Power steering fluid leaking.

[VickyBlue]

After 60 years, I think the pitman arm seal finally gave away... I am running the power steering pump level from full to almost dry  just turning the wheels from end to end. I did not have the time to investigate further, as I had to go to work today, but from what I read here, it sounds like it is the seal.  Both high and low pressure hoses are dry, the steering box itself is dry, I can see the fluid running down the pitman arm, but again, I haven't had the time to look further into it. Car is on the ramps, I was just about ready to replace the front engine mounts, looks like now I will finally have the opportunity to fix the steering play too. 

 

[buick5563]

Could just be leaking out of a hose, or fitting. The Pitman arm seal only holds back gear oil.

[VickyBlue]

I am hoping it is something simple. It happened fast, I was going to drive it up the ramps and saw the red fluid river on the floor. I am at work and will be home Tuesday night. Both the high and low pressure hoses looking from the top were dry. I wiped them clean, just to make sure, I topped the reservoir and took the steering wheel from stop to stop twice. The tank was empty, no splashing in the engine bay, just a lot of fluid dripping down to the garage floor. I assumed it was the pitman arm AK section... I will have more next week.

 

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, buick5563 said:

The Pitman arm seal only holds back gear oil.

Unless power steering fluid is leaking into the gear section like mine did.  My Pitman arm seal was good so it leaked out of the gear oil filler plug.

Check the gear oil.

Some choices:  drive it to get it hot...might fix and/or add a little STP; pull the unit to reseal; send out to be rebuilt; replace with a modern box the will give a better steering ratio..

[NTX5467]

RED fluid???!!!!  The spec for those cars should be "Type A" atf.  If THAT fluid is red, fine, BUT if the "red" if from Dexron-family-spec ATF,  THAT can be an issue, from my own experience with power steering leaks.

 

Find out where the leak is and flush the system to remove the "red" fluid . . . which, if the leak is as big as you claim it is, might not take too long to do.

 

Here's the reason . . . the oil seals and other rubber in the power steering system are spec'd to be compatible with a particular fluid.  At the time, it was "Type A" atf, which used to be "clear", as I understand.  It was also common practice to use existing fluids rather than have something special.  A very possible reason the convertible top hydraulics were spec'd for brake fluid AND the power steering (maybe other hydraulic systems) were spec'd for atf.  Those two fluids were in almost every garage or service center, back then, should they be needed.  Particular "hydraulic fluid" for farm machinery might have worked in the power steering system, but not everybody or garage had a pail of it nearby.

 

On the few cars I've obtained which had "red" fluid in the power steering, they usually had some sort of seep from the seals and/or hoses.  In the first one, I flushed the pump with genuine Power Steering Fluid (GM and Chrysler psf looked to be the same, but the Chrysler fluid, at the time, came in a quart CAN with a very nice rolled lip, so easier to "not drip").  After that, the seeps dried-up.  I had already learned that generic O-rings would only last about 2 weeks in the place of the transmission dip stick tube seal, rather than the correct GM part number o-ring.  So, when the leak is fixed, be sure to refill the system with the proper-spec fluid.  Type A atf is still around, just have to look for it.  Second choice, for me, would be the GM PSF (used to be 1050017 part number?) rather than a generic "fits many" fluid.  GM started using specific psf about 1962 model year.  Chrysler was probably similar.

 

In prior times, it was "acceptable" to use atf to top-off a power steering pump/reservoir.  Key word is "top off".  If that happened a few times before the leak was fixed, more atf in the mix than should have been.  Ford's Mercon is, I believe, allowed in THEIR current power steering systems, but that's NOT your vintage power steering system.  IF and when you get your box rebuilt/exchanged, use what the rebuilder recommends as THEY know what the rubber items they used and what oils they will last being in contact with.

 

On the other cars I have that have always had genuine OEM psf, the only hose leaks were from mechanical chaffing or just plain AGE.

 

I fully realize that Dexron III (and later) is fully backward-compatible to the first HydraMatic GM automatic transmission.  Which would mean it supercedes the earlier Type A spec, but it also could be that some of the modern additives were not around back then.  For that reason, my suggestion to find some genuine Type A-spec fluid or the GM psf.

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[VickyBlue]

Dexron III is what I have used since day one. 

[VickyBlue]

Here is what is going on: turning the wheel to the extreme end of the travel to the right, it passes a point where the sound changes and fluid starts gushing out of the pitman arm seal. It doesn't do it when turn to the left. Turning to the left at the end of the full travel, it acts as if there is some kind of internal limit and the steering wheel turning actually stops and will not go past it. Turning to the right, there is no stop at the end of the travel  and it is when  the sound changes and the fluid starts coming out. I don't know if it makes any sense, hope the video will help. 

O-ring or seal failed and letting fluid passing down to the gear section, as told? I put a stop nut at the left upright, so it kind of acts as a stop and limits the steering travel just before it gets to the point where it is forced to leak and the travel stops before it starts leaking. I am waiting to hear from you.

 

IMG_4196.MOV

Edited December 1, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[Beemon]

 

I borrowed these images from Hometown Buick. In the section, it states "the hydraulic units and steering gear housing are filled with the same oil as specified for Dynaflow transmissions." There isn't supposed to be gear oil in the gear box. Looks like you can slide by with a pitman shaft seal, available at NAPA and can be done by just dropping the pitman arm. There's a snap ring and some washers.

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[VickyBlue]

Steering box is out of the car. I printed the whole section from Hometown Buick where it shows everything. I will go over the notes tonight. 

[VickyBlue]

I removed the control valve assembly. Underneath there were two O-rings, which were in tact. The linkage cover, the 90* elbow, had an O-ring and that one was in tact too. I did not take the control valve apart, as it was getting late. There is one O-ring inside that I need to check out and measure. 

then I removed the snap ring that holds the pitman shaft seal, removed the side cover and pulled the pitman shaft assembly. The cover had a rubber style O-ring that it was also in tact. 

I drilled a couple of small holes onto the pitman seal itself and I was able to pull it off the gear housing. Seal part number showed 5684278 no manufacturer. There was one back up washer, not two and no leather dust seal, which tells me someone had been there before me.

What puzzled me was the amount of the little pink pieces of rubber all over inside the case... At first I thought it was metal shavings, I picked one up and pressed it between my fingers and it appeared to be rubber. I chewed on it and indeed was rubber, soft, not like O-ring type, I have no idea where it came from, but it is all over the housing... Piston look good, clean, no scoring.

I ordered last night through RockAuto the Lares 227-723 steering box, which checks out as a 2004 Jeep Cherokee box, Leif posted back in August. Price was $134.99

 

I decided against sending mine to Lares and have them rebuild it, as a while back, a member from here had an issue with something they repaired and they did not honor their word. The member was left helpless and they just called the whole incident "installation error". Another reason for not shipping mine to them was the fact that no-one knows what the price will be once they take it apart. It could be the advertised $449 plus shipping, it could be double that, depending on what they find wrong. Then I get a call from them and if I decide not to have it done, I have to pay shipping back to me again. This thing weighs a good 30 lbs. I would have liked a flat rate repair, just like the guy that did my brake booster did. $450 and we bring it to oem specs. Not $450 to see what's wrong with it and you are lucky we repair it and I pay shipping back to me, if I am not lucky and it needs major work and I am not willing to pay the extra cash, then I get it back same way I sent it to them, plus round trip shipping. 

If I just ask for the seals and O-rings, I bet you it will be $449. Don't get me wrong, I have never done business with them, I know some of you have done, I also know there are 3 sides to every story, but if it was me and I was treated like that, after spending all that money, I would have been pissed.

Anyways, my car is not a 400 points car, I have enough info from here to make it work, I know it has been done before, box should be here by next Friday.  I thought I had a set of 12 point star bit set to remove the end cover from the gear housing, but I did not. I am curious to see what's inside.

Edited December 5, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[Beemon]

If you ever try to rebuild your gear box, Fusick does offer a rebuild kit. Interested to see how the Jeep box works for you.

[60FlatTop]

I bought a couple of rebuilt boxes from Lares when I was servicing collector cars in the 1990's. It was relatively inexpensive and got the job done fast.

 

I never had much luck just changing the seal. They always leaked after. I think the perpetual oil in the steering shaft keeps and abrasive layer of dirt in the sealing surface so more than the seal needs repair. And the owners always noticed a better feel to the steering with a new box.

You have the steering box out now. Put a nice fresh rebuilt in. You won't regret it.

Bernie

Edited December 5, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

I am satisfied with my 2 year old rebuilt by Lares Corp steering box. But I have read the posts from another customer who was not as satisfied, and I do wonder about how the transaction seemed to have gone so wrong.

 

 

[Ttotired]

I run a repair business and I cant always offer a "flat rate" repair either, well, actually I can

 

What you do is think of the worse case scenario with what your going to repair, work out how much to fix it, then add a bit more for just in case

 

And there is your flat rate repair, but if you want to be fairer to your customers (and actually have customers) you explain that repair cost varies depending on the damage found

and the repairs required, so it might be this much, or it might be this much, bank on the most pricey and you might get change if its not that bad

 

By the way, the wear on the teeth on that pitman shaft looks impressive

 

 

[VickyBlue]

Tito, you are right...

 

Say hi to your brother Jermain btw.

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

There, like many other things, are what might be termed "percentage deals", where there is some confidence that most of the repair will fall into a certain ranges of what's needed and how much it will take to make it right again, whatever it is that might be being repaired/refurbished.  That could be in about 80% of the repairs seen by the particular repair facility.  This can work well for many customers and repairers.  IF a flat rate is used for the repair amount, then that would probably mean that should your item only need some "maintenance items" rather than "hard parts", you "over-paid" or probably paid enough to compensate for possible overages in other customers' repairs.

 

OR . . . the repair facility "remanufactures" the item, discarding any wear items and replaces them as a matter of course, which can also mean they might offer a better warranty as they know the source of all items on the assembly and that THEIR people replaced. them, basically reusing only the items case or similar.  It can also mean a more generic calibration in gear ratio and torsion bar (in the case of power steering gears).  For a gearbox as "variable" as to what's in it as the GM800 (or other similar GM steering gearboxes), some of those internal differences might be important . . . for others, not so much.

 

KEY thing is to inquire as to just what work/repairs/fefurbishment will be done by the facility, plus any warranty coverages AND possible return policies.

 

From the business' point of view, it can be less complicated to do the "one price" repair, being specific for model year and "ratio"/"effort" applications.  Whether you might desire to just purchase a unit and pay the core charge would be your determination, but keeping your core might be a good move, all things considered.  This can allow for more "down the road" flexibility for the vehicle owner.

 

IF the facility did separate pricing for "reseal" or "overhaul", when the "reseal" job is disassembled, unsuspected wear can become evident, which (depending upon the dialogue) can be perceived differently by different customers.  End result is that more money and work are needed, from what was originally suspected.  Even for a "low mileage" unit, non-use wear issues might be hidden.

 

Different considerations, depending upon which side of the situation one might be on.

 

NTX5467

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[VickyBlue]

Just an update. I have both good news and bad news. The good news is the gentleman that owns the business,  Neil, is an honest, respectable man.The bad news is, my steering box is beyond repair due to a previous repair job. He called me to let me know anyone trying to repair this steering box will be just getting my money and run. He didn't get into details but even if he tried to get used parts for it, it would still be having issues, like "dead spots" and eventually will leak again. I respect him for being honest. 

Back to the other option, the 2004 Jeep Cherokee or Lares 1332 box Leif used back in August, it turned out the input shaft was a DD smooth style and not splined. I would also need adapters for the metric style HP line and possibly a new HP line, along with an in line flow restrictor, like Heidts 101 or so. Or get a box specific pump. Plus I would still have to fabricate the brackets and this job indeed needs two people in order to mount, measure and drill. For that reason I returned the box back to Rock Auto in hopes Neil was going to repair mine. Now I am back to square one. 

For future reference the Lares 13 32  box does not come with a splined input shaft. At least not the one they sent me. It did come from Lares and it did have their name on it. 

Frustrating...

 

 

 

This is is what I used as a reference.

 

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/281094-1956-steering-gear-box/

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[Beemon]

I was digging around and found this on TeamBuick: https://www.teambuick.com/forums/showthread.php?15423-1956-Buick-Special-rack-and-pinion-conversion

 

Someone removed the entire drag link assembly and dropped a "bolt-in" rack and pinion for a 55 Chevy after minor adjustments to the mounting bracket. Seems very interesting. Not sure the price, but probably very expensive. Would just need two U-joints with a connection at the rag joint. Another alternative is maybe finding a junked gear box? Or see if Leif still has the dimensions for his brackets.

[Leif Holmberg]

Sorry,I have no dimentions from the brackets.

Leif in Sweden.

 

[VickyBlue]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121829683965?item=121829683965&frommaketrack=true&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

 

I sent him an email, he is 45 min south of me, asking him if he installs them or  if he knows of anyone that could do it for me. I don't know if Mike would be interested, I am open to replacing the steering column.  I am home now one day a week, the weather in Chicago has been crazy, between the cancellations and trying to get a ride home, I do not have the time to do this.  I am going to pick up the boat anchor from Neil's shop, I will have him put a pitman seal and close it up tight, fill it up with grease and turn it into a manual box so I can move and possibly load the car up into a trailer if I have to, as the car the way it is now with everything disconnected it not moveable. 

Edited December 17, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

You havnt considered a second hand one if you cant get a rebuilt one?

 

If you can get one, just get it fitted and off you go, and then you can get the original one fixed at your leisure

 

 

[VickyBlue]

Tito, 

I did. But chances are the used one will be in the same shape or at least close to, my original one. They are just old and not very many people left that can do it right. Plus, I just want to do it once, this box weighs 50 plus pounds and it is a two person job. Shipping alone will be close to the price of the replacement pump.  The original one is beyond repair in its current condition. Of course there is nothing $1000 can't fix, but I am not into that game. I will figure it out. At least I didn't mail it to some expert to tell me the initial $440 was going to be $950 plus shipping.

[buick5563]

I don't have enough experience on this alteration, VB.

I will help if ya need it, but I'd just be peein' in the wind.

[VickyBlue]

No worries Mike... Willie was able to provide me with parts number for a direct fit steering box with rag joint. Parts were ordered and they are in transit. Hope to have it done soon. Will post everything in detail, with pictures, measurements and part numbers. 

[old-tank]

The part number came from my friend with a personalized 54 Buick.

Known to work.

[VickyBlue]

Took me two days to figure it out... I know it looks simple now, but there were two issues I was dealing with: if I used the two bottom holes, the rag joint wasn't long enough to attach the box to the column. If I attached the steering box to the joint and to the column, none of the bottom two holes lined up. 

The third upper hole, I was able to make a mounting stud using a grade 8 bolt and attached it to the stock upper left bolt hole. Once done, it relieved most of the weight. I was going back and forth between Leif's pictures and my notes, but I was hitting a brick wall. The Lares box had 4 mounting tabs, the CPP had 3. After 9 hrs of grinding, cutting, put the box in, remove the box, I gave up.

I started fresh this morning, I made a new bracket and attached the box to the bracket. Then, after about 40 tries, a little bit of more grinding, some thread tapping on to the bracket, the box is in and secured. Willie's 55 pitman arm fit like a glove. I distance from center to full right turn is now 1.75 turns, same for the other direction. 

 

Here is my parts list with part numbers:

Steering Box CPP500 

SPECIFICATIONS: (for #CP50000 and #CP50003)
Steering ratio: 14:1
Input shaft is 3/4”-30 spline (the same as the 605 box)
Sector shaft is 1” 36-4 tapered spline, the same as the original 1955-64 pitman shaft
Pressure fitting is 7/16 tube (11/16-18 inv. fl.)
Return fitting is 3/8 tube (5/8-18 inv. fl.) 

Steering Box high pressure line fitting Russell 648050 11/16-18 -6AN 

Steering pump reservoir high pressure fitting Russell 640380 5/8-18 -6AN

Russell 620421 Powerflex power steering hose end 

Russell 620401 Powerflex power steering hose end

Russell 632600 Powerflex power steering hose.

3/4 30 spline rag joint (68-83 Corvette)

 

I am still waiting for the two hose end fittings, I should have them tomorrow. The reason for the -6AN line, I could not get a adapter to go from the stock 7/16-24 of the stock steering box to the 11/16-18 of the CPP. Once I got the adapter, NAPA could not make me a line because of the seat angle of the adapter. The custom -6AN line was my only option. I have not started it yet, so I have no idea how it is going to sound, but the box is in, I have full travel, (wheels of ground) it is tight, (nothing like my old one) and I have zero play at the wheel. 

 

 

[NTX5467]

WOW!  Glad it's all secure now!  Thanks for that commentary and pictures!

 

Please keep us posted on how things progress!

 

NTX5467

[VickyBlue]

Parts came in late, I was able to make the high pressure line and button up every thing. I still need to get the PS fluid and bleed the air out. 

[JohnD1956]

Hope this works out for you.  It may just be the angle in the pictures but is the rag joint slightly misaligned?  If so, this may be something to monitor closely for a while.

[Beemon]

46 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Hope this works out for you.  It may just be the angle in the pictures but is the rag joint slightly misaligned?  If so, this may be something to monitor closely for a while.

 

I noticed that as well, but the rag joint should give some type of flex similar to a U-joint. Hopefully won't be too much of an issue. I'm more worried about the drag link being squared in a conversion like this. There's a few 55's near me that this wouldn't be such an impossible task - I've noticed most people don't go for suspension parts at the salvage yards, mostly just the heads and block near hear.

 

Looking forward to the road test and final cost!

[VickyBlue]

I see what you are saying, second picture from he top, previous post. I attached the joint to the steering column first, the alignment pins have room to flex, but the guiding bolts that went through the rubber biscuit set the angle for the spline part of the joint. Once the joint was secured, then I started positioning the steering box and making sure the input shaft was not binding going through the splines... The manual also states, adjusting the steering column will have an effect on the joint. My main concern, well one of many, was box movement with engine running and WoW (weight on wheels). There is none. I am sure someone with  a lathe can fabricate something  and make it look like stock, but this what worked for me under my circumstances and with the tools I had.

 

I topped off the reservoir today with GM type PS fluid, had my youngest turn the wheel from side to side with the wheels off the ground,  about 40 times, until there was no bubbles, checking on the fluid level. Once done, I cranked the engine about 10 times without starting it, for about 10 seconds each time. Checked both the level and for bubbles. Then I started the engine and let it run for 30 seconds, turned it off and check the level again. Finally, I took the steering wheel from end to end with the engine running and weight still of wheels. Whisper quiet... No dead spots, no binding, did it for about 10 times, shut the engine off and looked at the reservoir. No foaming or bubbles. Took it for a 10 mile drive...

 

I have had this car for 9 years now. Knowing what I know now, someone before me had tried to fix steering issues by removing and rebuilding the box. The rebuilt was done poorly (according to the repair shop I got it back from) and as a result, the piston had suffered a catastrophic failure. Sure, it could have been fixed, but I would have to buy a repairable core, as mine is trash. Cores are about $300 plus the $445 for the service, plus the shipping. If I had sent it to Lares, I don't think I would have have it back for less than $800 out the door. 

 

My car now drives like a new car. There are no dead spots. It self centers. There is no binding. I hit both spindle stops and the pump does not change sound. With the steering box centered, steering wheel centered in a Y configuration, ( I have seen it both ways, Y and upside down Y), bottom part of the Y at "6'oclock" it makes a full circle, then passes 12 and stops at "2 o'clock" before I hit the stop. Same for the other side. There is no pump whine. It is a joy to drive and it almost feels like a dream, ( with bias ply tires!) as I had learned to drive and live with the issues all these years, until two weeks ago, when it finally failed. How long will this box last? I have no idea. But I know it is new with all new components and not remanufactured.

 

Some final thoughts: I have nothing against Lares, I have never done business with him, but I hate confrontation and last minute price changes. I had no idea what I had, had already been messed with before and it was trash. I am sure my box would have ended better than what it was, but it still would have been an $800 old used rebuild box... How much did all this cost me? Here you go Ben:

 

Box                     $419.00

Joint                      $25.51

 632600                 $28.00  

 648050                   $8.50

 640380                   $8.50

620421                  $19.99

620401                  $14.99

Fluid                       $14.00

6 Grade 8 bolts        $3.50

Willie's Pitman Arm 

-----------------------------

Total:                     $541.99

 

Would I do it  again? ONLY as a necessity if I ABSOLUTELY had no other option. It would have been easier with help, but no such luxury. I am glad it is all behind though... Happy New Year Vicky

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by VickyBlue (see edit history)

[Beemon]

The price is not bad at all, about a hundred shy of a rebuild. Do you have a part number for the rag joint coupler? 

[NTX5467]

Thanks for that update and information!  I'm GLAD it worked out as well as it did!  Thanks for all of your graphic information and details!

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

NTX5467

 

 

[VickyBlue]

2 hours ago, Beemon said:

The price is not bad at all, about a hundred shy of a rebuild. Do you have a part number for the rag joint coupler? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221569136898?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT