Jay Y

1911 Empire Motor Car

Recommended Posts

Looking for 1910-1911 Empire Model 20 Roadster engine block or complete engine . If anyone has such components or know about where same could be found kindly advise .

Thank you for the opportunity to join this great Forum. Jay

 

Empire-4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one lives here in NZ. I think it is 1911 but is obviously not a T head   -   maybe it is a bit later   -  

IMG_3382.JPG

IMG_3384.JPG

Edited by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jay, you have a hard row to hoe.  My father owned the only Model A Empire (1910), and he went to Hershey from 1955 until his death and I've been going since and the only part we ever found for any Empire was a hub cap.

IMG_0193.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Std Cat doesn't say anything about Empire building their own mechanical parts; if so, looking for an Empire engine is looking for the needle instead of the sewing kit...

If the 1911 used a vendor engine, you need to ID that engine,  which was almost certainly used in other period cars, perhaps for a 10 year or so period...

Check the AACA library for old published specs in trade magazines or articles describing their introduction etc, which MIGHT ID the engine maker, and, if you're fortunate, the engine model...

Old Dykes or similar pub's could also have specs...

There  MIGHT have been an engine change or modification 191o-11...a 1917 ring catalog lists the 1910 Empire "C" with 4 rings per piston, while  the 1911 "C" shows 3 per piston... both have 31/2 bore, but there're no 1910-11 engines listed under that size (that catalog is weak on that early)...

While these assembled car makers often built bodies, all running gear was usually from outside vendors who sold to many makers.

With sympathy,   Bud..

(I'm assuming Mark is looking into what engine the one near him has)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bud,

    The one near me is a runner with an original chain drive electric starter.  The owner's widow has not yet sold or even shown any of the cars after her husband (my friend) passed.  She installed an electric gate to protect the car collection and only communicates with a handful of her friends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't say as I blame her...let people too close and irreplaceable little bits begin to disappear, to say nothing of scratches and cigarette burns...so near, and yet so far...

Interesting puzzle---cursory Googling doesn't mention Allison designing any auto engines...Stutz designed, put in his transaxle, did he design the engine, have it built???..(sounds unlklely, per the accounts of originally miserable performance) .he used a larger T-head Wisc in his own car, same time period, but I don't have any 31/2x4 on my Wisc list....a 1917 ring catalog lists over 20 Wisc's and variations from 1911, but no 31/2...

Edited by Bud Tierney
addition (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The late Bill Cuthbert wrote an article about Empires in the Jan-Feb 2013 issue of the Horseless Carriage Gazette.  He said the 1909s, 1910s and 1911s had T-head engines, but he didn't say whose.  The HCCA roster lists 1911 Empires owned by Tom Fuller in Georgia and John Stanley in Australia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are five Empires listed in the HCCA directory.   Two are 1911 & three are 1913 like the one near me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless one of the owners has found some engine ID info somewhere (perhaps buried in some old publication) or there's something on the engines themselves,  engine builder may remain another automotive mystery...

At  that period everyone and their  uncles were producing inline 4s of all kinds...separate cyls, pairs, en bloc, ad nauseum...at least some marine engine builders were advertising auto use as well, presumably trying to penetrate a possible new market...

While marine is not my thing, my general impression is that marine multi-cylinder (4 and up) was well ahead of auto/truck  use; if incorrect, please feel free to enlighten  me...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for all the information supplied thus far, I do realize it may be more complicated than I thought to locate an engine for this Empire Roadster . I will investigate further as regard to any markings, numbers or other on the current engine and will try to post pictures here. Unfortunately the engine blocked is cracked and cannot be repaired it seems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would have to be very badly broken and major pieces missing to not be repairable... I had presumed you had no engine at all.

The technology for repairing broken castings is far better than it was even 20 years ago so, if you have any kind of block, you definitely need to get a 2nd or even 3rd opinion, preferably from someone who is a real pro at casting repair.  In a worse case scenario, you could get it furnace welded and brazed and then re-machined. There is no doubt it would be expensive but probably a lot less so than finding an engine - if that can even be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There're still lots of possible leads to ID...when you need something like this, you have to be your own detective...

(1)--the clearest pix of the engine: top, both sides  with all accessories attached (starter, gem, carg, manifolds)---if out of car front and back  (hopefully it's not dismantled) posted not only here but on other old-car old-engine sites......

(2)--any and all numbers/letters/symbols on any part of the engine cast, stamped, embossed, whatever, posted as above...

(3)-- any info on any tag on the carb, gen,  starter or anything else attached...

(4)--HCCA has a registry---join, contact other owners thru club; contact editor of club magazine, find out who has Bill Cuthberts old notes/research; see if clubs collection of period trade publications indexed or have indexes and if online to search...you're looking for editions that published new car specs for 1910-11-12, etc, which sometimes includes maker of motor and the model of the motor...

(5)---same with this sites library and archives...

(6)--there's a site in French re' the Kokomo Museum Empire which has Empire production numbers---maybe the Museum has early engine info...those low production numbers make it highly unlikely they had an engine built to their specs

(7)---there're a number of very good books, histories of the cars of the period, that list m'f'r's, models, and sometimes ID engine maker; if you're close to a decent pub library see a librarian...

All that said, JVP's advice above is excellent; almost anything can be put back together, and while it'll probably be expensive, finding a good 1910-11 or so engine, even if it was a popular model from one of the mainline m'f'r's of he time, may not be possible, as JVP stated...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are we all on the same page here???

The ad in Jay's original post says T-head--the carfolio specs that come up under CarbKings "The Motor" link say Side Valves, which they define as flathead, L-block or L-head...(the engine specs match the 31/2x4 in the ad and in classiccardatabase specs)...

JAY: does your engine have valves on BOTH sides, usually driven by TWO camshafts, one on EACH SIDE of the lower part of the engine??  Or does your engine have the valves ALL ON ONE SIDE, driven by one cam?? Or does it look like NZC's pix above???

Technically, a T-head is a "side valve", but that's not the usual terminology...

CARBKING: does your link mean carfolios specs come from The Motor magazine??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jay,

 

As to Bud's points above, some photos of what you've got would REALLY be helpful in helping you. It's kind of hard to help when someone doesn't offer up all the facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will get back to you with additional information and pictures hopefully in a couple of days . Thank you for your kind assistance . 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This magnificent little 1911 "Speedster" is on the current cover of "BRASS NOTES" the Veteran Car Club of Australia (Victoria Branch) News-letter.

Stay tuned for up-dates on the web-site of the recent run this was on. (www.veterancarclub.org.au)

Jay Y, Please let me know if you would like the contact details for the owner (in Australia) he may be able to help, if you don't know him already.

 Kind Regards,

Peter

photos1_090.JPG

photos1_092.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Sigh)...Perhaps someone from AU will be kind enough to advise whether

(A) that little beauty has a T-head or side valve engine, and

(B) either way, if engine maker and/or engine model designation has ever been determined???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:27 AM, nzcarnerd said:

This one lives here in NZ. I think it is 1911 but is obviously not a T head   -   maybe it is a bit later   -  

IMG_3382.JPG

IMG_3384.JPG

I have recently found that this car is actually 1913.

Edited by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now