bodayguy Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I am pondering selling my 64 Rivi next spring. I don't like driving her in the rain (brakes! yeesh!) or at night. Frankly, I probably take her out for a drive twice a month and I'm not sure that is enough, you know? I can probably sell and break even at worst, including what I have spent on maintenance. Do you guys have these regrets? She's such a beautiful car but she's too big for the parking lot at work without me stressing about bumps. Are Sunday drives enough to keep your juices flowing? I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 No regrets. I sure miss my ride because I'm away from her to much. And I miss all the shows and cruises. Plus side is it keeps the miles off her. I'll get mine out more next year. Cant wait. That is one fine ride you own. Great photo depth affect in that pic! I would love to have one like her and I'm sure gobs of others would love to be in your shoes. Keep her up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I'm 2500 miles away from mine, and have been for years. I drive it when I can, fix it when I must. When we get a few days together, I drive it every place I go. Day, night, rain, country roads, or the big city -- doesn't matter. I've driven it through all of that before. The only concession I make is to keep it out of the salt and snow. I've had it for so long, I don't look at it like a classic car or a collector's item; it's more like an high school buddy that you see every so often. And as with that high school buddy, the relationship hasn't changed that much. I ain't selling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Yes - I bought it as a driver while I worked on other projects. This does not help the situation: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Holy cow! What have you done now Bill? As they say some things have to get worse before they get better. To the OP - Driving twice a month is a much higher average than most who own a collector car. But sometimes priorities change and we close one door so another can be opened. Edited November 16, 2016 by JZRIV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I've just about got it back together and was going to update my original progress thread with some pics. I popped the engine to remove the cracked manifolds and put the headers on. The heater box was rusty so this was the perfect opportunity to clean and paint that. Heck, the engine is out so might as well put the new steering box/pump in. Oh and the flex plate was bent and the starter was suspect. On goes the new flex plate and LT1 starter. Well, the starter only has three poles on the solenoid so might as well put in the HEI. New front seal on xmsn too. I had to stop there or it was going to become a full-blown resto... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70rivme Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I end up driving mine anywhere from 0 to 10 times a month just depending on shows, weather, winter storage, testing upgrades or just making sure the posi traction is up to producing some smoke when I mark my territory. Even when I don't get to drive it I enjoy the fact that at the end of the day - I own it. Pretty soon I may end up taking the same route Roadshark has with his Riv. Yank the engine and do some upgrades. I'll keep mine. Edited November 16, 2016 by 70rivme Wrong word (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 6 hours ago, RoadShark said: I've just about got it back together and was going to update my original progress thread with some pics. I popped the engine to remove the cracked manifolds and put the headers on. The heater box was rusty so this was the perfect opportunity to clean and paint that. Heck, the engine is out so might as well put the new steering box/pump in. Oh and the flex plate was bent and the starter was suspect. On goes the new flex plate and LT1 starter. Well, the starter only has three poles on the solenoid so might as well put in the HEI. New front seal on xmsn too. I had to stop there or it was going to become a full-blown resto... Yikes! And I thought 425 manifolds were bullet proof. How many miles on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 43 minutes ago, PWB said: Yikes! And I thought 425 manifolds were bullet proof. How many miles on them? 430. I think they are notorious for cracking. 114k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 San Andreas fault, Batman! Is that why you went with headers? Hard to find replacements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 50 year old cars aren't for everyone. Specially if you didn't grow up along with them. There is little to relate to. A person under 50 had grown up with disc brakes, probably McPherson struts and rack and pinion steering. As well as a car under 3500 pounds. If your expectations are to seamlessly slide from your 2 year old daily driver into the 50 year old without the feel of the five decades you should probably unload it. What you are unhappy about is deeper that the surface things you mention. Computers became a part of my daily work life in 1974.I wouldn't be happy spending a whole day with a Honeywell Selectorgraphic interface on an Alpha Delta 3000 system. But that is not my hobby. I can bank a coal stoker and rake off the ashes on a good sized HRT boiler, not my hobby. So, when it comes to cars it is my hobby; the total experience. Like Tommy, I become part of the machine. And my experience keeps me in tune with those brakes, Dynaflow or turbo, nailhead, flathead, honetcomb radiator or whatever throwback technology I am enjoying. The things you mention in a positive manner are aesthetic. What you don't like is internal and hidden. You have a clash. I can potentially get in the situation you are experiencing. Recently I have developed a desire for a BMW 650i coupe of 2009 to 2012 vintage. I am pretty sure I am going to like looking at one a lot more than using it. The mechanics won't be dated, but they will be expensive, a similar pain. Time will tell. My old cars meet my expectations, but the expectations are my own from experience. I do always drive my 20 year old 5.7 LT1 Chevy with the Nito Invo 17" tires when I go to look at the BMW's, juwt to keep my perspective, so to say. One thing I know for sure, if your Riviera is not up to par the knowledgeable buyer will surely point it out quick and deduct the fix. And you might be better served by offering it for sale and getting a punchlist from smart buyers. Bernie Bernie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 36 minutes ago, PWB said: San Andreas fault, Batman! Is that why you went with headers? Hard to find replacements? Sometimes you gotta upgrade to compensate for what them ijit ingineers did. Real mechanics nos that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Seems to me that owning an older car is a bit like having a kid. It may sound good in the abstract, but the reality is that it's likely a bit more than you anticipated. If you just want a toy that you fire up every couple of weeks then forget about, that car may not be for you. It's the difference between sending your nieces and nephews home at the end of the day and being responsible for diapers, discipline, and college tuition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodayguy Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 You made me think Bernie! Well said. It's true, this car is much older than me and I didn't buy it for nostalgia reasons. I do admire the design of the car and I don't think that's a bad thing. We will need younger folks to like 50s and 60s cars too or they will all rust away while everyone moves on to the next "childhood dream" car for each generation. I am a graphic designer and I am really pulled to what Bill Mitchell's team created. I think the first-gen Rivieras are an important car in the history of automotive design, helping mark an American transition from the rocketeering/chrome look to clean lines/modern look. But that's just my 2 cents. These cars are also a great value and a great entry point to owning a classic. I'd love to have a garage of my toys, but I don't have the $$ haha! We will see. For one thing, I think you all have amazing taste! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 11 hours ago, PWB said: San Andreas fault, Batman! Is that why you went with headers? Hard to find replacements? One side is '67 only. I'm not spending time to find and pay for a used set that will then need to go to the machine shop to be surfaced. In reality the heads should be surfaced at that time too. Then, if the real root cause is a residual stress problem, it's going to happen anyway. So - the TA headers are expensive, but they are well made and the used manifold route gets expensive too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) Altruistic motives do not make good motives for owning a collector car. Don't worry about saving one for posterity. A whole bunch have already beat you to it. I own my '64 Riviera for both the aesthetics and the durability of the hardware. When they came out I brought the brochure home in my bicycle basket. When I bought the car I still had the brochure. I also believe it is one of the significant car designs of the century. I have also seen its shape mirrored in a few other cars with advanced technology that may be more compatible for you or someone who likes the style but desires a more drivable and familiar technical side. Over the years a few have struck me as very similar with a few concessions. I was pleasantly surprised with the proportions of the RWD 1977 and 1978 Rivieras. The bumpers and grille take a little away from the original, but I thought it was a nice shadow or the original. With the right color combination they can be very attractive and the driving can be similar to a car of the early 2000's. The Mercedes SEC models are a true four window hardtop and carry the clean lines. They are quite durable and, although sometimes expensive to fix, a good one would not require the extent of reworking a 50 year old car does. A 1990's Bentley Continental catches the first generation Riviera style nearly as well as the first generation Riviera captured the Bentley style of the time. I could put one of those in my garage. One of the pleasures of a '64 Riviera is waxing it by hand. I am sure the three options above have curves and lines just as nice to buff up And then there is the style of the BMW 650 I mentioned. But then, I am a guy who is at tracked to women whom look like my Wife and I am not even an artist. Bernie Edited November 17, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kaber Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I have two old cars myself. My son owns the Riviera. In the summer, I park my daily driver on Friday night and drive my old cars all weekend every weekend, weather permitting. They get wet, but I do try to limit their ex poser to the elements. I used to drive them much less than 1000 miles a year each. Now I find my self driving each of them well over 3000 miles each summer. It beats the hell out of watching them sit in the garage! As for the Riv, my son is a busy guy, going to college and working internships in the summer. He doesn't get a chance to drive the Riv as often as he would like. I feel sorry for it sometimes...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jframe Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Driving my beauty to work tomorrow. Wanted a 65 since I was a kid, and I'll be damned if I'm going to wait 40 years to finally have one, and watch it sit in my carport. LOVE the way this car rides and drives, even though it makes a few funny noises that most modern cars don't make, lol. All part of the charm! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarredKnightfan Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 On November 15, 2016 at 7:00 PM, bodayguy said: Are Sunday drives enough to keep your juices flowing? While I never owned a Riviera, back when I had a family of cars to drive on the weekends, those weekend drives were enough for me. Now that those cars are gone, hindsight 20/20 tells me it wasn't enough, in some ways, but plenty in others. While I was forced to sell due to losing my full-time job just after my 4th open heart surgery, I sometimes wonder how much longer I would've kept them anyway. Some summers I just didn't drive them much. Then, 1 season, I drove each of them (5 in total) over 1,000 miles each ... that was a good summer! Regrets? Sure, I have some, but nothing that keeps me up at night ... if that makes sense! Cort, www.oldcarsstronghearts.com pig&cowValves.paceMaker * 1979 CC to 2003 MGM + 81mc "I just turned around & there's nobody there" | Heart | 'Stranded' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I think you're doing really good if you can break even on a sale. I seem to be on the losing side of anything I sell. I'm at the opposite perspective. I just bought my Riv, and haven't had a chance to drive it yet. Sitting is really hard on a car, especially here in the desert. Rubber ages quickly from the heat. I'm currently repairing 10 years of sitting. Mine is going to be a daily driver, for good or bad both. I currently drive a 67 Ford daily, so I'm comfortable and familiar with old technology. It is a different experience than the modern cars, but arguably not worse. Just different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 What holds me back this time of year is fear of hitting a deer ( here in New Jersey). They seem to wait for a car to come, then jump in front of it. I'm real careful and have hit 2 in three years- no damage to the Ford Explorer other than a loose side view mirror and a loose fog light. But I would probably pass out if I ever hit one with the Riv. Must be in the garage safe and sound by 3 or 4 pm this time of year. Road Shark- are you replacing the rear seal while you have the engine out? If I ever had to pull my engine I'd paint the engine compartment ( or have a pro do it) to look like a real show car. Which header cracked- passenger side or driver? Is this something I should watch for? My 67 has about 72,000 miles, original as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 That crack image be from starboard, aft, matey. [Passenger side] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dei Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 On 15/11/2016 at 8:00 PM, bodayguy said: Do you guys have these regrets? She's such a beautiful car but she's too big for the parking lot at work without me stressing about bumps. Are Sunday drives enough to keep your juices flowing? I'm not sure. I'm mixed about this. On the one hand I would like to drive it more, attend weekly car shows and swap meets with it but life demands just don't allow that. Then, with the fact it is of low mileage, driving it more takes away the low mileage part and as you suggest, parking is a worry. I would caution you to not do like me and aquire too many cars! Every one of mine needs something which adds up quick so having only one to ponder is not a bad thing. Somewhere there is a balance otherwise I would not have what I do? By the way, LOVE YOUR RIV! KEEP IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I was out for a walk alone the Erie Canal on Saturday morning and someone across the water fired what was obviously a generous hand loaded shot at a deer in a field nearby. It's deer season here and they will be running. I will have to switch to my deer season driving technique. That's where I pace my driving so I always have a "deer car" about 200 feet ahead of me to take the hit. That differs from my summer driving where I trail someone who is speeding by 300 to 500 feet. They get the other hit. Sometimes I have to slow down to get them to pass me. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5517 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Funny you say that Bernie- I try to do the same thing. Once, with my 76 Eldo convertible with the top down, I was pulling out of a restaurant parking lot- around11pm. A tractor trailer was coming along; I had enough distance to pull in front of him and not make him hit his brakes but decided to let him pass. After I pulled out, I saw him stopped ; sure enough, maybe 50-60 yds later, he had hit a deer. It would have been me had I pulled out first. Would have looked like the movie ' Tommy Boy" with an extra passenger in the front seat. What a mess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickBoss Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 My short answer to your question is that it does bother me not to get to drive my car often. I can't drive mine for reasons that are different than most here i'd wager. I live in NYC and its just kind of impractical to take it out for a spin once a week because its a bit of a walk to the garage i park it at. What's worse is that I'm constantly having to deal with small issues do to the lack of driving it and not having a place to work on it. So this occasionally means repairs and towing which again in NYC is expensive and a pain in the ass. To make matters worse its very expensive to park as you might imagine. A lot of the time i feel like giving up and letting it go... BUT, i do have this to say. I've owned classics before like a 79 plymouth and 67 firebird, and after i sold them I felt little remorse. With my 77 Riviera its totally different. It's classic in a different way. I feel "complete" driving it and I never want whatever road I'm on to end. This feeling is so strong that I feel like I need to move to a more reasonable part of the country where I can drive my Buick daily and keep it running perfect. I guess the only thing preventing me from doing so is that I haven't found a woman to settle down with but that's another story all together haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 You have to ask yourself a few questions, be honest with yourself, and go from there. First, do I need the money? Lots of classics have been sold because someone needed the money for something else. Bought more than a few because of this. Second, do I need the room? Is it always in the way, or is it in the garage and the wife's car sits outside in the snow and ice, and she is having a problem with that. Third, do I enjoy driving it when I do get to? This one is self explanatory, but if you are a nervous wreck every time you take it out, maybe you need to collect stamps. If you don't need the money for something else, have the room, and still enjoy driving it when you can, keep it and do just that. Enjoy driving it when you can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jframe Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Living in Alabama is also a big help. I have a carport at home, and it sits there most of the time, so I can drive it whenever. Virtually no snow, so no salt. If it turns off really bad and wet, I keep it in a garage at my Dad's til it clears up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 On November 20, 2016 at 11:41 PM, rocky5517 said: Road Shark- are you replacing the rear seal while you have the engine out? If I ever had to pull my engine I'd paint the engine compartment ( or have a pro do it) to look like a real show car. Which header cracked- passenger side or driver? Is this something I should watch for? My 67 has about 72,000 miles, original as far as I can tell. Sorry - I was on vacation for a while. No - the rear seal only leaks a little. Time is the issue. I have two other projects I'm working on. I just wanted to get the Riv to driving status, finish the other two, and then give the Riv some real attention. If I take the oil pan off, I'll just start in on a full rebuild. Not having an old car or truck to drive around is bumming me out. First time since I was 16. Both sides cracked. Both sides had gaskets. Some people here said that Buick did not use gaskets from the factory. If true, then someone before me added them and this may be the cause of the cracks.. The bolts didn't look like they had been disturbed so I don't know what to think. Here's the driver's: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 No gaskets from factory is correct. I have a tech article coming up in a future Riview on this topic. Maybe Jan issue, not sure. The gasket/ no gasket subject still confuses people 50 years later as it did very early on. It doesn't help that for decades aftermarket engine gasket kits include exhaust manifold gaskets. People assume they should be installed or that the factory forgot to put them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 If those manifolds had not been "disturbed" there would still be the French locks on the bolts. Not using gaskets allows the exhaust manifold to act as a heat sink and pull heat from the head. Using a gasket traps the heat in the head. Simple logic from Buick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) Hmmm - would a metallic gasket help? It seems more manifolds crack in the Northern realms. Is this a Winter phenomenon? Cold VS Heat too rapid? Edited November 23, 2016 by PWB typo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 No gaskets on any of mine. I did notice the lack of the locks. as well. I just snug mine up every few years. I think one of the cars doesn't have them on one side. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivdrivn Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 My mechanic friend told me that cars of that era did not come with gaskets but that with the ravages of time they become necessary. He's a chevy guy, so I'm not sure if any of it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 22 hours ago, PWB said: Hmmm - would a metallic gasket help? It seems more manifolds crack in the Northern realms. Is this a Winter phenomenon? Cold VS Heat too rapid? Paul, Good thinking, you are on the right track. Diesel engines I have worked on use a two piece metal gasket. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 10 hours ago, Rivdrivn said: My mechanic friend told me that cars of that era did not come with gaskets but that with the ravages of time they become necessary. He's a chevy guy, so I'm not sure if any of it's true. Steve, This is correct. Not only can the gasket "plane" become misaligned due to warpage but the actual machined surface corrodes/errodes away. The quick solution is a gasket. I have personally never had a problem with gaskets but this seems to be an issue folks like to debate. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 I would put gaskets on mine if they didn't work without them. Many mechanical problems I have seen could be tracked down to an older mechanic who says "mit" instead of "with"; just something I have observed. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 (edited) In addition to the thermal break issue, I think the gaskets also act like glue and inhibit the ability of the manifold to slip at the head/manifold interface. As I just recounted in a reply on the Buick General area, I found that I couldn't install the outer end bolts on my '89 C1500 after removing the manifold to replace the exhaust flange studs. The outer/end manifold holes were about a half a hole 'short' at ambient temperature. With the center bolts installed, i started the engine and let it idle for a few minutes, after which I was able to re-install all of the manifold bolts. So, the manifolds are growing and shrinking considerably with every engine on/off cycle. Gaskets would interfere with the movement and the result is the tension is relieved at the manifold casting's weakest point... Edited November 24, 2016 by EmTee typo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 (edited) Watch out EmTee - your Southern Belle aint used to those frigid temps! One time I started my '77 on a frigid Massachusetts morn' - and CRACK the dash pad split down the middle. And my '87 S-10 was all fine 'til another frigid New York morn' - CRACK went my exhaust manifold. Loudly. Edited November 24, 2016 by PWB (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, PWB said: Watch out EmTee - your Southern Belle aint used to those frigid temps! One time I started my '77 on a frigid Massachusetts morn' - and CRACK the dash pad split down the middle. And my '87 S-10 was all fine 'til another frigid New York morn' - CRACK went my exhaust manifold. Loudly. So noted! Maybe I need to preheat them with a couple of heat lamps...? A lot of the snow from the storm earlier this week has melted, but opportunities to drive either of my gals will certainly be few and far between until spring. Last winter (milder than usual) I was able to get the GP out for some exercise about once a month when the roads were clear, cold and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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