TheYorkBell Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Hello All. Over the summer I purchased this Bell Motor Car at an estate auction in Mifflinburg, Pa. There is not much in terms of parts to the car. I have the body (minus one door), the seats, most of the top frame, and what I am hoping is one front and one rear fender that actually belong to the car. I have also recently purchased a 4cyl Herschell Spillman engine for the car. I am looking to put this car back together so I am looking for any information or pictures anyone may have as I have pretty well exhausted my search online. First things first, I need to figure out what the exact year of the car is so I can have it titled properly here in PA (we are thinking it's a 1921 model, but I would like to be sure) . I have attached a picture of the data plate which reads Car No: 14102 Model: 4 32. Some background info on what I have found so far. The Bell Motor Car company was located in York, Pa and existed from 1915-1921. The company was more of an assembler than a producer (they built the bodies and bought the rest of the parts (engine, trans, etc.) elsewhere). There are two other Bell cars known to exist, one up in Barrie Ontario Canada (as Barrie Carriage company was licensed to produce Bell bodies), and one in York, Pa. Both of those cars are 1917 models and the bodies are slightly different from the one I own. I have found some old ads and some information surfing the web but not much solid information to go off of so if anyone out there happens to have some old pictures of the car, factory, old ads, or any pertinent information please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Have you tried the York Industrial Museum? Many people who know Pullman's may have information about the Bell. I am in Chambersburg. Please keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I think Restorer32 on this forum has restored one. Send him a PM. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 10 hours ago, dibarlaw said: Have you tried the York Industrial Museum? Many people who know Pullman's may have information about the Bell. I am in Chambersburg. Please keep us informed. Hi dibarlaw, Thank you for the reply, I have been to the museum but that was before I had actually purchased the car. I am planning on going back to see if they have any resources or information that may help. 44 minutes ago, TerryB said: I think Restorer32 on this forum has restored one. Send him a PM. Terry Hi Terry, Thank you for the reply. Yes, he has (provided he is who I believe he is). I have already talked with him and he gave me all of the information he had, albeit not much more than I already had due to the fact that there is little info available. The Bell he worked on is also a different model than the one I have so I unfortunately cannot just look to it to figure out how mine goes back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I looked it up in one of my books and this is the info. Bell Motor Car Co., York, PA. A small inexpensive car, the Model 16 touring car of 1916 sold for $775, on a 9ft. 4in. wheelbase which used G.B.&S. and Continental engines at first and Herschell-Spillman motors from 1919. In 1922 the name was changed to Riess-Royal in honor of the company president Charles E. Riess but very few cars were made under this name. As stated perhaps the AACA Library has more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 MoparMan, Yes I am who you think I am. Nice talking to you again at Hershey. We beat the bushes pretty hard when we restored the York built Bell in 1987 and beat them again when we did quite a bit of the restoration of the Canadian built Barrie Bell in 1997. Very little info available but you are young and have time on your side. I never thought another Bell body would turn up but it did. I almost bought it myself just as a curiosity. The York Bell was the first car we took thru AACA judging. Lots of the info that is available is unreliable. The 1917 we restored used a Lycoming engine and a Covert Transmission. Ours was a pretty snappy little car. You have to be suspicious of all of the factory info and press releases on early cars. Much of it was wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: Lots of the info that is available is unreliable The Big Book by Kimes/Clark shows what must be incorrect model number designations. That book shows two digits in each model which is the year. The mystery tag shows more of an "cylinder count and HP" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 As far as I know they never built anything but 4 cylinder cars. Ours was a partially disassembled but otherwise unmolested car that had been in the York area and in the hands of assorted collectors for many years. Interesting aside: The York Bell Co licensed a family in Barrie, Ontario to build the Barrie Bell. Apparently 6 cars were built before the effort bankrupted the family that held the Canadian license. Various court cases ensued and the final chapter to the Barrie Bell saga apparently wasn't written until sometime in the 1960s. The restored/recreated Barrie Bell was shown at Hershey about 10-15 years ago and won a First Junior. It now lives in a museum in Barrie. The York Bell was sold by its long time owner. I do not know who actually owns it now. There were about 14 makes of automobiles built in York, PA in the teens and very early twenties. The only one that achieved any sort of real success was Pullman. A total of 21 or so Pullman autos survive. Two were sold by Sothebys last week at the Hershey Auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 If that tag model number really denotes horsepower, is there a way to look up the 4 different brands of engines mentioned here and the ones in the Big Book, to tell which motor was in the mystery car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Dykes manual might have that info though 32 hp seems high bur it could be "marketing hp". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, F&J said: The Big Book by Kimes/Clark shows what must be incorrect model number designations. That book shows two digits in each model which is the year. The mystery tag shows more of an "cylinder count and HP" ? From what I have found it appears from 1916-1919 model years the model number was designated by the last two digits of the year. Later models were designated by three digit number the first being the number of cylinders. The second two I am not so sure about, it doesn't appear to be horsepower as the ads I have found say the car had 36hp. I have also found an ad for a Bell "four-thirty" that furthers my assumption that it's not referring to horse power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, MoparMan426 said: From what I have found it appears from 1916-1919 model years the model number was designated by the last two digits of the year. Later models were designated by three digit number the first being the number of cylinders. The second two I am not so sure about, it doesn't appear to be horsepower as the ads I have found say the car had 36hp. I have also found an ad for a Bell "four-thirty" that furthers my assumption that it's not referring to horse power. I just was trying to find out why your tag shows something totally different that the printed model designations. I'm lost on why your tag does not match their info. I have not looked at any car ads, though. At any rate, good luck with what you are trying to save. Especially a local built early car, that's pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 With so little information, I guess you have some "artistic license" on how you build the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 The York Industrial Museum, now the York Heritage Trust, has nothing Bell related. We picked their brains while restoring the Barrie Bell. We even tramped thru their warehouse. I knew there were some early parts stashed there but they turned out to be Sphinx parts (another York built car) and were of no use. Fred Rosenmiller may be of some help but I believe we have copies of everything he might have. When we began the restoration of the York Bell we contacted Harrah's Museum. They still had a research dept then. They sent us a letter listing owners of 5 Bell automobiles. All 5 were the previous owners of our car. There is a Bell radiator emblem in the Smithsonian, several in the Swigert Museum and Fred Rosenmiller had 2, one we used on his car and another in very bad shape. I've never seen any others. Your best resource, quite honestly, and I don't mean it to sound like I'm bragging, is me. You need to call Fred and find out who now owns the Bell and see how amenable they are to your taking pictures, making measurements, etc. Yours may be a different year and model but lacking any additional year specific info the only thing you have to go on is the car we restored. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Restorer32 said: The York Industrial Museum, now the York Heritage Trust, has nothing Bell related. We picked their brains while restoring the Barrie Bell. We even tramped thru their warehouse. I knew there were some early parts stashed there but they turned out to be Sphinx parts (another York built car) and were of no use. Fred Rosenmiller may be of some help but I believe we have copies of everything he might have. When we began the restoration of the York Bell we contacted Harrah's Museum. They still had a research dept then. They sent us a letter listing owners of 5 Bell automobiles. All 5 were the previous owners of our car. There is a Bell radiator emblem in the Smithsonian, several in the Swigert Museum and Fred Rosenmiller had 2, one we used on his car and another in very bad shape. I've never seen any others. Your best resource, quite honestly, and I don't mean it to sound like I'm bragging, is me. You need to call Fred and find out who now owns the Bell and see how amenable they are to your taking pictures, making measurements, etc. Yours may be a different year and model but lacking any additional year specific info the only thing you have to go on is the car we restored. I talked with Fred briefly before leaving Hershey. He told me the current owner is in negotiations with the Boyertown Museum as they are looking at purchasing the car. I did not get much other information from him as he was busy packing things up into his trailer. I appreciate all of the help you have given me thus far, and I'm sure I will have more questions for you in the future as this project progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Its a real shame the Bell car will be leaving York. Another piece of York history gone. First the Meisenhelder, then 1908 and 1910 Pullmans and now the Bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Yes it is. Any idea who bought the Pullman cars? We restored both the Pullman cars as well as the Bell. Hate to see them leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 57 minutes ago, ksbortner said: Its a real shame the Bell car will be leaving York. Another piece of York history gone. First the Meisenhelder, then 1908 and 1910 Pullmans and now the Bell. It is sad. On the bright side, I live in the York area so my Bell will be staying local. And I've already decided if I moved out of the area I would try to put the car on loan at the York Industrial Museum (provided it is complete enough at that point to do so). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I do not know who purchased the two Pullman Cars at the auction. However I highly doubt anyone in the York area did as I am sure I would have heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Mopar, I am glad your Bell came back to the York area. Good luck with the restoration, you have a big job ahead of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 38 minutes ago, ksbortner said: I do not know who purchased the two Pullman Cars at the auction. However I highly doubt anyone in the York area did as I am sure I would have heard. We did engine work on your Pullman as well. Was nice to see it again. We passed you on our way to Hershey last week. First time I had seen the cloverleaf roadster in quite a few years. It has the G,B and S engine as I remember. We actually found a new old stock head gasket for your engine when we worked on it in about 1989 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 23 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: We did engine work on your Pullman as well. Was nice to see it again. We passed you on our way to Hershey last week. First time I had seen the cloverleaf roadster in quite a few years. It has the G,B and S engine as I remember. We actually found a new old stock head gasket for your engine when we worked on it in about 1989 or so. Our Pullman still runs and drives great, esp, for a 100 year old car. This was the first time we have shown a car at Hershey. I wanted to show it since it was 100 years old this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Your car was one of my favorites of Fred's cars to drive. It always started and drove well. From 1987 'til 1998 we took care of all of Fred's cars and tried to keep them running. Quite a chore actually, Yours was the only car Fred had that didn't need major engine work. As I remember we only changed the head gasket because it was leaking badly. I was amazed that Olson's Gaskets had a NOS head gasket for your Golden, Belknap and Schwartz engine. Mr Olson said he never thought he would sell that gasket! I drove your car quite a bit over the years. Glad that at least it is still in the York area. Any idea what happened to the '09 Pullman Touring? I thought that was a pretty car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 7 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: Your car was one of my favorites of Fred's cars to drive. It always started and drove well. From 1987 'til 1998 we took care of all of Fred's cars and tried to keep them running. Quite a chore actually, Yours was the only car Fred had that didn't need major engine work. As I remember we only changed the head gasket because it was leaking badly. I was amazed that Olson's Gaskets had a NOS head gasket for your Golden, Belknap and Schwartz engine. Mr Olson said he never thought he would sell that gasket! I drove your car quite a bit over the years. Glad that at least it is still in the York area. Any idea what happened to the '09 Pullman Touring? I thought that was a pretty car. This car? Will Markey purchased the 09 from Wagmans a few years ago. I believe Will's daughter has the car since his passing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 I did not know that. The last work I did for Fred was a rebuild of the engine on the '09. Thanks. We did quite a bit of work for Mr Markey as well, Quite a character, I miss him. We restored the 1919 International Carousel Truck he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregory Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 If you want some information about the Barrie Bell besides the museum . There is a Canadian publication called Old Auto's . Maybe they have done a cover story about the Barrie Bell ? They might be able to help you out . http://oldautos.ca/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbortner Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 17 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: I did not know that. The last work I did for Fred was a rebuild of the engine on the '09. Thanks. We did quite a bit of work for Mr Markey as well, Quite a character, I miss him. We restored the 1919 International Carousel Truck he had. It is a nice car. When it was for sale before Markey purchase did my father-in-law and I went to look at it and considered purchasing it. However at that time the engine had been removed because it was blown and was in Philadelphia to be rebuilt. It also had cosmetic issues and we decided it was more work than we wanted to take on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Interesting side point about Bell... Std Cat does just list 4cyls, but in looking up the Hs in my old catalogs find a 25 Perfect Circle ring catalog listing a Hs 11000 (6cyl) for a 1919 bell (no model #) as well as the 7000 4cyl for 1920-23 (no model #s)...a couple others agree with the Lyc and the 7000... Std Cat does refer to another Bell, 1917 NY, NY, but that supposedly had only a rotary of some kind in a couple prototypes, and the dates are a little off... That catalog also lists some Budas, apparently a confusion of the Bell car with an unrelated Bell truck that used Budas per Mroz... Std Cat also says, under Riess Royal 1921, that the "new" car was to have a HS 6 of 57 HP... Old replacement parts catalogs are, of course, weak reeds to rely on, and HP is a poor ID source for engines, HP being a function of how tightly the engine's wound up, among other factors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 When we were restoring the Bell we intreviewed a very elderly lady who had worked as an upholsterer in the factory when she was a young girl. I found it fascinating that she told us they had separate entrances into the factory for men and women and about the only male she ever saw in her part of the factory was her supervisor. Bell claimed to have sold a significant number of cars in France but we've never seen confirmation of that. Difficult to separate fact from marketing hype. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Devoe Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 I realize this is an old thread, but I have just run across the Pullman auction info, and have been searching the autos made in York PA. Really interesting stuff, and my search led me to this thread. I hope Moparman was there, as it looks like a lot of info on the Bell was sold. Is there any update on the car and the restoration? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted June 11, 2019 Author Share Posted June 11, 2019 Hi Tom, I was not able to make to the auction but I did bid on the items online, however I bid as much as I could afford and lost both lots, not sure who ended up winning them, I just know it was a floor bidder. As for the restoration, I have not made much progress, I recently purchased a home so most of my funds have been tied up in that. Hoping to get some things sold off this year and focus more on the Bell. I will probably create another thread documenting progress on it once I have time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just out of curiosity reviewed my old period catalogs to see if I'd acquired anything pertinent since '16, but nothing new... However, I noted a comment in the thread above I should've commented on in '16---the differences between "Official" model designations (per Std Cat, which I assume to be as Official as it gets) and the models listed in parts catalogs---lots do match, but lots do not, and sometimes they have no relation at all, which is awkward when you're trying to ID which engine was original... Bell models that don't match are 4-18 (probably the 1918), the 4-32 (Std Cats 36HP found overoptimistic when checked?? ), a "Special 4"with the H-Sp 7000, and a 6-60, almost certainly Riess's 6, rounded up from 57HP, sold as a Bell. The years listed are another tangle that don't seem to fit, also not unusual, but we use what's available...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) Figured I'd bump this post back up to the top - have learned a lot over the last few years, but still a lot I don't know. Biggest thing we have found out is that my Bell appears to be a 1918 model manufactured after The Bell Motor Company acquired the Pullman factory and much of the leftover goods at the bankruptcy sale. This leads us to believe my Bell is actually made from a leftover 1917 Pullman car body (the photo below from the Library of Congress shows a 1917 Pullman and the body is spot on for my Bell). With all that being said I am looking for some more photos/literature to help me figure out the most accurate way to piece this car back together. I am looking for an original copy of the 1918 Bell Sales brochure (or at least a high resolution copy of one) like the one I have attached in the photos (sold on ebay years ago). If you are or know the owner of this piece of ephemera PLEASE reach out to me. I have created an Instagram Account to begin posting updates of my research and restoration progress. If you would like to follow look up TheYorkBell_1918 (https://www.instagram.com/theyorkbell_1918/) on instagram and give us a follow. For those of you not on social media who would like to follow the car's progress - I will be creating a post here on the forum that I will update as well. Edited October 21, 2023 by TheYorkBell (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) Who owns the '17 Bell we restored now? We lost track of it. Edited October 22, 2023 by Restorer32 Repeat (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playswithbrass Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Simcoe County Museum in Ontario? If that is the Barrie Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 14 hours ago, Restorer32 said: Who owns the '17 Bell we restored now? We lost track of it. I’m not sure. I was told by a friend of mine that it’s still in York as he had transported it to a show for the guy a few years ago. I don’t remember if he told me the name though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, playswithbrass said: Simcoe County Museum in Ontario? If that is the Barrie Bell The one Restorer32 is talking about is the original Bell to be found (the one used for reference in restoring the Barrie Bell). The original is still in York someone in a private collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Restoring/replicating the Barrie Bell was a monumental task. All they had to start with was a body and a grill shell. No drive train, no frame, no interior, no fenders, no hood. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYorkBell Posted November 12, 2023 Author Share Posted November 12, 2023 Bumping this back to the top - still looking for parts/info for 1917 Pullman/1918 Bell Motor Car. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now