John348

Warning: Can DEF for tow vehicles can go bad?

Recommended Posts

John, I would do a search on the Duramax forum before going to the dealer.   I don't buy anything from the dealer other what I absolutely have to. They are VERY proud of their products.  They don't call them the 'stealer' for nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Curti said:

John, I would do a search on the Duramax forum before going to the dealer.   I don't buy anything from the dealer other what I absolutely have to. They are VERY proud of their products.  They don't call them the 'stealer' for nothing.

 

Hey Curti,

I am with you on that, I am just trying to keep it from coming back my way by them saying "you did not use the GM formula."  I was just going over my log book and receipts on every bill for service every 5,000 miles there is a line item 'top off DEF' so in this case I have the ball in my court............. I hope....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Hey Curti,

I am with you on that, I am just trying to keep it from coming back my way by them saying "you did not use the GM formula."  I was just going over my log book and receipts on every bill for service every 5,000 miles there is a line item 'top off DEF' so in this case I have the ball in my court............. I hope....

 

Personally John, I think your DEF is OK, and you will need some warranty work.  If I were you, I would siphon a little bit out and be prepared to get it tested.  They may claim you put some bad stuff in and want to charge you for the work .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And for those Diesel naysayers.... Pulling a enclosed fully loaded  trailer (8 cyl Auburn)  with the 8 foot box full of engines and hard parts thru Loveland pass at 65-70 mph without  blinking an eye . ya just can't beat 385 HP @ 850 lbs TQ.

The average for the 2K mile trip 13 MPG empty 22 MPG.

 

2.5 gallons of blue def is 9.99 at Fleet Farm.

Edited by Curti (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is also Federal legislation (xxx-Magnuson?) of many years standing which prohibits manufacturers/dealers from requiring only their own parts/products to maintain warranties.  You might want to research this before you visit dealer.  We're all wishing you the best and cheapest outcome!

 

Moreover, it may just be Calif where I live, but there may be a 50k mile/4 year warranty on anything EMISSIONS related.  Check your emissions warranty under both Federal and your-state law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

per the interweb, whatever that's worth, this comes up when you google "DEF shelf life":

 

"DEF will degrade over time depending on temperature and exposure to sun light. Expectations for shelf life as defined by ISO Spec 22241-3 are the minimum expectations for shelf life when stored at constant temperatures. If stored between 10 and 90 deg F, shelf life will easily be one year."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had lunch today with a friend who owns a very large Diesel repair shop. Until a few years ago they did the rebuilds for GM warranty injector pumps. He tells me that stanadyne diesel additive has a long shelf life if it is sealed from air. It will become thicker but it should still be ok to use. They only had one problem with this product with a customer that had a drum and over a couple of years the last few gallons had to be scraped in the end.  He says that not seeing it can not say 100% but it should be ok and not need changing being only six months old..

 Another thing we talked about when walking through the machine shop. They had two Duramax engines that were shot with low miles on them. Both engines had been chipped for more power and he says the engine can not take the extra power when driven harder. He says they are a fantastic engine and will last for years of driving but soon as you chip the engine you are asking for trouble.

Edited by Joe in Canada (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Follow-up 

I had made an appointment with the larger volume  diesel GM dealer here on Long Island, One of my good friends was a partner at the GMC dealer where I had bought it new and had since sold off his portion of the dealership (I am going to miss his deals!).He told me that this other dealer would be the best place to go. Everything was covered under warranty so I was rather happy about that! I was expecting a at least a $1200 bill for this.

Diagnosis says:

 

Customer states that poor quality DEF fluid message is on DIC

and reduced power mode is in 20 miles please check and advise

 

Performed Exhaust Fluid Quality Test, Failed test, and false

reading from #1 sensor, replaced nox sensor performed

the service regeneration 35 grams of soot in scr

reprogrammed the ECU with the latest calibration, warranty

code 11AFE Bulletin 11-06-04-0014  Date code on NOX #2

110917 below date 120914 as per bulletin #13386A 

 

Even though they are saying the fluid failed the make no mention that the fluid was replaced? There was also bulletins that I did not see. When I brought it in they told me that there were no hard codes stored in the ecu, so.... 

anyway all is good and I  learned something from this experience thanks to all of your help,

Edited by John348 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:25 PM, Joe in Canada said:

Had lunch today with a friend who owns a very large Diesel repair shop. Until a few years ago they did the rebuilds for GM warranty injector pumps. He tells me that stanadyne diesel additive has a long shelf life if it is sealed from air. It will become thicker but it should still be ok to use. They only had one problem with this product with a customer that had a drum and over a couple of years the last few gallons had to be scraped in the end.  He says that not seeing it can not say 100% but it should be ok and not need changing being only six months old..

 Another thing we talked about when walking through the machine shop. They had two Duramax engines that were shot with low miles on them. Both engines had been chipped for more power and he says the engine can not take the extra power when driven harder. He says they are a fantastic engine and will last for years of driving but soon as you chip the engine you are asking for trouble.

 

I am a performance guy but my tow rigs and DDs will never get chipped.

I sometimes wish my Motor Coach would pull hills better but I resist the temptation.

Of coarse my toys aren't computer controlled so I guess no chips at all.

For dependability stock works best.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, JACK M said:

For dependability stock works best.

 

Well, within some limits since the #1 goal is "low cost" and this includes the warranty period. The easiest way to meet standards is to run an engine at a near constant temperature and for many years that number (at least for GM) was 200F coolant and 100F intake air temp..

 

OTOH I have found that running engines on the cool side of the specs can dramatically increase longevity particularly when you tend to keep cars you like for decades. Also living where it rarely gets very hot or very cool makes a difference. Consequently I believe in heavy duty cooling systems (usually comes with AC) and run non-computer cars at 160-170F and computer cars at 180-190F. To do this I like a fast-opening thermostat (e.g. Stant Superstat), clean radiators, and either a heavy duty clutch fan or electric fans reprogrammed to come in early and stay on a little longer.

 

Other than that I do not mess with the advance curves or maps but did turn "highway mode" on for my GTP.

 

My experience with diesels is similar but, like a horse, they do not know when to quit & will continue pulling up to meltdown. Particularly with a boosted diesel it is best to have an EGT readout and drive on it - when it goes up, slow down. Suspect that is where a lot of chipped failures come from. Also after a hard pull let it idle for a while until the temps come down.

 

Have no experience yet with a boosted direct injection gas engine but suspect it will be similar to a diesel since little/no detonation warning.

 

Have found that if you keep the engine cool, everything under the hood lasts longer. Believe it or don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like stock works best, and is easiest is what I meant to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

I am a performance guy but my tow rigs and DDs will never get chipped.

I sometimes wish my Motor Coach would pull hills better but I resist the temptation.

Of coarse my toys aren't computer controlled so I guess no chips at all.

For dependability stock works best.

 

Jack that is a 100% so true!   I have a good friend of mine who decided he was going to install one of those tuner box's into his truck, same make and year as mine, As soon as he did it a code scrolled across his dashboard saying something along the line "original program in ECU has been altered" I myself am not about to play around with a warranty on a $60K+ truck to gain an extra MPG, or to tow more. It already an tow 2X more then I would ever need. There really is no need to mess around with trucks.They just run really good, my year was the first for DEF, so I know I was caught in a learning curve 

 

1 hour ago, padgett said:

 

Well, within some limits since the #1 goal is "low cost" and this includes the warranty period. The easiest way to meet standards is to run an engine at a near constant temperature and for many years that number (at least for GM) was 200F coolant and 100F intake air temp..

 

OTOH I have found that running engines on the cool side of the specs can dramatically increase longevity particularly when you tend to keep cars you like for decades. Also living where it rarely gets very hot or very cool makes a difference. Consequently I believe in heavy duty cooling systems (usually comes with AC) and run non-computer cars at 160-170F and computer cars at 180-190F. To do this I like a fast-opening thermostat (e.g. Stant Superstat), clean radiators, and either a heavy duty clutch fan or electric fans reprogrammed to come in early and stay on a little longer.

 

Other than that I do not mess with the advance curves or maps but did turn "highway mode" on for my GTP.

 

My experience with diesels is similar but, like a horse, they do not know when to quit & will continue pulling up to meltdown. Particularly with a boosted diesel it is best to have an EGT readout and drive on it - when it goes up, slow down. Suspect that is where a lot of chipped failures come from. Also after a hard pull let it idle for a while until the temps come down.

 

Have no experience yet with a boosted direct injection gas engine but suspect it will be similar to a diesel since little/no detonation warning.

 

Have found that if you keep the engine cool, everything under the hood lasts longer. Believe it or don't.

 

Mr P very true, but common sense is that a cool engine will last longer why would anyone not believe your statement?, Getting it back on track to diesels the Duromax engine temp is seldom a problem when towing, the tranny temp is the one to watch, With the Allison tranny it is really not an issue. To be honest I don't think I would want it to run any cooler, When I first purchased it there were days I did not get any heat out of it for almost 15 miles of driving. Engine block heaters along with HD cooling system are standard (engine block heaters are standard north of the Mason Dixon line) I do plug it in if it is going to it for a period of time in the cold weather while I have it up north for a few more weeks, just so I have heat that much quicker

FYI True HD cooling systems usually did come on vehicles wit A/C but pretty much every vehicle manufactured in the past 20 years came standard with A/C so your point pretty much is not a point. Just so you know that HD cooling systems are standard equipment on GM 2500 and 3500 HD diesel trucks (it's all part of the HD thing),  but then again isn't that is what the original topic was about correct? Diesel tow vehicles and DEF fluid and not gasoline powered direct injected turbo engines which really has nothing to do with diesel exhaust fluid

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the take away is: They left the remaining DEF in the tank and updated the ECU with the most current software. I wonder what their DEF test consists of ? 

You are a lucky man to escape with out a lighter wallet !! I can restore old 30's cars, but this stuff is hard to keep up with.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Curti said:

So, the take away is: They left the remaining DEF in the tank and updated the ECU with the most current software. I wonder what their DEF test consists of ? 

You are a lucky man to escape with out a lighter wallet !! I can restore old 30's cars, but this stuff is hard to keep up with.

 

You hit it on the head Curti. If they replaced the fluid I would have been charged for it, which I have no problem with. I wonder about that test myself.... anyway like you said I got a nice Christmas gift, not being charged. I guess the computer was reprogrammed to read a different parameter of soot by the NOX that was not part of the initial program in 2012, 

It is not only hard to keep up with these things, I just that I don't want to anymore

thanks for your concern

Edited by John348 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said I run "on the cool side of the specs". This means after the computer is "all in". All of my cars have thermostats and I prefer Stant Superstats because the open and close very quickly.

 

True, I no longer have a diesel but had a Vixen RV with a TD for years, started driving on the temperature gauge particularly when towing long before.

 

"When I first purchased it there were days I did not get any heat out of it for almost 15 miles of driving.". That sounds like a thermostat that is stuck open. My experience is that at 100F coolant you get warm air and by 180F it is "roast you out" even at 0F (used to live in Indiana) if everything is working properly.

 

Do agree that the trans temp is one of the things I monitor particularly when towing & fortunately my Jeep TV has a trans temp readout. Have noticed that a lockup trans runs cooler than a non like the THM-400 in my old station wagon (remember it overflowing at the top of Monteagle on a hot day when young and ignorant). Another trick is to drop down a gear or two so as to stay in lockup on a grade rather than go into PE and unlock. Is DEF use related to power demand ?

 

ps was responding to post #34.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, padgett said:

Well said I run "on the cool side of the specs". This means after the computer is "all in". All of my cars have thermostats and I prefer Stant Superstats because the open and close very quickly.

 

True, I no longer have a diesel but had a Vixen RV with a TD for years, started driving on the temperature gauge particularly when towing long before.

 

"When I first purchased it there were days I did not get any heat out of it for almost 15 miles of driving.". That sounds like a thermostat that is stuck open. My experience is that at 100F coolant you get warm air and by 180F it is "roast you out" even at 0F (used to live in Indiana) if everything is working properly.

 

Do agree that the trans temp is one of the things I monitor particularly when towing & fortunately my Jeep TV has a trans temp readout. Have noticed that a lockup trans runs cooler than a non like the THM-400 in my old station wagon (remember it overflowing at the top of Monteagle on a hot day when young and ignorant). Another trick is to drop down a gear or two so as to stay in lockup on a grade rather than go into PE and unlock. Is DEF use related to power demand ?

 

ps was responding to post #34.

 

No Mr P that is the nature of diesels they just run cool, The thermostat was not stuck open, This happened when the truck was delivered to me new. Just so you know that these vehicles come standard from the factory with a set of grill covers, as well as an electric engine block heater so heating the passenger compartment on very cold days can take time Besides if the stat was stuck open I would have gotten a code. You are constantly comparing your experience with your gasoline powered light duty SUV, (it is not even a 1500) to a heavy duty diesel tow vehicle, it is apples to oranges, as much as you would like to be it is not the same thing.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, John348 said:

Customer states that poor quality DEF fluid message is on DIC

and reduced power mode is in 20 miles please check and advise

 

Performed Exhaust Fluid Quality Test, Failed test, and false

reading from #1 sensor, replaced nox sensor performed

the service regeneration 35 grams of soot in scr

reprogrammed the ECU with the latest calibration, warranty

code 11AFE Bulletin 11-06-04-0014  Date code on NOX #2

110917 below date 120914 as per bulletin #13386A 

Notice the report says "replaced NOx sensor".  It apparently it had a NOx sensor that was not reading properly so the dealer fixed the problem part.  Additionally, they updated the ECU with the latest calibration file. Often calibration parameters are changed slightly to make some minor improvements that may be totally unrelated to the issue you are having.  Less frequently the software is updated for the same reason.  Since your truck was already in the shop they wanted to put in the latest.

 

The addition of the DEF injection system was required by government regulations around diesel emissions.  Additionally, they require the vehicle to be disabled should the owner fail to refill the DEF system which is basically defeating an emission control system, so the OEMs have to come up with a way to do this.  The GM approached is to start with warnings, then a gradual speed limitation to give ample time to comply before you are left stranded.

 

At times the DEF system is a pain but, personally, I like being able to idle the truck without smelling up the surroundings.  You hardly smell anything coming from the exhaust.

Scott

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now