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1948 New Yorker 2 year road trip


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36 minutes ago, 48NWYKR said:

See the geese on the outer edge? it popped that entire top off that the grease nipple screws into, I'll get a better pic tomorrow. and it has a lot of play :(

 

Ok well... it looks like a screw bushing to me. Hopefully Rusty or someone more familiar with this exact suspension can give you the real scoop...

 

How these generally work is the threads on the shaft (yes, threads) are about the same pitch as the mushy, round, self tapping threads that hold the cap into the control arm. That is what allows you to assemble it.

 

Here is a picture of random screw bushings off a Ford.

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Once assembled, the greased threads are what allow the control arm to move. As you can see, the arm will move fore and aft slightly in relation to the car, due to the threads.

 

Bushings may be available separately, but if the control arm is loose on the shaft. most likely the shaft is bad too.

 

I would probably take the control arm and shaft off of the car to work on it, if you can. You will need the spring pressure off of it no matter what.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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28 minutes ago, c49er said:

No weight/spring and dampers on your Heat riser shaft?  I have had to replace repair these 8 cylinder manifolds... proper OE parts are very hard to find...

Yeah I have noting at all there, it came like that.... two studs and a shaft that does not move.... this one is going to be fun, would fixing this possibly increase gas millage as well as easier starts when hot? Thank you for the pictures! Now at least I know what to look for!

Edited by 48NWYKR (see edit history)
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28 minutes ago, c49er said:

No weight/spring and dampers on the Heat riser shaft?

 

Where did you get that little woven pad doohickey? I bought the last two or three of those out of the Chrysler parts system back in 1996 or 1997, at least the ones for the 60s era cars, and this looks like the same part. Is it reproduced now?

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26 minutes ago, 48NWYKR said:

Now at least I know what to look for!

 

A weight could be made if it was really unobtanium. I'll bet it wont be too hard to find. The thermostatic spring is often shot, but the one in the pic looks very close to what Chrysler used in the 60s and 70s, and in a pinch it would probably interchange.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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17 minutes ago, Bloo said:

The thermostatic spring is often shot, but the one in the pic looks very close to what Chrysler used in the 60s and 70s, and in a pinch it would probably interchange.

I can find one for the 6 cyl on various websites and ebay.... but no 8 cyl they are different but I wonder by how much! 

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1 minute ago, 48NWYKR said:

I can find one for the 6 cyl on various websites and ebay.... but no 8 cyl they are different but I wonder by how much! 

 

I don't know. If you can put it on in such a way that you wind it until the valve goes to the cold position plus about a half turn to hook it around the peg (at room temperature) it will probably work fine.

 

Of course the correct parts are preferable if you can get them.

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No no no.... lol

 

Save the high-res versions of those pictures though! It may come in handy later.

 

Somebody will have that weight on a junk broken manifold. Ask around. It wouldn't surprise me if some sixes are the same. You can improvise the rest. Even the weight could be made if it were really necessary. Can you weld? I made this one for a 1936 Pontiac. I wish I had pictures like that to work with!

 

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1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

Where did you get that little woven pad doohickey? I bought the last two or three of those out of the Chrysler parts system back in 1996 or 1997, at least the ones for the 60s era cars, and this looks like the same part. Is it reproduced now?

I had a couple partial kits for the straight eights. 

These heat riser kits are not reproduced for the 323 "8's"

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I didn't mean the whole kit... I meant that little stop thing.

 

Just looking at that heat riser of yours, lots of 60s era parts would fit, even the bushings I think. Hopefully his bushings wont break loose from the manifold, and he wont have to take the shaft out..

 

The stuff always needed to get mopar heat risers working back in the day were the thermostat spring, the little keying tab that locks the weight in position, and that silly little stop.

 

RIght now, on ebay, a generic mopar thermostat spring is listed (back to 1933!). I assume it is a repro. The lock tab for the weight is also listed. Not sure if those are repro or NOS. Not worth making yourself for $5 (but it wouldn't be hard).

 

What is missing is that silly little stop. If I remember correctly it fits everything up to 1970 or so, and it is always bad. Somebody should repro that.

 

After there were no more of them, I just used pieces of spring steel with a little more bend so the butterfly lands in the right place. It might make noise but it works.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Exhaust flow pressure against the heat riser flap plate... counter weight, size of the Bi-metallic spring, heat calibration of the spring, are just some of the things to take into account of how soon or how late the heat riser plate opens, closes etc.    The engineers probably did a lot of testing to get it right.

 Just sayin........ 

The stop is a anti-rattle/knock damper and stop. Yes you should be able to make one. These eights are different than the sixes in sizing. AMS used to have the springs for the 8...$$$$$$$

In hot country no need for a heat riser really. But to fix the car right fix it:)

 

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I'll bet they did do a lot of testing to get it right. Fixing one with the correct parts is the way to go whenever possible. Still, they all do about the same thing, and a working riser of any sort would be far superior to the stuck incomplete one in this thread. There is a page on p15-d24.com that describes pretty succinctly what a Chrysler heat riser should do. p15 production ended in early 1949, but this description is about right for any V8 era Chrysler heat riser up until the round weights appeared in about 1970.

 

Some examples:

 

"After installation test the operation of the heat riser. With the engine cold and not running you should be able to move it forward almost 90 degrees, release and have it snap back to the upright position. Start the car, and rev the engine. The counterweight should again move forward as the force of the exhaust gas causes the valve to open and exit out the exhaust system. The counter weight should return to the upright position when the engine drops back to idle. Check the spring resistance of turning the counterweight. (wear gloves, it will get very hot!) As the engine warms and the exhaust manifold heats up, spring tension should lesson, divert less hot gasses to the heat chamber."

 

"When the counterweight is a 12 o’clock the valve is closed (or in the up position), diverting hot gas into the intake manifold heat chamber. When the counterweight is in the 3 o’clock position, the valve should be open, allowing the exhaust gas to pass straight through the manifold to the exhaust system."

 

(That could be 9 o clock for open on some cars I imagine, depending which end of the shaft the weight is on  The important part is that the weight came down 90 degrees or a little less )

 

"When attaching the spring and counterweight be sure to wrap the spring the correct number of turns and in a counterclockwise direction. It should be wrapped 335 degrees. Also check the valve alignment to the counterweight."

 

(Ok, 335 degrees is a bit more than I guessed, but it is still less than a turn. Also, counterclockwise might not apply to every car)

 

http://p15-d24.com/page/p15d24/tech/heat_riser_adviser.html/

 

I think you could get a long way with what is on that page.

 

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On 12/4/2017 at 8:15 PM, c49er said:

I have had to replace repair these 8 cylinder manifolds...

 

So after spending a lot of time trying to get that shaft to move, I took the manifold apart, (yes! yes! I can hear the comments already!) Bob how the hell do you get to the two nuts on either side of the center part of the manifold (the shared ones with the intake and the exhaust) Man what kind of voodoo magic wrench/socket/hammer/spanner do you need for that! You can't bloody get to it! Managed in the end but what a SOB!

Anyway so good I found it I guess... depending on how you look at things.... yup you guessed it..... the Manifold has a crack in it! yay!!! It is right in the corner where the horizontal meets the vertical on the smooth machined part, extends about 1/2 inch past on either side. Looking at the side of the intake manifold that sits right there it has been blowing for some time...

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Ya keep diggin and you find more issues!!!!

Oh those manifolds are a costly pain in the you know what!

I use a thin universal joint or a extension wobbly with a thin 9/16" socket on the straight "8" Chrysler manifolds to do the tight bolts and nuts..

That's a very common crack spot too. The spot yours cracked can be caused by stress at the 2-1/2" header pipe improperly adjusted with the bracket attached at the bell housing or a poorly replaced muffler stressing on the header pipe.

 

The three manifold sections are supposed to slide in and out of each other but over the years get rusted together and then the ends  or end "wings" crack because the block studs prevent fore and aft expansion and contraction.The manifold three sections are fitted together at the three joints with a slight pipe taper so to speak and these joints are meant to move independently of each other. It they don't the manifolds crack at the center or at the end pieces.

Trying to heat these tapered joints sometimes works and the two end pieces can be pulled out to be cleaned up at the joint... other times the thin areas at the joints will crack!... Real bad.

I have replaced many of these manifolds over the years.

 

1950 C49 Hdtp Exhaust Manifold Repairs (5).JPG

1946-50 Chrysler 8 cyl Exhaust Manifold.JPG

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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12 hours ago, c49er said:

The spot yours cracked can be caused by stress at the 2-1/2" header pipe improperly adjusted with the bracket attached at the bell housing or a poorly replaced muffler stressing on the header pipe.

Yup.... I bet that's it, the header pipe runs all the way down and and is welded directly to the muffler (no clamp) the muffler also has a huge fold in it as if it took a hit of some-kind (over a speed-bump maybe?) So the header has been cracked for at as long as I have had it.. no telling when it happened before that!

So brazing should work .... right? or Mig with a special rad and Argon?

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Don't braze an exhaust manifold. I understand these are hard to come by, but replacement is BY FAR the best option if you can make it happen.

 

I have never yet seen a welded exhaust manifold stay welded long term. The heat, expansion/contraction stress and leverage exerted is just too much. There are members of this forum however who have had success with welded manifolds. If you need to weld it, I suggest you ask around and hire the best cast iron welder that you can find. Find someone in the forum who has a welded exhaust manifold that held together, and hire the same person. It will probably need re-machining when you get it back.

 

Generally speaking, it is possible to weld cast iron successfully, the trick is to pre-heat and post-heat. It is usually done with a stick welder and a high-nickel rod. The casting is put in a kiln and heated up to something close to welding temperature. It is then pulled out, welded (quickly), probably hammered to relieve stress (not sure on this detail), and then shoved immediately back in the kiln. It is then allowed to cool down VERY SLOWLY. This means hours if not days. Probably days.

 

It is also possible to torch weld cast iron. I have seen old welding texts that treat this as routine. Special rod is needed, as is the pre-heat and post-heat in the kiln. I have never seen it done.

 

Without pre-heat and post-heat the weld will crack along it's edge immediately, probably while you are still welding......

 

I have never heard of mig welding cast iron. I imagine it is possible (with a kiln).

 

A long time ago before I knew better, I rebushed a heat riser with brass. The bushings disappeared. About the same time a friend of mine tried to braze cracked headers. The brass melted and blew out. I wouldn't try brass. On a part that runs colder it would probably be ok. Brass works on exhaust further toward the back of the car where there is less heat.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Best to get another one.

As mentioned no brazing. I have heard of mig.. quick cold one triggers..... cool and lightly peen each tiny weld spot ..i wouldn't do it.

Then if the manifold needs to be surfaced:wacko:!!!!

Both the intake and the exhaust need to be surfaced bolted together with the four through bolts  @ the heat riser mounting... that heat riser gasket mounting area is also prone to deep pitting and rust. It can leak there too... then that area needs machining.

 

There are a couple different designs of these exhaust manifolds too.. the electric choke mounting pad fore and aft or sideways....1949-50 that oval choke machined pad area is running front to rear...1946-48 the choke is turned sideways. There is an adapter plate that takes care of this issue. Make one or find one if you end up needing one.

 

On and on it goes with one of these manifold jobs on a Chrysler straight "8" !

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Price is right... it's in Portland Ore.....The owner has had many 1946-52 Mopars too. Choke mount is correct. No counter weight:wacko:

It needs very careful packing for shipping. 

I had a friend who bought one only to find it broken.... he paid $800.00 for a 47 convert NY'er

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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Well this was my day at my buddy's house......

Lots of penetrating oil and a brass hammer to remove the one side (too big for the BBQ intact) cleaned up the crack and then cooked it!  Got it up to 550F, welded (stick welder with special rods) and put back into the BBQ. Long slow cool down. I had to leave so I don't know how it looks after cooling yet! Will find out tomorrow!

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Awesome nice job!

What kind of welding  rod?  One continuous weld with out stopping?

Did you use heat to expand the end joint to remove the end piece?

We'd like to see the finished product! At the  least...I would!!

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9 hours ago, c49er said:

Awesome nice job!

What kind of welding  rod?  One continuous weld with out stopping?

Did you use heat to expand the end joint to remove the end piece?

We'd like to see the finished product! At the  least...I would!!

From past experience, it will-maybe crack around the weld. Something about the molecules that get moved around. But! why does an engine weld hold?? If done correctly. Maybe the extream heat, expansion, contraction rate?? That is a nice job.

Edited by countrytravler (see edit history)
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On 12/10/2017 at 7:49 PM, c49er said:

Awesome nice job!

What kind of welding  rod?  One continuous weld with out stopping?

Did you use heat to expand the end joint to remove the end piece?

We'd like to see the finished product! At the  least...I would!!

 Sorry guys been a busy few days!

Here is how Peter did the weld

 

Clean the area and grind a bevel into the crack. Drill the ends.  

Pre-heat in the BBQ to 550F (anything between 500 to 800 I'm told will work)

Stick welder. Lay short beads at a time about an inch or so, stop and peen with a small peening hammer,

Ni-rod 55X First pass only, Ni-rod 99X for the rest of the weld. I'ts cast iron so the weld is not super pretty but it seems to have worked, the real test will be how long it lasts!

Cool down in the BBQ to normalize over 5 hours slowly lowering the heat.

 

The end joint came apart with lots of penetrating oil, a brass hammer, some tugging and pulling by hand and a small handheld propane torch plumbers use to do their sodder work.

 

I will swing by there over the weekend to pick it up!

Edited by 48NWYKR (see edit history)
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Like I said it has been a busy few days...... I met a couple of legends in the local car community over the last few days and man oh man WOW!!!! is all I can say! I would rank these old boys up there with Rusty and 49er when it comes to knowledge on these old cars!!!

And PARTS!!!!! OH MY!!!! the garages full of PARTS!!!! I'ts like a time-capsule, the holy grail and a big kids candy store all rolled into one!!! I was and still am doing a happy dance!!!! Mopar and other NOS from the 20's to the 70's and lots more!!

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I would imagine the iron would be impregnated with carbon and other combustion products, not to mention rust after this time. It is in a pretty hostile environment. Welding that lot would be difficult.

 

Just to illustrate, I had an exhaust heat riser butterfly in electrolytic rust removal for a while. It looked to be a good one when I put it in, but it came out with a deep furrow across it where it had cracked and rusted and hard soot etc. had completely hidden the crack. It is unusable.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I would imagine the iron would be impregnated with carbon and other combustion products, not to mention rust after this time. It is in a pretty hostile environment.

EXACTLY! But a plan will be made...If I cant find one I might just make one... might end up with a full custom system by the time I'm done... hell I might even put duel carbs on while I'm at it!! lol.

 

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And here are the pictures of the failed attempt at fixing the exhaust manifold.  Better luck next time right!? The weld looked good...ish...That was until I accidentally bumped into it with the intake manifold and knocked it over on the workbench, I heard a dull thud and when I picked it up it was in two parts... better now than on the car a 100 miles down the road.... You can see that it penetrated the metal in some parts but not in others - oh well, the joys of cast iron.

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