BUICK NUMBER 3 in quality

[smithbrother]

deleted by Dale in Indy

Edited October 25, 2016 by smithbrother
Sorry I POSTED. (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161024/RETAIL/161029945/buick-becomes-first-u-s-brand-to-crack-top-3-reliability-rankings-by

[RivNut]

Interesting considering g the two newest models are built in Poland and  China.  Especially as much bad mouthing as I seem to read about "Chinese junk" on this forum.

Edited October 25, 2016 by RivNut (see edit history)

[smithbrother]

I'm in FAVOR of as much USA stuff as anyone, but personally I have found Chinese quality GOOD, could be what I am buying. 

 

Workers DON'T build cars/stuff, INSPECTORS do.  Needless to say if INSPECTORS demand QUALITY, workers will produce. 

 

Now don't anyone say I'm PICKING on workers, I'm not. 

 

Of course automation has a lot to do with quality. 

 

Dale in Indy

[Larry Schramm]

"I'm in FAVOR of as much USA stuff as anyone, but personally I have found Chinese quality GOOD, could be what I am buying. 

Workers DON'T build cars/stuff, INSPECTORS do.  Needless to say if INSPECTORS demand QUALITY, workers will produce. 

Now don't anyone say I'm PICKING on workers, I'm not. 

Of course automation has a lot to do with quality. 

 

Dale in Indy"

 

I totally disagree. 

 

Quality is designed into the product.  It must be designed to be durable to the customers requirements and easy to build.  If it has too many pieces that are of critical dimensions and hard to assemble it will be a poor quality product regardless of the number of inspectors. 

 

Basic Edward Deming philosophy of quality.  Quality is built in, not inspected in.

 

When I was designing a product, the objective was to be able to dump a bucket of parts off the second floor mezzanine and have them assemble themselves by the time they hit the floor.

 

Others good engineers used the saying that if you put a bunch of parts in a bag and shook the bag, the parts would assemble themselves.

 

These are the basis for a quality product.

 

Also, automation does not guarantee high quality.  Machines must be kept in alignment, tolerances kept, and temperature variations due to the weather.  The welding of a car body can "grow or shrink" depending on the temperature in the plant and the machines.

 

I could go on and on about quality and what it takes to achieve it.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

on the surface this is good news!  However, without a subscription to Consumers Reports, the details of the actual report are missing.  One link they provided was a list of the top 10 most reliable cars.  Not a Buick made the list.  So I am immediately suspect about the methods of the research and the interpretation. 

 

Years ago when I did subscribe to this publication, I noted that the method was to simply poll owners and ask them about their experience with their cars.  I thought that method was highly unreliable.  I wonder if they can tap into manufacturer information about repairs to these vehicles today, for more confidence in the survey results? 

 

[retirednow]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

Interesting considering g the two newest models are built in Poland and  China.  Especially as much bad mouthing as I seem to read about "Chinese junk" on this forum.

I must confess that I was somewhat  leery about buying the Cascada, since I knew nothing at all about Polish auto manufacturing methods/quality. But, I decided to take a chance and couldn't be happier with my purchase. 

[smithbrother]

I'm SORRY I brought it up,

 

Dale in Indy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NTX5467]

In the 1990s, when GM was becoming more globalized AND we discovered that GM had a presence in the Poland region, we started getting replacement parts (usually engine sensors and such) that had the appropriate European country mentioned as the part's origin.  Taking it out of the box, it looked like any other similar part.  When the customer would inquire as to what made that GM part different from what was at the auto supply, my reply was "This one, we know, is manufactured to GM specifications".  And that's what can separate the "junk" from "good stuff", although both might be cosmetically the same.

 

There are mountains of "specs" for vehicles.  Some can be seen visually and others are not.  Sheet metal thickness, panel gaps (and alignment), paint gloss levels, and THEN determining the materials to use to make all of that work AND meet the manufacturer's production cost targets . . . those are some of the things we SEE.

 

Customers can have varying orientations of just what "quality" is.  "Reliability" is a more definite situation, by observation . . . which can also be tracked internally via warranty claims, if desired.  As quality can be more of a "touch factor" in materials feel and tactile feels.  All within any cost parameters set by the financial group.  Sometimes, great designs can be marginalized (in the eyes of magazine critics or others) by choices made to meet the financial targets.  AND, such financial targets can determine WHERE money is spent on the vehicle (long term, as in engines and transmissions) or not spent.  It's a complicated mix!  This subject is covered very nicely in deLorean's book "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors".  LOTS of questions were answered in that book! 

 

If you know what you're looking at, you can tell where money was spent on a vehicle.  Import brands' engines usually see longer life, so that cost would be spread out over more model years with only evolutionary changes/upgrades.  From there, more short-term money could be spent on interior materials, for example.  And, as their engines were "done right" to start with, THAT soon becomes a selling point for the particular brand of vehicle.  People LOOK for that engine as it's generally known to give good service and longevity, with ultimate horsepower not being the major selling point it can be with USA brands.  Different orientations that can give the customer more confidence if they haven't owned that brand of vehicle previously.

 

When we subscribed to the major consumer magazine, in the middle 1960s or so, I read their yearly vehicle survey charts.  I then read what each section involved.  Similarly, they started listing "defects" in the cars they tested.  On their list, a "defect" could be poorly-aimed headlights or it could be "squeeks and rattles", rather than a failed engine or otherwise.  Things which could have been caught in a dealer's good make ready operation.  That's the way I'd see it, but obviously anything that was not perfect was defective in their orientation.

 

It should also be noted that how a dealer orders vehicles, equipment-wise, can have big affects upon these surveys!  If we suddenly found problems with certain options or combinations thereof, we didn't order them for stock vehicles.  Our local Chrysler dealer would not order anything with a factory Holley 4bbl, unless he had to.  That meant not a lot of factory hot rods, but the year they came standard on Imperials, they later swapped them out for Carter 4bbls with good results.  Having somebody that ordered the vehicles who KNEW about vehicles and optional equipment was a HUGE plus for us!!  In the 1970s and later, we'd usually order the HD rear springs, deeper axle ratios (depending upon engine size and such), and optional larger tires on all of the C/K10s we had.  Those trucks "worked" and held up well.  Other dealers didn't do that, by observation.  In more recent times, many of those options just are not there, which simplifies production complexity somewhat.

 

Key thing is that "junk" can happen most anywhere in the world.  What separates it from "the good stuff" include the specification the item is built to . . . ALL of them.  Finding the best cost/benefit orientation can be tricky.  Having universally GREAT customer support can be important too . . . even if a problem is had, how the dealer addresses it can minimize the distaste the customer might have for the inconvenience of the situation, by observation.

 

A HUGE matrix of components which some seek to make a "sound byte" out of.

 

Remember when Saturn used to best Lexus in the JDPowers surveys??  Consistently!

 

NTX5467

[Thriller]

When an article starts talking about infotainment systems as the reason for a poor showing in a survey, I don't care nearly as much. Yes I'd prefer everything work on a new vehicle, but I'm less concerned about something of that nature than more critical functions and fit / finish and material quality. But that's just me and I seem to be in a minority on things like that in our society. 

 

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, retirednow said:

I must confess that I was somewhat  leery about buying the Cascada, since I knew nothing at all about Polish auto manufacturing methods/quality. But, I decided to take a chance and couldn't be happier with my purchase. 

It's a German designed Opel built in Poland.  I think it also uses a transmission sourced out of Mexico. It's also available in Australia in the Holden line and in Canada as a Vauxhall, so I've read.

[EmTee]

I just replaced the crankshaft position sensor in my father's 2000 Silverado 5.3L 2WD pickup.  I specifically ordered the OEM AC-Delco part only to see "Made in China (Mainland)" on the package when it arrived.  So, it's becoming virtually impossible to source US-made parts.  At least with OEM parts, I expect they are made to the original (or better) specifications, whereas I could have opted for an off-brand, offshore part for 1/4 the price.  Who knows what's inside that piece... 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

7 hours ago, Thriller said:

When an article starts talking about infotainment systems as the reason for a poor showing in a survey, I don't care nearly as much. Yes I'd prefer everything work on a new vehicle, but I'm less concerned about something of that nature than more critical functions and fit / finish and material quality. But that's just me and I seem to be in a minority on things like that in our society. 

 

 

  Me too!!  

 

  Ben

[retirednow]

8 hours ago, RivNut said:

It's a German designed Opel built in Poland.  I think it also uses a transmission sourced out of Mexico. It's also available in Australia in the Holden line and in Canada as a Vauxhall, so I've read.

And the engine is made in Hungary. It's a Vauxhall in the U.K. Not sure if it's sold in Canada yet, but I heard it is or will be sold as a Buick there.

Edited October 25, 2016 by retirednow (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

9 hours ago, Thriller said:

When an article starts talking about infotainment systems as the reason for a poor showing in a survey, I don't care nearly as much. Yes I'd prefer everything work on a new vehicle, but I'm less concerned about something of that nature than more critical functions and fit / finish and material quality. But that's just me and I seem to be in a minority on things like that in our society. 

 

Just don't forget, quirks in the infotainment system would lead to a dealer visit too.  What with the cost of new vehicles today, if that system had faults I'd want it fixed.  That would inevitably lead to AIS at the dealers waiting room, and poor reviews on a survey.

[60FlatTop]

Buick owners traditionally have very high self esteem. Ask a Buick owner if they are satisfied in their decision to purchase a Buick and the answer will be "Of course I am. I am very satisfied with all my decisions and my life in general."

 

Mature, adult decision making always gets a person a better car. And you don't get much more mature than the typical Buick buyer. Life expectancy just isn't that high.

 

A big portion of Lexus buyers were formerly Buick owners. My next everyday vehicle will be another Silverado or Tahoe, but could be a V8 Lexus. For very discerning reasons new Buicks are not in the running. If the car didn't meet my expectations it would be down the road and replaced. I sure wouldn't be filling out a questionnaire telling people I made a dumb mistake.

 

Yes, I have been called arrogant a few times; usually along with some body part. But it seems to fit. MY buicks have all been good, I picked them.

Bernie

Edited October 25, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

Bernie there is a lot of truth to what you said.

 

I too tend to explain a lot of the car reliability ratings by looking at the owner demographics.  Buick owners maintain and otherwise take care of their cars.  People with bad credit and no ability to replace brakes and tires when necessary (much less other recommended maintenance items) don't typically buy Buicks.

[NTX5467]

A KEY point in the "rise of Lexus" is that, other than their DNA for Toyota perceived reliability, is their generally HIGH residual value, which means low lease payments.

 

Lexus had one of the first certified pre-owned programs, other than RollsRoyce, where "standards" had to be met for the dealer to re-sell the vehicle.  If something needed to be replaced, it was replaced with OEM parts, right down to the OEM-spec tires.  GM's initial version of Certified Pre-Owned had similar orientations, but as time progressed, the "standards" tended to relax somewhat. 

 

There were many 2:00am Lexus Pre-Owned infomercials where the potential buyers could not believe the cars had the miles on them that they did.  Some of that could relate to "quality of assembly and materials".  One of their KEY selling points was the "Shift Shock Test", where a soft drink was in the cupholder.  The car was idling in Park, but when put into "Drive" there was no evidence of any "shift shock" as the transmission engaged.  I might add that it might have been a little different if they'd gone into "Reverse" (and its generally higher line pressure) rather than into "Drive", but as they were in a parking lot, "Drive" was more appropriate.

 

It now seems that MOST of the newer vehicle complaints DO center around two areas -- Infotainment and "more-speeds" automatic transmissions.  NOT brand-specific as it tends to include MOST of them, across the board.

 

In some cases, the Infotainment issue can have multiple areas.  Was the customer properly schooled on how to use it and what it would or could do?  Plus actual demonstartions of what functions were where?  Did some gremlins sneak through the quality control checks?

 

On the automatic transmission issue, GM seems to have some "unusual" programming orientations with their newer vehicles!  Ranging from partial-lockup of the torque converter clutch (which also relates to a new ATF that is full-syn) to shift feel in particular throttle input situations.  PLUS some buffering of inputs before the transmission does some things!

 

An observed problem is when OEMs answer a customer's concern with "That's normal" (which can have many hidden meanings!) and the customer's prior vehicle did not behave in that particular manner.  IF an informed dealership operative can accurately and understandably explain what's going on with the vehicle and WHY it's doing what it does, THAT CAN help the customer better understand what's going on and why, which CAN also decrease their frustrations with "a normal" situation.

 

NTX5467

Edited October 26, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

Very good points NTX.

[60FlatTop]

" An observed problem is when OEMs answer a customer's concern with "That's normal" (which can have many hidden meanings!) and the customer's prior vehicle did not behave in that particular manner.  IF an informed dealership operative can accurately and understandably explain what's going on with the vehicle and WHY it's doing what it does, THAT CAN help the customer better understand what's going on and why, which CAN also decrease their frustrations with "a normal" situation."

 

I have been buying cars for 57 years and I have expectations of a smooth, effortless drive unless I chose a different performance style. The only response I will take after a visit with the dealership "schmoozer" will be abstinence. That's how Lexus got the higher position.

 

Luckily, I have over 100 years of automotive technology to choose from. I needed a car for my Wife about a year ago. I tried out every GM car I could. I swear, the Cadillac STS shifted more times than I took breaths on the test drive. I already had a 3,6, 5,000 pound Enclave for a company car (isn't that the large Fiat platform?). That gutless thing brought me home seething many nights, about 20,000 miles worth and it was gone. We are very happy with her 1998 Tahoe LT that she has driven 2,000 miles in the last year. They can run all the surveys on buyers they want, but did they run a survey on those whom chose alternatives?

"When a "kind of" better car is built, Buick will badge it." Toyota has been in bed with GM for quite a while. Rebadging a Lexus to a Buick could be a real winner, might be better than an Opel or Mokka.

Bernie

 

[39BuickEight]

Unfortunately, like most consumer products, vehicles aren't made according to what the consumer wants.  They are made according to what the government wants. 

[Beemon]

On 10/24/2016 at 5:23 PM, RivNut said:

Interesting considering g the two newest models are built in Poland and  China.  Especially as much bad mouthing as I seem to read about "Chinese junk" on this forum.

 

I want to bring some light to this.

 

The difference between buying parts for a contemporary automobile and a vintage automobile is that the parts that are made overseas are compliant with the parts currently in use. The parts of yesteryear were made more stout than their replacements today. There is a difference in quality of manufacturing, but it works for newer cars because that's how they're made - as cheap and affordable as possible. Not so much an issue back then where automakers could afford to make the arm on a starter relay an eighth inch thick vs the replacement models made today that are a sixteenth of an inch thick. I rarely ever see anyone buying parts over the counter for their daily or contemporary automobile say it's cheap junk because that's where the OEM stuff is usually made. There are usually varying costs for some parts, a cheaper alternative to an OEM sensor (economic vs affordable?), but they're still all made outside the country. I do see a lot of people complain about modern replacements for 60 year old hardware, though.

 

Sorry for the tangent, that's just how I've seen it in both dealing with my 56 Buick and my 02 Jeep. I've had stuff on the Buick break that was from over the counter (starter relay arm was too weak and welded contacts together, destroying starter) vs replacing engine sensors and fuel injectors on the Jeep. One lasted 6 months, the others have lasted almost 5 years now. Both claimed to "meet or exceed OEM".

 

Don't know where I stand on buying a new car. Since the big three plan on moving out of the nation, I guess it doesn't really depend where you shop anymore. You could get a Mexican Chrysler or Ford, or a Chinese Buick. My mother was a big time Daimler Chrysler fan and purchased the 02 Jeep (now mine) brand new and loved it, zero issues. She bought a 2008 Saab 9-3 because she heard great things about Saab, come to find out it was a GM and turned out to be a disaster for her. Her last car was a Honda. My father has been a bowtie man from the 80s onward and he swears by Chevrolet, but his last truck is an 03 Silverado Duramax and he's basically dead in the water on his own at that point in terms of service. The local dealership knows more about his 90 K1500 than his 03 Duramax and defaults to fuel injectors.

 

Just like polls, I don't read consumer reports. Buick could be #3 in quality, but only through your own research can you determine what's best for you.

[EmTee]

Yes, Buick is indeed #3 based on "Average Reliability Score" in the December 2016 issue of CR that I just received in the mail, BUT --  Among the statements printed above the table is the following:

 

"Infiniti is the biggest mover this year, jumping 16 places to crack the top 10.  It has a small model lineup, so slight improvements in reliability can result in big brand gains."

 

Infiniti is identified as having 4 models in its lineup.  Guess who also has just 4 models...  yes, it's Buick.  They go on to identify Verano (87) as the most reliable and Enclave (58) as the least reliable in the Buick stable.  Bottom line, if Infiniti can move 16 places in one year, I'll wait a year or two before I go out and drop over $30K on a new Buick to see whether the reliability gain is real or an aberration...

[JohnD1956]

22 minutes ago, EmTee said:

...I'll wait a year or two before I go out and drop over $30K on a new Buick to see whether the reliability gain is real or an aberration...

 

 Where can someone find a new Buick for just 30K? 

[EmTee]

I did say over $30K!  Geez - $30K just about covers a Cobalt, or Kia...