplied the engine at a very good pay rate and bolted down to a pallet to make life very easy. I am sure he will be very interested in what this engine is like inside. So, thousand THANK YOU's to Alex. Part one: The tear down. Externally looks to be like any engine that has been sitting around for who knows how long. Lots of surface rust, totally expected but looks to be superficial. It was 'stuck' but freed up relatively easily after removing the head and pouring some kero down the cylinders and valves. Bonus! A copper gasket in one piece, I reckon I can re-use it. Apparently the previous owner who had it running could not work out why the generator was not producing electrons. Mystery solved. Timing chain to the cam and crank gear only. That is an assumption so far, I wont know for sure until I pull the front timing case off. Can you guess the odd one out. It took at least 3 hours to remove most of the head studs, still 3 that are a bit 'character building'. I feel good that I am better that Meatloaf...:) Any suggestions on best method to remove these studs without breaking or cutting then drilling them out? We are going to get some warm temperatures (+35c) in the next few days, so I might leave them out to get a sun tan. It looks to be about 0.020" over. The bores look to be 'okay' may get away with a light hone. Hopefully the Mopar gods will be kind to me. Edited November 30, 2016 by maok spelling error (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 G'day there Maok, Great to see that you have made a start on the engine and that it looks like it might be a somewhat easy rebuild for you, please keep us updated on your progress and good luck with your project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Sure will mate. I am sure there will be some surprises along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 That generator explains that cut out section in the timing case cover, looks like they had another external generator mounted on the other side and run it by the fan belt and they had to shave off some of the timing case so the belt could move more freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Mate, I just went outside to have another look, you are 100% correct. I never noticed it yesterday when I was getting intimate with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Head bolts: patience is your best friend. Cutting is extreme last resort. Best penetrating oil for the head studs = 50-50 acetone and ATF. Apply each day for a week. Try to turn. Tighten first then undo. You can also tap them with a hammer on the end; sometimes the shock will help (not too hard!). Take care with long spanners coz you can easily screw the bolt off, leaving the bottom in the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 49 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: Tighten first then undo. You can also tap them with a hammer on the end; sometimes the shock will help (not too hard!). Take care with long spanners coz you can easily screw the bolt off, leaving the bottom in the hole. Exactly how I got the others out. The reason why I used the large adjustable spanners (we call them a 'shifter' here in OZ) with my dodgy 2' extension bar is because of their depth. More surface area to hold the nut than a usual spanner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Years ago I knew an old mechanic who told me about an International truck engine he overhauled during WW2. At the time new cars and trucks were not available and even parts were in short supply. This particular truck had the head removed and left outside open to the weather for more than a year. He honed the cylinders and put it together with new rings on the old pistons even though the cylinders were pitted with rust. He said it ran well but burned oil for the first 1000 miles or so then settled down and ran fine with no oil burning. A few years later he did a valve job, while the head was off he noticed the rust pits were filled with black carbon and polished smooth. The point is, some rust pitting is not a death sentence. If the bad areas are not big enough to snag the rings it will be ok. Think of a 2 stroke engine and the holes they have in the cylinders. Edited March 28, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 Totally agree. People often do re-builds like they are doing it for a F1 car. This will be a relatively low budget build, pending how the pistons, block, crank and rods check out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: Head bolts: patience is your best friend. Cutting is extreme last resort. Bloody Kiwi's, always jinxing us Aussie's. I hope I don't lose too many points at the car show...:) There goes the budget. I shouldn't whinge, 21 out of 22 ain't too bad. There is still plenty of shank on the stud to cut more thread. This is what Sasha39 was referring to on the timing case; Edited December 1, 2016 by maok added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Aaahhh, I see the problems. Spanner is too long. Not enough waiting for penetrating oil. Not enough patience. Sounds just like me on the job! They are probably only about Grade 2 studs in today's parlance, so it is easy to screw them off. 21 out of 22 is all right, perhaps we would call it a draw? A win would be all 22 out in one piece... Strange piece to chop off the timing case... a bush mechanic passed by there. Just had a wild thought... Set up your impact driver with the right size six sided socket on your locked nut and work the driver in reverse. I bought an adapter from driver to square drive (cheap) and a six sided socket for impact (less cheap) to do the really tight oil plugs on the front axle of Triceps the Tractor. Impact drivers are better than drills for this job because the impact is on the torque. After watching a builder using one while helping me with concrete boxing I went out and bought one too. Xclnt tool. Six sided socket better for really tight nuts or bolts coz more grip on hexagon. Jinx! Huh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: Not enough patience. Patience told me to hurry up. So I did. Yep, it does feel so good...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) I'll hunt around and see if I have any spare studs for you, good job! Edited December 1, 2016 by Sasha39 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 Thanks gents. Hopefully Mr goodluck will be helping out with the manifold studs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 2nd verse, same as the first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 Six months goes so fast in an engine tare down...:) Finally something to work under. Gearbox and clutch assembly off. The flywheel looks like it needs to come off with the crankshaft. Any one know if there is another way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 G'day Maok, Good to see your back on the job mate, nice work on the shed by the way, the easiest way is to take the crankshaft and flywheel out in one go, I'd pop the valves out turn it on its head and take the sump off pull the oil pump out and then take the crankshaft and flywheel out. good luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) Thanks for confirming that Sasha39. I was hoping to bolt it to an engine stand and then disassemble, but might be a bit tricky with the flywheel still attached. Edited May 31, 2017 by maok grammar (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 Removed all the valves, springs, collars, and locks today. One damaged (#6 Ex) valve guide...:( Used a conventional G clap style valve spring compressor with some success, but realised it was more efficient with a 9/16 open ended spanner to lever up the spring to remove the lock from the valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 A balancing act and sludge today. Even though I have had a V8 block on this engine stand, I just don't trust it with this flathead engine. It is so long with the back of the block extending out to cover the flywheel. Some sludge but looks okay so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 This is the reason why Sasha39 implied that you cant unbolt the flywheel and pull it off the crankshaft when in the block. I wonder if its still covered under warranty. Piston #6 & #3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 Pulled all the pistons today to find that all the pistons have this gap. There seems to be some sort of a spring set up to hold the piston pin in place. I couldn't get a good pic of it unfortunately. And where did the crankshaft seals go? Front and rear? Front; Rear; Actually, there is two strips that seems to be a seal, on the rear main cap - last pic. photothumb.db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Thanks for sharing all these photos this is almost as good as tearing down the engine myself and giving me a great idea of what I might find if I end up needing to do an engine for my car. Just a few thoughts on the photos/engine, I can't see the spring set up for retaining the piston pin but it looks to me it is very similar to what my 27 Chev in that there is a bolt that clamps the little end around the pin and stops it from coming adrift. Just a note on this method when re assembling don't over tighten this bolt and check the little end for cracks, I have experienced one breaking I was very lucky the piston contained the rod and stopped it from doing serious damage. I'm not sure what the function of the split in the piston skirt is I'm guessing it is something to do with expansion etc I have seen the same on others but some one more knowledgable then my self might be able to tell us the true function of this is. As for the crankshaft seals not sure on these early Chryslers as I'm still learning but I know many early engines had no crankshaft seals and relied on oil grooves correct clearances etc to keep the oil in or at least return some of it to the crankcase. Any way just few of my thoughts, keep the photos coming this is really interesting for me at least if no one else. Cheers Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 More pics for you Ben. Yes, you are correct about he piston pins, held in by a bolt that pass a cut out in the pin. However, these bolts were torque down very tight, need an extension on the ratchet to undo. My guess, probably around 50Nm or more. As always, there is one that is a PITA. Interestingly, there we two slightly different piston setups. Four with skirt expanders installed. All of these had a crack above the hole that holds the spring assembly inside the piston. And two without the skirt expander. Couple of chips out of the babbits in a couple big ends of the conrods. And the seals on the rear of the crank. photothumb.db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Thanks for the extra photos. Would love to add/ask a few questions but as I find myself doing round 2 with Shingles and it seems worst then round one I just have to be content with observing.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 After 6 month at the machinist we have some progress.... Cleaned up well, bored 0.060" over. Next is the bearings, all 13 of them, mains and rods, at $180 per bearing, there goes my budget rebuild....:( So off to a bloke 3 hours away to pour all the bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Cool thanks for the update I think I'm about to head down the same track as you and yes I'm probably going to blow my budget too hopefully the wife doesn't see by how much?. Who are you getting to do the bearing work? pm me if you don't want to advertise who it is. Thanks again Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vintageben said: Cool thanks for the update I think I'm about to head down the same track as you and yes I'm probably going to blow my budget too hopefully the wife doesn't see by how much?. Who are you getting to do the bearing work? pm me if you don't want to advertise who it is. Thanks again Ben The bloke in Stanthorpe. My machinist has confidence in him. I will pm you his details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Hi maok, Good to see that the old girl will be coming back to life! Was up in Stanthorpe last month for the Apple and Grape Festival, had a great time, hope all goes well with the rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, Sasha39 said: Hi maok, Good to see that the old girl will be coming back to life! Was up in Stanthorpe last month for the Apple and Grape Festival, had a great time, hope all goes well with the rebuild. Yep, she'll be running down the 1/4 mile in under a minute or two...:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Just wondering how the rebuild is coming along Cheers Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 Out with the old and in with the new...soonish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 Santa has finally arrived this xmas...:) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Lucky you at this point I must say I’m very jealous. Hey if you get a chance could you post a photo of the bearings please Cheers Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 Here you go Ben, this is a big end of a conrod. They are smeared in clean oil at the moment, the oil makes them look rough. I couldn't get any pics of the mains yet but in January reminded me to do so. The block has surface rust on it from sitting around for awhile after it was acid dripped. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintageben Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Cool thanks for that yep sooo jealous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha39 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Looks like someone's been a good boy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) On 12/14/2018 at 1:18 AM, maok said: Here you go Ben, this is a big end of a conrod. They are smeared in clean oil at the moment, the oil makes them look rough. I couldn't get any pics of the mains yet but in January reminded me to do so. The block has surface rust on it from sitting around for awhile after it was acid dripped. Mr. Maok, I hope those are not the rods that you are going to use, in your new engine. All those holes that are inside the Rod bearing, that I see, and in the out side thrust flanges, is dirt in your bearing babbitt. Those particular holes, are are caused from a Dirty pour, that had skimmings from the top of the babbitt pot surface, or some Guys just heat babbitt up in a ladle, and is poured into the jig, very crude. When you do it that way, the babbitt in the ladle will burn, and the burnt babbitt will go down the the bearing, and make the holes that you see. The problem is, the holes are not just on the surface, they will go clear to the core surface on the rod. So now you have dirt, between the tinning, if there is any, and the babbitt, which means that it is not stuck, as nothing sticks to dirt. Also, look at where the out sides of the thrust, touch the rod side, if that side is stuck, it will look like one metal, soaked in to the other. If there is a crack between the babbitt, and the rod, like water on wax, it will not be stuck. I will post some pictures of what dirt looks like from the back of the bearing, and also what the side of a flange should, and should not look like. It also looks like someone took Emery Cloth, to the inside of your bearings! Thanks, Herm. Edited December 15, 2018 by herm111 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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