Update on 1941 Saratoga

[1941_Saratoga]

This past summer, I posted a thread asking what might be causing my transmission from slipping out of gear. I got a lot of helpful responses, and after adjusting linkages, changing fluid, etc, it became apparent that it was an internal transmission problem. Luckily, I knew someone in the next state (VT -- I live in MA) that has a lot of experience working on these pre-war Chryslers. So I limped it up to his garage, and four months, a transmission and overdrive rebuild, a complete engine overhaul (reboring the cylinders, resufacing the head, new valves, etc. etc etc) my Chrysler is back in my hands and feels amazing! I can honestly say that I had never truly experienced the way this car was supposed to feel in my first three years of owning it. Here are a couple of before/after pictures of the engine, and there are more shots on my friend, Shaun's, Facebook page (posted with his permission). If you look around his pictures, you'll see that he's had some very impressive old cars in his shop. 

 

Dave

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

Looks nice when clean and painted. What is the logic of leaving the core plugs unpainted? It is my understanding the engines were assembled then all painted at once so the plugs would have been painted.

[Reg Evans]

Very NICE !!!  Back to 137 horses !

Edited November 16, 2016 by Reg Evans (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Nice!

[1941_Saratoga]

Hi Spinneyhill,

 

Funny you should ask that. The original intention was to paint the entire block red, including the freeze plugs. When we got the block back from the machine shop, he had used rebuilders cast paint, meanwhile Shaun had painted the head, valve covers, oil pan, etc red. Essentially, I liked the look of the silver cast against the red, and the brass freeze plugs match the brass radiator top (I had stripped it a couple of years ago when a battery exploded and stripped most of the paint from the radiator). So the short answer is that I just liked the look of it. Purists would probably hate it, but the car isn't original anyway, as I've reproduced all the interior plastic in maple, and the seats had a recover sometime back in the '70's.

 

Dave

[c49er]

I like the color combo!

 And smart to use brass plugs.

[JACK M]

Your buddy has very cool digs.

Have fun with the 41.

[Guest]

Now you are good for several hundred thousand miles.  I sure is nice when you can fix it all at once, and then enjoy the car the way it was designed to be enjoyed.  Happy motoring.

[countrytravler]

Nice work. Can you share what work was done at what cost? What was wrong with the trans for it to slip out of gear? Always nice to see what's out there and the comparisons. I would say that was about a 15k job. Any pictures of the bad parts? 

Here is a 41 Chry that we started on and the customer went in another direction. 

[1941_Saratoga]

Thanks everyone. It really is great to have the car back, and in the 2 weeks I've had it, have already gone for several nice long drives, keeping in mind that it's still a break-in period. Hoping the snow holds off for a while, so I can continue to enjoy it for a bit longer.

 

Countrytravler, let's see...starting from the beginning - new king pins; new e-brake; transmission overhaul with many new (NOS) parts, idler gear, 1st/rev, synchro rings (most likely the cause of slippage); engine rebore (.004 over) rings, valves, springs (etc.), cam overhaul, new timing chain and sprockets; overdrive overhaul; new clutch, rebuilt master brake cylinder...actually going to have to check because I know there's more.  The trickiest part was sourcing the parts (8's are a bit tougher to find parts for than 6's) and keeping them coming in a timely fashion so that the project didn't get bogged down. There was also some detailing work in the engine compartment and frame, and a few small fabricated parts. From the time I dropped the car off, to the time I picked it up, it was 4 months, which I thought was remarkable, considering some of the challenges of sourcing, scheduling the machine shop, etc.

 

I do have lots of pictures of the old and new parts, and lots of detail in the assembly. Shaun was great about sending pictures each night, and we've ended up with a pretty impressive pictorial of the rebuild. Let me talk to Shaun about quoting price (and frankly I haven't totaled it up entirely) but the breakdown of cost ended up being about 40% parts, 40% labor and 20% machine shop.

 

If there are specific pictures of parts you'd like to see, I can post what I have. It's nice for me to be able to contribute a bit instead of just asking questions.

 

Dave

[countrytravler]

Thanks for the comeback.m Love all the knowledge. We're going to be rebuilding a 1950 Ind 8 down the road. Thinking of hooking an air raid siren to it for waking me and the whole neighborhood up.LOL

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[1941_Saratoga]

They might be able to hear that siren in San Francisco!  That rebuilt 8 looks great. Nice to see these engines tight again. 

 

Dave

[c49er]

11 hours ago, 1941_Saratoga said:

Thanks everyone. It really is great to have the car back, and in the 2 weeks I've had it, have already gone for several nice long drives, keeping in mind that it's still a break-in period. Hoping the snow holds off for a while, so I can continue to enjoy it for a bit longer.

 

Countrytravler, let's see...starting from the beginning - new king pins; new e-brake; transmission overhaul with many new (NOS) parts, idler gear, 1st/rev, synchro rings (most likely the cause of slippage); engine rebore (.004 over) rings, valves, springs (etc.), cam overhaul, new timing chain and sprockets; overdrive overhaul; new clutch, rebuilt master brake cylinder...actually going to have to check because I know there's more.  The trickiest part was sourcing the parts (8's are a bit tougher to find parts for than 6's) and keeping them coming in a timely fashion so that the project didn't get bogged down. There was also some detailing work in the engine compartment and frame, and a few small fabricated parts. From the time I dropped the car off, to the time I picked it up, it was 4 months, which I thought was remarkable, considering some of the challenges of sourcing, scheduling the machine shop, etc.

 

I do have lots of pictures of the old and new parts, and lots of detail in the assembly. Shaun was great about sending pictures each night, and we've ended up with a pretty impressive pictorial of the rebuild. Let me talk to Shaun about quoting price (and frankly I haven't totaled it up entirely) but the breakdown of cost ended up being about 40% parts, 40% labor and 20% machine shop.

 

If there are specific pictures of parts you'd like to see, I can post what I have. It's nice for me to be able to contribute a bit instead of just asking questions.

 

Dave

Where did you find the timing chain/ cam and crank gears?

I cannot find any and need two sets for two up coming 1948 and 50 engine rebuilds.

[countrytravler]

Found mine on ebay. Kantner?

[1941_Saratoga]

Yep those gears are like hen's teeth...

 

I got the crankshaft sprocket at Bernbaum (617-244-1118), the chain from Egge and the camshaft gear in a shop south of Boston called Then and Now Automotive (781) 335-8860. I was pretty discouraged after spending a lot of time searching for the pair of sprocket (the chain was easy) and came very close to putting the old set back, but T&N has some hard to find parts sometimes.

 

Dave

[Volucer]

Hello Dave, I am restoring a 1941 Saratoga C30 (3 windows coupe) 8L, my car is located at the north of Italy. I will need some indications regarding parts and some tips regarding the restoration process. Thanks in advance,

Shahar

[1941_Saratoga]

Hi Shahar,

 

I'd love to see some pictures of your car. I'll help as much as my limited experience allows. Fortunately, there are quite a few people in this forum who are well-versed in the pre-war straight 8's and variations of the fluid drive transmissions of that era.

 

Dave

[Spinneyhill]

"Fluid Drive" refers to the clutch, not the transmission. It has a sort of torque converter.

[countrytravler]

Fluid Coupling. A lot of great info on the internet.

 

 

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/012A/cover.htm

 

[Volucer]

Dave, attached a photo of my car as I received it (it can be seen in other thread). But now the body is off and the chassis was striped and is away for painting. The body is within the panel beater who said that it is not so bad (high quality steel). Will post more photos in the weekend. Thanks, ST

[Volucer]

I know that web site, thanks. There are also great videos. ST

[Volucer]

More photos. ST

[1941_Saratoga]

The body looks very solid. How was the motor, did it turn over? 

Dave

[Volucer]

Yes. ST

[Volucer]

I will inspect it soon and keep you informed. ST

[Ron42Dodge]

The fluid drive actually has nothing to do with the clutch or the transmission.  It sits between the engine and the clutch.  It looks like a torque converter.  In a non fluid drive car the flywheel/drive plate and clutch are mounted to the back end of the engine crankshaft.  With a fluid drive the  the fluid drive unit mounts to the crankshaft and then the drive plate and clutch mount to the back end of the fluid drive unit. It replaces the rigid connection from the engine to the drive train with a fluid connection.  That is why the car can come to a complete stop while still in gear.  The front turbine of the fluid drive turns with the engine.  The rear turbine of the fluid drive is rotated by the turning fluid in the fluid drive unit which then rotates the clutch drive plate.  The input shaft from the transmission is driven from the clutch.  The gear selection is either made manually or automatically advanced depending on the type of transmission system.  But if the brakes are applied with the car in gear, the rear turbine slows with the car and can be stopped while the front turbine continues to spin with the engine.  

[countrytravler]

53 minutes ago, Ron42Dodge said:

The fluid drive actually has nothing to do with the clutch or the transmission.  It sits between the engine and the clutch.  It looks like a torque converter.  In a non fluid drive car the flywheel/drive plate and clutch are mounted to the back end of the engine crankshaft.  With a fluid drive the  the fluid drive unit mounts to the crankshaft and then the drive plate and clutch mount to the back end of the fluid drive unit. It replaces the rigid connection from the engine to the drive train with a fluid connection.  That is why the car can come to a complete stop while still in gear.  The front turbine of the fluid drive turns with the engine.  The rear turbine of the fluid drive is rotated by the turning fluid in the fluid drive unit which then rotates the clutch drive plate.  The input shaft from the transmission is driven from the clutch.  The gear selection is either made manually or automatically advanced depending on the type of transmission system.  But if the brakes are applied with the car in gear, the rear turbine slows with the car and can be stopped while the front turbine continues to spin with the engine.  

 

Very well explained.