Tom M Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Good Morning Al,The springs and valves are new. The valves are the same length as the ones I took out originally. For the valve lash I did not have to do much adjustment from where they are set now.Are these metal head gasket reusable or should I get a new one since it looks like this one may be bad because of the leak?Thanks for the input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 replace the head gasket, but check the old one carefully for any breaks in it, if not, carefully check the head and block for cracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Al,I had the head magniflux last year. They said it was okay but it does have a little warp ness to it. The shop said with the number of head bolts it would straighten it out. The water passages are pretty rusty so the shop didn?t blast that part of it because they were afraid it would make the walls get to thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 We always have our heads planed if there is any warping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Shall I have it planed since I need to pull head off anyways to replace the valve springs?Does anyone know of a good rebuid shop in Chicago area?What is a cost to have a full rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 In the first picture I posted last night (post #252535 - 11/03/04 09:25 PM) can you all see how some of the springs are binding/coiling up. How do I fix this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Well since the weather was okay and have the Xmas lights up I had time to pull head off last night. For the antifreeze leak I see no signs of cracks in the head or in the block so my guess is that the head gasket. I did use the copper head gasket spray sealer on the gasket before I installed it. Could that caused the gasket not to seal properly?On the head gasket between cylinders 1&2, 6&7 it appears there was some sort of leak because there are black marks (soot) on the valve side of the head gasket. I will take pictures of it tonight.I pull out the last valve and compared it to the original and I see no difference in height. The only difference I see is where the key that goes into the slot on the valve is slightly lower on the shaft (closer to seat) on the new valve. To me that shouldn?t make a difference or should it?Also the valve does wiggle around little in the guide. Does this mean I should install new guides?For the springs I have not pull out one that has not broken to compare to an original one. I will do so tonight if not to cold out.I was reading up on Valve Spring Coil Bind and it stated that the safety margin of .060" (or more) is necessary to avoid the dangers of coil bind and over-stressing the spring. FAQ on Valve SpringsIf I don?t have this margin does this mean I need shorter springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Tom, did you re torque head after a run period and cool down?What is your valve guide clearance? If there is a lot of obvious side to side movement in a valve, especially compared to others, you need to replace guide.You should not be able to see a difference in the valve key slot. If the key slot is closer to valve head that means the spring tension would be increased and you may not have proper compressed spring clearance. You should call the company you bought the new valves from, discuss the slot difference and get the right valves. Are the springs that broke associated with the new valves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 Hello JT,Yes I did re torque the head after a few runs.All valves are new and stainless steel. I will double check the slot again after work and see how much of a difference there is. Now I think I understand what you mean by compressed clearance. If the slot is closer to head that means the spring compression would be shorter and not enough clearance for spring to compress. Could I go with shorted springs?I thought I had a inside mic small in my machine shop tool box but I don't so I don't know the clearance between guide and valve stem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Okay here is some more info.I took measurements of the key slot and there is a 9/32 +/-1/32 difference from the new valves to the old valves. Not good?In the attach picture I have a spacer/washer in my hand which as you can see fits down into the top of the spring. I think it purpose is for the spring to fit more snuggly around the valve guides. Is that a correct statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 In this picture it is not to clear but you can see the right spring started to twist out of the keeper. How to I go about fixing this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 And a picture of the head gasket. As you can see in picture there must of been a leak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Tom, 9/32 would be a big difference. Check with the supplier and see what they have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 valve stem to guide cleareance:Use a dial indicator. place the valve in the guide as it would normaly run. Rig the indicator to measure perpindicular to the stem and on the stem DIRECTLY AT THE END of the valve GUIDE. Anything more than double the book spec should be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Pack31 wrote:" took measurements of the key slot and there is a 9/32 +/-1/32 difference from the new valves to the old valves. Not good?"This why it is absolutely necessary to ALWAYS compare new parts to the old parts being replaced. The 'trust me' attitude of vendors is what causes this kind of headache for the mechanic especialy when dealing with mongral equipment. Yep, do it once and do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Well to be honest I did notice the difference in slot heights when installing the valves last year but I didn't think it would cause any problems. Guess it has? My BAD <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Now that I have run the car already with the new valves do you think the supplier (which I have mention in an earlier post) will replace them at no cost? Probally not?I don't have a Dial indicator but will check with my brother-in-law to see if he does. He does machine repair work.In the picture in this posty #258220 the valve which matches up with the spring on the right does have a scratch on the steam. I put valve back into guide and it also wiggles around a fair amount. Well looks like I need to replace valve guides or Maybe I am better off yanking motor and sending it out. But the cost? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I've changed alot of valve guides but never in a Packard. However all that i have ever changed are pretty much the same procedure. Get out your manual and read about the guide replacement. Its not rocket science. The only problem with doing it yourself is that sometimes the valve seat needs to be reground after a guide replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 I do have a manual and will pull it out and do some reading up on valve guide R&R. That is if the manual is clear enough to understand. Some things in manual are not.Maybe I should just drop in a SBC hea hea.... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Coincidentally, we just pulled the head and valve cover from a '31 840 and found 2 broken valve springs. New set of 16 from Egge is about $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Restorer32,Interesting. Are they the originals springs and valves?I bought my valves from EGGE. The springs I bought from Kanter. I don't remeber what I paid for springs but the valves were around $500. I wonder if Egges springs are any different then the ones from Kanter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Update. I sent the valves back to Egge with one set of the original valves that way they a set to compare and see the difference in where the slots are cut in stems of the new valves.I have another problem. Since the springs coiled bound on me some of the springs popped out of the keepers (stripped them) (see attachment of previous post for spring keeper). Is there anyplace out there that sells them or any ideas on how I can fix them?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Just got off phone with EGGE they told me they have been making the Valves this way for +15 years because people wanted the slots cut closer to head because the need of more Spring Pressure. So my valves are being sent back to me.I still have a question on the spring keepers/caps. Anyone please anyone know what I can do to replace the bad ones??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 WHERE can u get a set of CORRECT valves?????? If i remeber rite the keeper groove is 1/8 inch CLOSER to the head of the valve????? They did NOT make the valves that way on purpose. What they probably did is that they found a set of valves from some other application that was real close except for the keeper groove location and billed them out as "requested". You have some research to do in order to find the rite valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 "they told me they have been making the Valves this way for +15 years because people wanted the slots cut closer to head because the need of ..."Then tell them to "make" a set with the keeper groove in the original location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 One direction u mite take on this is to find a set of valves that are identicle to the original EXCEPT for face angle. If u find a set of valves that are identicle but with a 45 degree angle then u can have them refaced to 30 or 32 or 35 degrrees or whatever is needed for your engine. I have done this and know others that have done it with great success. Refacing is not expensive. About 1 to 3 dollars per valve. The only problem u run into on the refacing to anything that is not 45 degrrees is that most machine shops nowadays are too lazy or too tight to make the EASY machine change or buy the special 35 degree stone (if needed). U mite have to go buy the stone (if needed) for the machine shop to use. the stones are fairly expensive tho, $35 to $85 each (u'll only need one.) Like i said in the above post, u have alot of research to do on this. Otherwise u'll be chasing the wind listening to the "trust me" crowd of the new millenium way of bussiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 They did tell me they could make some to match the old ones but it probally would of cost me on top of what I paid for the other valves. That hurts the old moth filled pocket book. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />It frustrating seeing the car sit there on stands and not running. Guess I should do what my wife says since she is just sitting there is to start taking her apart for a restore and paint.Thanks all for the advice again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Tom, I still say the 9/32" difference you pointed out in the keeper slot seems like a lot. Egge's explanation of the change doesn't sound quite right(to say the least!) unless the users of this different spec valve were switching to a single spring setup. I would ask egge for some more info on the change or maybe a refund and then search out an original type valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 JT,I wonder if the slot was cut this way because others may be using the old/stock springs?I don't think I can get a refund due to that the fact I ran it for about a year with them installed.I did think about running with just one spring to see what happens. I may just due that. Trail and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 You might want to do a little research and try to come up with a single spring that would be comparable to the load of the ones you would be replacing. Do you have the spring specs (compression load, length, etc.) for the combination spring?Skinned Knuckles magazine (June) had an article on custom making valve springs for older engines which listed some links for spring suppliers such as:http://www.centuryspring.com/home.htmYou might check their site and find a suitable spring if you have your specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if the slot was cut this way because others may be using the old/stock springs? </div></div> That wouldn't make sense to me. I don't think a worn spring would have the same characteristics in a collapsed state (9/32").Did Egge supply you with the new springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Snopack Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Tom,You might investigate taking the valves to a machine shop that does EDM and see what it would cost to have the keeper slot elongated to position the keeper in the right location when assembled. EDM = Electron discharge machining.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 Jt,No Egge did not supply the springs. The salesman told me they buy them from a know Packard dealer. It is the same place I bought mine from.Thanks for the link on the springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 John,I guess that could be done. But would that not cause the key to slide up and down in slot. See attach 3d rep of slot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The spring tension would keep it in the slot but I don't know if there would be any strength issues in enlarging the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 Jt,Strange thing I was thinking of that on the way home from work today.I will have to see if this is a doable procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Any new developments on the valves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Have your tried Terrel Machine? They are supposed to carry original style engine internals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted July 8, 2005 Author Share Posted July 8, 2005 JT,I have received the valves back last week. They told me on phone that this is how they do them now. We were at my in-laws house in Indiana and the neighbor?s daughter husband owns a machine shop (CNC, electro cutting something) so I brought up my valve problems and he told me that he could take a look at them and also my spring problem. He said he could make about just anything if I had a pattern. X my fingers here.BigKev55Clipper,No I have not checked with Terrel. I will give them a call if my above reply doesn't pan out.Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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