CatBird Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 Jerry, not at all upset with you. Not in the slightest. The S/G is driving me nuts. My Cadillac manual shows a 1919 Cad with Type 57. I have a 1920 with a Type 59. The 1919 ignition switch diagram is different. I have the AACA Library sending me Type 59 Service Bulletins. The whole s/g is a very simple device, yet I cannot find the key. I keep thinking I have an answer, but no joy. I have talked with a couple of old car people who will bench test the S/G. So, I will pull the damn thing and take it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Bill , am I mistaken in thinking you had the same problem before the rebuild ? In which case , it would make the switch suspect , correct ? Have you been talking to Romaine ? Hard to imagine they would have made a mistake , ( but maybe there is some quantum explanation tied up in another dimension as per above speculation ). Yeah , what does Romaine say before you yank the thing out again ? After all , they know how to bench test it , and did so , right ? As I say , it would seem that if the problem existed before and after the rebuild , the fault would logically lie elsewhere. Unless Romaine doesn't know what they are doing. Not likely. I am very curious. - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) On 10/29/2016 at 6:57 PM, Bill Caddyshack said: Latest symptoms. When I turn on the ignition switch, nothing, if I depress the starter pedal I can hear the armature turning, but will not engage. Does not spin the shaft connected to the distributor. I assume it should not, I guess that once the engine is running, the ratcheting clutch allows the armature and operate as a generator instead of a starter. As the armature spins the Ammeter does indicate a very small low draw. Somehow is wired wrong. I suppose the armature should only be spinning as it is should only be doing so when only the ignition switch is engaged. At least that part is working, albeit the switching somehow it is improperly connected. Ok, ok. It would seem the process is that it SHOULD work would be, 1. The ignition switch is turned on. The armature spins, like it is doing. 2. Depress the pedal and the bendix engages the starter drive and the flywheel thereby starting the car. Best I can tell, the brushes and spring are good. Everything looks right. I am certain that the wires connecting the s/g from the ignition (combination switch) are correct. Something inside the s/g is not wired as it should be. Please look at the enclosed diagrams. Please have a look at the enclosed diagrams. Bill, I do not know where you got the wiring diagram that you think is for your car, but if it is a Buick I believe it is incorrect. It shows an 8 cylinder engine. All Buicks that I know of have always had a negative ground. Below is a wiring diagram that I believe is for your car if it is a 1920 Buick 6 cylinder. If not, let me know the exact model and year and I will scan the correct for you if I have it in my book. You will note that it is a negative ground for a 1920 Buick. wiring diagram2082.pdf Edited November 11, 2016 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Larry, if you go back to post 33 you will see that this is a Cadillac not a Buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tinindian said: Larry, if you go back to post 33 you will see that this is a Cadillac not a Buick. Is it a 1920 Cadillac? Here are some wiring diagrams for different Cadillacs of the era. Edited November 12, 2016 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROD W Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 You should be able to test if the generator and starter motor are working by running a lead straight from the battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27donb Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) This thread has inspired me to get into my 24-45 starter generator. The generator commutator is very dark and worn, so I removed it to turn it and clean up the starter one as well with emery cloth. Before I began, the generator motored on the bench and the starter seemed to spin strong too. 1 - My question is about the ratcheting clutch. It seemed fine on the bench, but I had trouble getting it off the shaft and when it was off, it was stuck. I got it freed up, but my question is about the spring loaded plungers. I see two of them, but they seem to have a flat top with a hole in them? Am I missing some parts, or is that all that is supposed to be there. Is there supposed to be a check ball or something along with the plunger? I can get the clutch out of the gear, but I cannot disassemble the clutch itself. When I reinstalled the clutch and gear on a spare S/G shaft, it rotates freely and quietly in one direction, and locks up in the other, so that seems normal. Just don't want to get it all on the car, and then find out there should be check balls or something else in the clutch, that may have dropped out on the floor... 2 - In the wiring diagram, one wire goes from the ignition switch to one motoring terminal, the other motoring terminal gets it's 6 volts from the coil + terminal. During bench testing, I just gave 6 volts to both motoring terminals and it worked. Why does the second motoring terminal have to be connected to the coil +? Couldn't both motoring terminals just get their 6 volts from the ignition switch? Edited April 1, 2017 by 27donb added another question (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Thanks for posting on this topic. I will be interested in some responses. On my 1925-25 the starter pedal engages very smoothly and no grinding. On my 1925-45 Master I really have to "MASH" down on the starter plunger to keep engagement or it grinds very easily.To me that would not seem normal. Leif Holmberg is sending me scans of the 1925 Master Book of Parts so I will have a better Idea of how the plunger set up is supposed to look as opposed to the standard pedal arrangement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Want to make my engine turn a bit quicker on start up. can I use a 12 v battery or will it just burn out the windings in the starter/gen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Want to make my engine turn a bit quicker on start up. can I use a 12 v battery or will it just burn out the windings in the starter/gen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Want to make my engine turn a bit quicker on start up. can I use a 12 v battery or will it just burn out the windings in the starter/gen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Want to make my engine turn a bit quicker on start up. can I use a 12 v battery or will it just burn out the windings in the starter/gen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 3 hours ago, Barry R said: Want to make my engine turn a bit quicker on start up. can I use a 12 v battery or will it just burn out the windings in the starter/gen ? You can do what you want, but I would not recommend it. I would recommend changing the battery cables to 0 size cable, new end connectors, clean all of the contact points of the cables and you should be mostly there to having the car start fine. Most starting slow problems are caused by bad or wrong size cables and poor electrical connections. Remember that the cars ran fine when new so you should not need to change. Just bring the car back to the original quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 If your s/g is working correctly and you have the recommended cables, these turn the engine quite quickly on 6 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) Cranking speeds were just slower, and based on what the engineer thought would start a low RPM engine reliably. Of course if the speed is chugging down to almost nothing every time a piston comes around, that is not normal and has a detrimental effect on starting, especially by dragging the voltage low right when the spark is about to occur if the car has battery ignition. If it has an impulse magneto, even that might not matter so much. If it is chugging down and having trouble starting, look at the things @Larry Schramm and @Oldtech suggested. If it still won't crank well, the starter/generator may need work. Remember in the 20s a new engine was a tight draggy engine until it broke in. That starter/generator had to work harder to start the engine (and sell the new car) than it ever will on a car that has been recently running and driven. Listen to @Terry Wiegand's 1916 start up, and this is a fresh rebuilt engine! Edited July 20, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 I owe a lot to Rex Curtiss of Precision Power in Lansing, Michigan for the operation of the Starter/Generator on our '16. He told me that the unit really was in pretty good condition, however, he said it was filthy dirty inside. He turned the commutator and installed new brushes after getting everything cleaned up. It works like a charm now. The comments about the cables are so very true. I am running the heaviest gauge cable that can be had from the battery to the S/G Unit. This is one of the most important things that a person can do with a 6-Volt system in one of these old vehicles. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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