ollinger123 Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Hello I have a 1923 Dort Touring with a Falls Engine. A few months ago I submitted I question on why my car won't run without the choke pulled 1/4 way out. The responses let me to fix some vacuum issues, which seemed to help. The problem I'm having now is burning oil (white smoke) from the exhaust. This may be unrelated, but I never had this problem before fixing the vacuum issue. Thank you for any advice you may have. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72caddy Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Typically, white smoke is water vapor and blue smoke is oil. Not to double-guess you but have you seen the oil level decrease over time, or the water level in the radiator? If it is water, you probably have a bad head gasket. If it is only at startup then it may just be condensation in the exhaust. If it is consistent then you need to address it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 I would start with a compression test of the engine. If you post the results here, we can help you understand what might be going on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 If you have a blown head gasket you might see bubbles in the radiator when the engine is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Larry Schramm said: I would start with a compression test of the engine. If you post the results here, we can help you understand what might be going on. I agree, BUT! I used to Comp-Test as a matter of course. Then I got a 'leak-down' tester, which gets to the answer in far less time because it can tell WHY there is a loss of compression at the same time as THAT there is one. In terms of hair pulling it has proven to be one of the better tool expenses I have made over recent years. I also agree with 72Caddy that there are clues there that we haven't seen but need to in order to give our best advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 You may try just re- torquing the head first, simple & cheap, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 Thanks for the advice, I'll report back on what I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 16 hours ago, 28 Chrysler said: You may try just re- torquing the head first, simple & cheap, What do you recommend the torque to be set at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Before you re-torque, I would do a compression test. Then re-torque to see if there is a difference before and after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 It should be around 60 - 65 range , it depends on the size of the bolt / stud. Someone else may know a bit more about your specific engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Another general comment re' your "white smoke", which term could have differing interpretations... Oil smoke will linger; you can watch it drift down your driveway and down the block, it dilutes in the air rather than disappears, joining the smog level, and while bluish can often look whitish. ... Every engine shows whitish condensation when started on chilly mornings; it's the same as seeing your breath on a cold morning...this should dissipate/disappear very guickly as the condensed water reabsorbs into the air. This should disappear as soon as the engine/exhaust system is warmed, unless you're driving in a very cold climate.. If you see this whitish condensation when the system is warmed, or on warm starts, that's usually small amounts of water getting into a or the cylinders, as noted above...unless your Dort is a daily driver, water/oil loss would be quite slow...large enough leaks/oil burning would foul plugs/misfire cylinders... I don't know if oil smoke/blowby dumped out the atmospheric tube would come up into an open car; on a closed car it would, particularly if working engine, like pulling a hill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 - Compression test ranged from 54-60 lbs. - The smoke that comes out of the exhaust looks white and does not dissipate quickly - it lingers. - Did not notice any bubling in the radiator, but a lot of coolant eventually leaked from the bottom of the block by the front of the pan after the engine cooled. - Also, I now do not have any oil pressure on the gauge. Looking forward to your responses to help me figure this one out. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsbrassnut Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Another suggestion to check. Does your Dort use a vacuum tank to suck the fuel from a rear tank then drain to the carburater? I friend had a problem last summer with white and sometimes wet clear vapour coming out the tail pipe when the engine was running. He described it as gas coming out the tail pipe. I didn't believe it a first, then when I saw it and looked closer it really was gas. You could collect it on your hand and smell it. In his case his car had an earlier style Stewart vacuum tank which doe not have a back seat. The vacuum valve seat inside the top of the tank came loose and the engine vacuum would not shut off so the tank filled completely with gas and then sucked gas into the intake manifold and blew most of it out the tail pipe. Disconnecting the vacuum line from the vacuum tank and plugging it temporarily for a test. If the engine runs with no white vapour, then the problem is likely leaks in the vacuum tank valves. His tank leaked bad enough and long enough that gas started to get by the rings and into the crankcase oil. Just a suggestion. NSBrassNut Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsbrassnut Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 My friend also saw his oil pressure disappear due to gas getting by the rings and into the oil when the gas was sucked from the vacuum tank When the oil pressure drops, stop the engine before its damaged. Check how much gas is being used. If the gas consumption appears high, its another sign its being sucked into the engine. Good Luck NSBrassNut Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 On 11/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, Larry Schramm said: I would start with a compression test of the engine. If you post the results here, we can help you understand what might be going on. Compression test ranged from 54-60 lbs. - The smoke that comes out of the exhaust looks white and does not dissipate quickly - it lingers. - Did not notice any bubling in the radiator, but a lot of coolant eventually leaked from the bottom of the block by the front of the pan after the engine cooled. - Also, I now do not have any oil pressure on the gauge. On 11/13/2016 at 3:34 PM, nsbrassnut said: Another suggestion to check. Does your Dort use a vacuum tank to suck the fuel from a rear tank then drain to the carburater? I friend had a problem last summer with white and sometimes wet clear vapour coming out the tail pipe when the engine was running. He described it as gas coming out the tail pipe. I didn't believe it a first, then when I saw it and looked closer it really was gas. You could collect it on your hand and smell it. In his case his car had an earlier style Stewart vacuum tank which doe not have a back seat. The vacuum valve seat inside the top of the tank came loose and the engine vacuum would not shut off so the tank filled completely with gas and then sucked gas into the intake manifold and blew most of it out the tail pipe. Disconnecting the vacuum line from the vacuum tank and plugging it temporarily for a test. If the engine runs with no white vapour, then the problem is likely leaks in the vacuum tank valves. His tank leaked bad enough and long enough that gas started to get by the rings and into the crankcase oil. Just a suggestion. NSBrassNut Canada On 11/12/2016 at 1:15 PM, Grumpy's Auto Shop said: I agree, BUT! I used to Comp-Test as a matter of course. Then I got a 'leak-down' tester, which gets to the answer in far less time because it can tell WHY there is a loss of compression at the same time as THAT there is one. In terms of hair pulling it has proven to be one of the better tool expenses I have made over recent years. I also agree with 72Caddy that there are clues there that we haven't seen but need to in order to give our best advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Compressions indicate no head gasket problem. Water leakage on cooling might indicate a crack somewhere. Is there a leaking water pump on the front of the engine? How about some good in-focus pictures of the front of the engine. How much oil is in the sump? Has it increased (e.g. due to water or fuel getting into it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, ollinger123 said: Compression test ranged from 54-60 lbs. - The smoke that comes out of the exhaust looks white and does not dissipate quickly - it lingers. - Did not notice any bubling in the radiator, but a lot of coolant eventually leaked from the bottom of the block by the front of the pan after the engine cooled. - Also, I now do not have any oil pressure on the gauge. First thing with that is to verify the gauge's functionality. It may be channeling an attorney or politician (ie. it's LYING) Edited November 16, 2016 by Grumpy's Auto Shop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 The oil gauge should be working fine, it had plenty of pressure before the issue. Their is no noticeable signs of leaking from the block, and there is no water pump on this type of engine. I think water is somehow getting into the oil pan and then leaking out the front where the seal may be bad. The question is, how is water getting into the pan? Could it still be from a failed head gasket around one of the water passages? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) Is the oil foamy and cloudy on the dip stick? That would indicate water in the pan. You might even see signs of water at the bottom of the dip stick. Edited November 18, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 You've got what appears to be three serious problems here, probably (but not necessarily) connected (1) Your original what appears to be oil smoke..Falls are OHV?? oil getting into one or more cyl;s thru valve stems; oil drain holes down into block dirty, oil pooling in top, leaking down valve stems ???---normal wear if just begun and not billows of smoke (2) "...a lot of coolant leaking from bottom of block.." With no front water pump, I assume it's leaking from the crankshaft seal (any other attachments to front of block??) ---I'm also assuming it has a front crankshaft pulley driving a fan thru a flat belt (I'm not familiar with Falls). But to have "lots of coolant" leaking out the front crankshaft seal you'd have to have enough water in there to turn your engine oil into chocolate syrup, and it should've been leaking oil for some time... (2) "...no oil pressure..."...death on engines... Drain the oil to see what it looks like and see if waters in there; leave the plug out; clean the front of the block, and fill the radiator to see if any water leaking out when cold or if dribbles out of pan plug.; If a front leak, get under it with a good light (and mirrors if necessary) to see exactly where it's coming from...if water dribbles out of pan plug hole, that sounds like dismantling, but something might appear by dropping pan... and let us know what you find (dying of curiosity!!)...(also, I have no idea where you'd look for Falls parts, so proceed carefully). It'll probably turn out to something we should've all thought of already.... Yes, 1930 catalog shows Falls T-800 as OHV... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 OOPS---Falls T-8000, not T-800. And what were those vacuum issues and how did your correct those??? Fixing the vacuum issues created vacuum inside engine that began sucking oil into cylinders??? Or creating pressure inside engine that pushed oil past rings??? ( pressure not possible unless has no blowby exhaust tube to atmosphere, or if has one has become plugged??)... Fascinating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 The vacuum issue was solved by plugging a leak that lead from the carb to the vacuum tank - right after this the smoke issue occurred. So, I then un-fixed the vacuum issue, but the smoke was still their. I haven't drained the oil, but I assume there is water in the pan. If this is the case wouldn't this be a head gasket issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Yes, water in oil/oil pan could be head gasket leak, sleeve/sleeve seals leak if sleeved, cracks, ad nauseum. Basic question that should've been asked: d'you know.or have access to any other owners with this Falls engine?? If so, talked too them??? (Every engine design has its own little idiosyncrasies; and another Falls owner might listen to this and say "oh, yeah, that's X, they did that...". How regular/much use before original vacuum leak (daily runner?? weekly?? how many hours?? sitting awhile?? try to be precise...SAME for after vac leak fix and how quickly oil smoke appeared. HOW MANY MILES ON CLOCK?? Before vacuum leak, and after vacuum leak fixed, was engine smooth rummer?? purr along idling, pulling?? no fits, jerks, intermittent or regular missing/weak cylinder ?? (firing but weak cyl usually shows by repeated, regular/rythmic slight irregularity)... Did you pull plugs---are you familiar enough to read? or compare to manual pix to read?? If not, Google spark plug analysis to compare...good first start for diagnosis...CAREFULLY CLEAN around plugs before pulling; you don't want little pieces of crud inside that engine...IF IN FOR LONG TIME, spray WD40/similar around base after cleaning around base, let sit several hours and TEASE out---if heavily deposited/corroded inside engine, you don't want to strip threads...if after out, looks like deposits/corrosion could've fallen off inside engine, you'll have to consider vacuuming out or pulling head to clean inside... Gaskets are no problem, except can be pricey---olsonsgaskets might have NOS/NORS, both they/gasketstogo (sponsor on smokstak forum) can make from old one; old ones can sometimes be reused on these low-comp engines, various other reliable gasket outfits on Google... End of tail pipe color: light=good, but usually has to have extended driving to maintain; some blackish normal, especially if only on occasional short drives; powdery dry black=running too rich (running too rich often produces black exhaust, especially on startup, should also dry-blacken plugs); heavy black/wet black=oil burning and/or too much fuel going thru system...numerous possible causes... OIL: on dipstick--smell of gasoline=gas dilution. Clean, like just out of can?? normal dark, like about time for change? ANYTHING OTHER THAN "NORMAL" OIL?? little lumps/bubbles of anything?? little different colored swirls?? varicolored chocolate syrup?? (latter indicate water in oil) Unfortunately little bits of water/rust on dipstick could just be normal interior condensation, especially if car subject to outside air temp variations... I'm troubled by the front water leak---you said "eventually leaked...after engine cooled.." ..how long was "eventually" and how long between start and end of leaking, if known, and is there anyplace--anyplace-- water could've come from (aside from crack somewhere) and drained off front area---water jackets, water connections, anything?? That said; my apologies if any/all of the above already known/done; long distance diagnosis, without knowing skill/experience level of owner and physical ability of owner, complicated (for myself, I'm 85, and I don't wiggle under cars anymore)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 On 11/12/2016 at 9:46 AM, ollinger123 said: Hello I have a 1923 Dort Touring with a Falls Engine. A few months ago I submitted I question on why my car won't run without the choke pulled 1/4 way out. The responses let me to fix some vacuum issues, which seemed to help. The problem I'm having now is burning oil (white smoke) from the exhaust. This may be unrelated, but I never had this problem before fixing the vacuum issue. Thank you for any advice you may have. Jon Where are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollinger123 Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 I drained oil, and yes there is water mixed in it. To answer Bud's question, the engine ran fairly smooth before this issue, but only with choke partially pulled (vacuum issue). It was not a regular runner, just around the farm and only a few times on the road. My assumption at this point is that the cylinder head needs to be removed and is most likely a blown cylinder head. This seems to be the most likely way water can enter the engine. Is there any recommendations on gasket material to make a new one? Located in West Bend, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 0123:--- search archives here for Falls or Sambarn---Sambarn is member here who was researching Falls motors, started a Falls engine thread on 4-22-14...that thread contains comments re' other cars reportedly using Falls engines AND comments re' various Falls 6s (including my comments, that I'd forgotten)... I'd suggest you contact Sambarn and see what he might know about your engine (idiosyncrasies, parts sources, if any, etc) before doing any work... Will comment again in AM...with sympathy, Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Pulling the head may just be the start---if water in the oil's formed enough globs it might've blocked the screen for your oil pump pickup or sucked globs into the pump and/or blocked some oil passages, which might account for sudden loss of oil pressure...you'll want to listen to other opinions on this, of course, but, for myself, I'd drop the pan to look for anything that'd explain oil pressure loss and/or effects of the water, and what cleaning etc might be required... "...water mixed in it..."---how much?? was pan literally full of water?? I'm still bothered by exterior water leak...I can see oil leak at front crankshaft seal (not unusual), or sludge (mixed oil/water) leak (unusual without longtime oil leak)) but plain water/coolant leak there is new one on me (I hasten to add that I was never more than an amateur shade-tree mechanic in my knuckle-skinning days)... I don't know how to interpret head gasket question---does it mean you're a highly experienced sophisticated engine guy who makes his own head gaskets (no simple feat unless you use solid copper or similar, and not simple then)---or that you're not aware the head gasket is a sandwich construction, not a single sheet gasket ;like a water outlet connection??? Pan gasket will probably be cork; both might be reusable if you're careful, and lucky, in removal. Pan, of course, has no pressure, so gasket in pieces can often be reused with NON-HARDENING Permatex or present-day similar. Do make special effort to contact Sambarn; if the gods love you, he'll know of others that have experience with your engine. OH---your engine---I said T-8000, when I should've said "listed as T-8000 in 2-3 of my old parts catalogs"... A 1930 McCord gasket catalog lists one 6cyl (8 variations, which could be works designations for engines to different builders??) as 1917-22, used by thirteen makes, and the T-8000, used by seven makes, including Dort, as 1923-25...that same year-division is continued in a 38 Victor gasket catalog---so: verification as to years, or just copied by Victor? Double OH--one catalog says the Dort has a DT-8000, and I have no idea if that's a variation...these old catalogs are NOT reliable reference works, which doesn't kelp in these situations... with sympathy, Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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