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'31 Broken Valve Springs


Tom M

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The valve guides are a whole lot easier to get in and out if you have air tools. It's a pretty good job with hand tools but can be done. Somebody like Goodson will have either the air or hand drive to fit you guides. I'm not sure about the 31 but you will probably have to cut the guides with a chisel on the bottom as you drive them out, otherwise they will run into the lifters. Drive then down about an inch or so and then a couple of hits with a chisel will break them off. You can then drive the remainder out. To install new ones put them in dry ice before installing and they will go in easier. Guides shouldn't cost more than $5 or $6.

How do the cylinder walls look?

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Cylinder walls look in good shape and barley any ridge on top of cylinder.

Picture of valve guides of the rear cylinder. If you count four over from the back the guide looks different then the rest. This is the exhaust.

Tom

P.s. I added some more picture to Photo Post

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Let's see...if PackardBuff is correct in that babbitt bearings only ever lasted 2000 miles then the '31 we restored which had over 100 thou original miles must have had the bearings redone about 50 times. You'd think the oil pan bolts would wear out from all that pan dropping. Of course I'm not nearly as old as PackardBUFF so I have no firsthand knowledge of how things were in the old days. Come to think of it, I guess all those big blue PACKARD SERVICE signs were to let Packard owners know where to take their cars to have the bearings redone every 2000 miles. The car we did racked up all those miles from 1931 thru 1955, which means it went in to to the garage for bearing work on average every 6 months...Just wondering, does PackardBuff's screenname imply that he drives that 12 nekkid ?

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Guest Albert

My Grandfather use to pour new bearings for the old chev's in the backyard garage using the old "hot box" babbit from the railway cars and even he got a lot more miles out of an engine than 2000mi, guess pete must be using something else.. Just think how many times you would have to rebuild and engine just to get across the country??? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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for RESTORER - regarding "poured babbit" bearings:

Yes, I agree with you, as do many of my friends in the restoration community..we remain puzzled - since the restoraton of old cars first really got started in the early 1950's, as to how the "original" "poured babbit" rods often did give many TENS of thousands of miles of good service.

I have heard all kinds of explanations for this, mostly dealing with the lower speeds the cars were driven, and the composition of the bearing material. I have been told that modern "poured babbit" bearing material available today has less of this, more of that, etc.

Elsewhere in this site is a "post" by a fellow BUICK "buff" (regarding your interest in my using the term "BUFF"....no...I never drove either my Packards or my Buicks "nekid"....BUT...when the cars were NOT in motion....well...that is a discussion for a chat-room with a different focus..!) that Buicks had FAR better luck at high speeds with their method of babbiting rod bearings, than Packard.

Back in the mid 1950's, as more and more freeways got opened up in Southern California, more and more cars were "losing" their rod bearings. I went into this in some depth with a local bearing house. We never did figure it out. I am not sure how interested they really were in solving the queston - they had quite a nice customer base of people with pre '52 Chevies and Buicks "re-babbiting" rods. Of course we all knew the universal introduction of "insert" rod bearings thru-out the automotive industry was and did put them out of that business.

What was clear then, and remains clear today, is that poured babbit may have its place in, as you note, some industrial applicaitons, and "gets by" in SOME early automotibles, with low bearing-surface speeds, such as the "T" head engines of the "antique" era.

Just remembered something - want an example how "poured babbit" con-rod bearings behaved in service once highway speeds started increasing ? Go research the opening of the first stretch of the Pennsylvania Turnpike (someone help me here...I think it was early 1939). What better example of how inadequate this kind of rod bearing is, then reading newspaper accounts of that era, as to what happened when the "average joe" opened up his "poured babbit bearing equipped" motor on that then new high speed motor-way.

Have you had in your shop an "antique" engine (antique = designed prior to the 1918-1920 era)? Notice something interesting about the rod crank-pins, even on large displacement engines ? They are typicaly quite small in diamter. Why....they HAD to be...keep the rotational-bearing surface speed low. Of COURSE they would have LOVED to have larger diameter crank pins which was not practical until the modern "tri metal" insert came out in the mid 1930's. Just LOOK at a engine spec. sheet and see how crank-pin rod journal.

Bottom line - if you like "believing" in poured babbit as an acceptable shop practice, that is between you and your customers. I have already suggested several sources you can research, if you are seriously interested in the technical aspects of the marvelous invention of "precision steel-backed insert" type rod bearings. You have not indicated whether you have reviewed these materials, or what you think of them.

Perhaps you would demonstrate your sincerity by writing to the various universities with courses dealing with metalurgy as applied to automotive bearing materials, the SOCIEITY OF AUTOMOTIOVE ENGINEERS, and the various automotive manufacturers and exposing their wasting their time and the consumer's money - that poured babbit is good and "lasts". Also, there are many consumer advocate organizations that I am sure would love to hear about your "expose" - if you could get one of these "consumer interest / ecology" groups going on a crusade, it wouldn't be the first time someone wanted to turn back modern science and technology!

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Hi JT:

I cannot answer your question as to why you wondered if you were "missing something" about ring use, apparently questioning the high nickel content in "big" Packard engine blocks...and noted there were "iron rings" in your '40 Packard "120".

Just so you know where I am "coming from", I was actually BORN in a Packard "120" - perhaps this explains why I am such a rabid Packard "buff".. over my short life time, have owned, raced, worked on, wrecked, and/or had "inappropriate personal relationships" in...just about EVERY series Packard ever built, ( except for pre 1914 ones ).

But your question will have to remain unanswered, at least by me. You may have noticed that "posts" by several of us chatters, regarding technical differences between what Packard called its "Senior Division", and its other line of cars, have been deleted almost as fast as they were entered.

By comparison, "posts" by a fellow who said he felt "all Packards were the same and equal, and another who said his Packard was so good he didn't even know it was a SIX cylinder model, stayed...

We have to be "politically correct" in here. Why would you bring up or ask for technical discussions based on actual science or technology - havnt you seen how this hurts people's feelings ?

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Of course you are correct. Modern bearings are far, far superior to the old poured type and when we can we go the modern route. I think the inserts that can be adapted to fit the con rods of Standard 8 Packards are 1955 Plymouth if I remember correctly. We did a 1917 Lycoming 4 cylinder engine that had NO center main bearing. Press on the gas and you could feel the crank flailing around. Did a '28 Autocar which had big ball bearing mains, still in excellent shape. Pretty noisey though. The point is, babbitt bearings of the quality used originally and used as originally intended should give decent service. The challenge is, as always, finding the craftsmen with the ability and desire to do the job correctly.

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For RESTORER 32

Enjoyed fighting with you. We have GOT to get together and tell some "whoppers" on how clever we both are. Any chance of your getting up to the Detroit area for this big PACKARD MEET at the GILMORE CCCA Museum at the end of the month ? I promise not to make TOO much fun of your "900" series ...if you promise not to laugh TOO loudly at the condition my Twelve is in...!

I am told by those who know (dosnt EVERYONE claim to know EVERYTHING..!) that this PACKARD meet will be a "biggie"...with just about every Packard expert around in attendence (including the self-appointed ones like me...!).

C'mon..buddy..this sounds too good to miss. If you can make it, look me up; I am extending to you the same invitation I extended to that "53" guy - how about riding with me for the SAT. "driving tour" so we can do some serious arguing ! I will be at the FRI even. barbeque - as I noted to '53....shouldn't be too hard to spot..I am INCREDIBLY young, rich, and meek, mild mannered pleasant disposition...! (and there won't be too many dark blue Twelves there with ARIZONA license plates).

P.S.. Just saw a note from one of the event organizers - they are STILL accepting Packards...again....they say that ANY Packard is welcome ! (gawd...they are even letting "900's" come to this...what is the world coming to....! )

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One question I have is when did Packard switch to using a tri metal insert bearing? I've notice info, at least up to 1942, that list babbitt as the insert material.

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Packard Buff: A Packard is Packard if it was made by Packard on East Grand. A small percentage of Packards were more expensive than the other 98% produced. Now you take when the 120 was introduced in 1935 which was a beeter engineered car, the 120 or the so called senior Packard 12's. The 120 came with Safety flex front susupension, the new Safety Plus body, and Servo-Seale 4 wheel hydrolic brakes, and rubber mounts on the engine. So pelase tel me how the Packard 12 was a better car engineering wise than the 120's. You race Packard also, so has someone else also raced Packards in this chatroom his name is Jack Harlin. Now heres a fellow who raced Packards on racetracks here in Penna in the early and mid 50's. Jack raced his Packard's against people like the great Marshall Teague and Lee Petty. Mind you these Packards that he raced in where equiped with the so called lousy Ultramatic transmisions. Why you should have seen what he did to a 55 Clipper to make it into a track racer old Number 5. Now here is man that truely did hotrodding tricks to the straight eights and Packard V8's. So why don't you tell us about your great racing feats with your Packards. A mechanic that I worked with at a Ford Garage back in the 70's told about Buicks spinning rod bearings on the Penna Turnpike. He said that this mostly occured after a fresh oil change in a Buick.

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HI '31 and JI

regarding your question about bearings and rings for late 30's "big" Packards (my comments do not apply to the "juniors" - I no longer recall parts details.. been too long since I worked on em )

The "insert" rod-bearing introduced on all Packards in '35, and up until the "Senior" facilites were destroyed (from July '39 on ..ALL Packards evolved out of the Junior / "120" series) was a copper-lead bearing on a steel insert. At some point in time during that era, the rod bearing industry was excited about a silver-aluminum bearing material as even better than copper-lead for extremes of service. You see this still being supplied on radial aircraft engines. By the late 1930's Packard Parts Service offered a silver-aluminum insert as an alternate, and this appeared in parts books clear thru the mid 1940's. I do not know if these were used on the production line...none of the Twelves and "big" eights I ever worked on had em. I lack the competence to offer an opinon as to which is better - but...of interest, copper-lead remains the preferred choice for heavy duty automotive service even today. The Cat. 3126 turbo diesel in my "big rig" ( 29,000 lb. GVW, 60,000 lb. CTGVW,) has copper-lead "insert" type rod bearings.

As to rings, yes, by the late 1930's, all Packards were using a chrome-moly over-lay ring, which remains the choice for heavy duty service today.

'53 is correct that by the mid 1930's, Packard had pretty well "written off" supplying cars for the ultra rich, mistakingly believing the market for "super cars" had disappeared and would not return. Given the over-all excellence of the "big" Packards to anything anywhere near their price class, it is understandable why they did not bother to incur the expense to add technical details the kind of customer they were selling to in that price range.. might not even notice.

Packard's management's decision to focus development on the new lower priced cars was certainly consistent and made good sense. Sales, and RE-peat sales, showed Packard buyers in ANY price class knew they got an excellent car for the money. Granted, my being a Packard BUFF means I am biased towards ANY Packard...but..fact remains...the "120" was one HECK of a car for the money.

I have never seen comparitive "stopping difference" charts between "120" series cars equipped with hydraulic brakes, and "big" Packards equipped with mechanical brakes. Logically, the lighter car should stop faster. However, the power-boosted mechanical brakes on the "big" Packards were so superior to the ordinary cars of their era, I am sure if '53 could get "comparison rides" in PROPERLY MAINTAINED examples, he'd have a better understanding of why Packard consistantly sold TEN or many times MORE of its "big" cars to ANY of its competition, clear up until its declining reputation literally handed its market over to Cadillac. They are just "that nice" to drive.

Again, the ride and handling of pre-war Packards of ANY price range was well-known in the industry to be at least as good as, if not superior to its competition. As for the "big" Packards of the "solid axle" era, unless you really "rough em up", I don't think you would see a tremendous difference in either the ride or handling of a '36 Twelve and the '37, which had the "safety-flex" design ( which, as '53 notes, was introduced on the "junior" Packards three years earlier).

Under more severe driving conditions, the "safety flex" design's superiority becomes more obvious. First, you get a better "tire foot print" as each front wheel is better able to keep its "grip" on the road. Second, is the isolation of road imperfections from the frame. The reason why the frames of the '37 and later big cars could be so much more rigid, is that a car's frame no longer had to serve as part of the suspension system ( that is why they could discontinue those big heavy "isolater" bumpers for the '37 Twelve production run).

The '38 - '39 "big" Packards do handle a bit better than the previous year under really extreme conditions. At lower speeds, I suspect a "120" might handle better simply because it is lighter. All other things being relatively equal, the lighter car is going to be the better racer.

Self-appointed Packard "experts" who write those fancy "coffee table" books like to write that the '38 / '39 Twelves had a different and shorter chassis than the earlier "big" Packards. In some of her books, a well-known "Packard expert" even claims the "Super Eights" and Twelves used the same chassis. Of course this is all nonsence. In fact, NOTHING on the "120" cars would fit the larger Super Eight, and the Super Eight's chassis and running gear was no-where NEAR as big or heavy as the Twelves...the laws of physics...etc. ( but the bodies were identical on the S-8 except for the much higher quality trim on the Twelves) the "trick" on both the Super Eight and Twelve...that Packard used to get the EFFECT of moving the engine mass foward in relation to the centers of the front wheels, was to simply mount the front suspension further back on the frame. This improves "tracking-stability". Bottom line - again..Packard was popular...and sold cars..because people believed they got a great car for the money.

I agree with '53 that Packards from the late 1940's and early 1950's did occasionaly give a good accounting of themselves in racing. Sadly, Packard by then was pretty well "dead from the neck up" - lent no support to what could have been a sales boost. Hudsons with the same primitive "flat head" engine design that Packard was still using also did pretty well for a while, even tho Hudson had only about a 300 cu. in "six"...(although they had the vastly superior GM Hydramatic transmission). Before you wonder what a factory-supported team of eight cylinder Packards would have done, remember, they still had a weight penalty, due to the by then obsolete "L" head engine, which simply could not "breathe" like the modern short stroke V-8's in the Lincoln, Chrysler, and Cadillac.

No, '53..in answer to your question about racing....I never did any professional racing with my Packards. Oh...I had some pretty "racy" experiences IN them...but...that is another story...!

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Update:

Car is up and running.

What a difference in power now with new valve springs and valves. Also no more ticking.

I do though need to keep an ear open for a knock I hear on acceleration.

Tom

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NO NO NO. DO NOT RUN THIS MOTOR FOR ONE MINUTE UNTIL YOU HAVE ISLOATED THE KNOCK. DID YOU CHECK THE CRANK AND CRANK PINS, AND ROD BEARINGS AS WE SUGGESTED EARLIER ?

Engines in decent shape MUST not "knock". If you are LUCKY, the road bearing that is probably producing the "knock" has not yet chewed up the crank-pin. If you run the engine, you WILL mess up the crank-pin, and then have "bought into" a pretty expensive and time-consuming total engine tear-down and re-build, including, but not limited to the cost of having the counter-weights removed from the crank-shaft, so that the crank-pins can be "re ground" (crank-shaft fgrinding equipt. can't get into the crank-pins with those off-set counter-weights still on the crank-shaft).

The Packard Standard Eight that powers your car is typical of engines like it, designed for the driving conditions of the 1920's. Road speeds prior to the introduction of the "U.S. Highway" system in the late 20's, were quite low.

Given the miserable gasoline, compression ratios were low. This left engine designers with few options - strokes HAD to be long, and given the miserable babbit material available for bearings, crank-pin widths AND diameters had to be kept small so as not to "over speed" and "over heat" the bearing surfaces. To make things worse, "final drive" gear ratios were so low, that your car's motor, already crippled by the above design criteria, is spinning faster at 45 mph than a modern car's motor at 90+.

YOU ARE BEATING THAT MOTOR TO DEATH if you drive it much over 40 mph if it were brand new. The car is not designed for that. You need to use your head and make some changes if you want the motor to survive for even the most modest driving.

Elsewhere in these forums you will find a more detailed discussion on why cars of that era (again, the Packard Standard Eight was designed in the mid 1920's) had such awful rod bearings, and what you can do about it.

Best of luck

Perfidious

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  • 1 year later...

Have to bring this back to top again. I took the car out for a drive the other day and had alot of ticking. So I figured it was time to adjust the valves since I installed new valves and springs last July '03. Well would you know it I have two valves with broken springs again. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

These valves have dual springs. My question is can I just pull out the broken springs and run it on one spring or do i need the dual spring setup?

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Better to find out why the springs are breaking. Are the springs exact replicas of the originals in all dimensions including free length, coil diameter and number of turns? When the cam bumps the valve, do the coils bind on each other?

If the originals were single, why are you fooling around with double springs? That's usually a high RPM app so the valves don't bounce but can lead to accelerated valve train (cam lobe, rollers, etc.) wear. Are the springs proper metallurgy, the only way to tell this short of lab test is by buying from reputable manufacturer (as opposed to some jobber).

If you made valves, are the dimensions correct, i.e., are they free to move in the guides, do they bind, are they correct length, stem diameter correct and so on. If they're binding in the guides the springs won't be happy.

A reputable aftermarket camshaft company would have a broad selection of springs. You won't find a listing under 31 Packard but if you had your complete dimensions you might find modern springs to fit.

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BillP,

Thanks for the response.

The originals had dual springs.

I bought the springs from Kanter and the Valves came from Egge. All the dimensions were fine on springs and valves.

The valves move freely through the guides.

Could it be that the springs are binding when under load and that is why they broke?

Can I run with just one spring?

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If the original setup used dual springs, the last thing in the world I would contemplate would be to second-guess Colonel Vincent. There are probably enough miles on straight eight Packards over the years to demonstrate the wisdom of the design. I didn't know they used 2 springs per station.

If you suspect coil bind, you need to measure each spring in its' installed, compressed configuration. There ought to be 40 or 50 thou min between the coils. If this is a problem, it should be apparent without a lot of scientific scutinizing.

I'd take the head back off and pull the valves back out, see if they're bent, double check the dimensions, especially stem to guide clearance and OA length. Go through the rocker asemblies, make sure everything is in good working order, neither sloppy nor binding. Reassemble it all with light coat of engine oil.

Don't discount bad product. Those 2 companies are good suppliers and have served the hobby well. I don't where their engine parts come from or if there are the strict controls on quality that would have been in effect when your car was built. Call them and ask where the springs are made and out of what steel, how heat treated if at all, etc. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t. Here again, maybe those parts are better than original and the problem lies elsewhere.

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Guest imported_PackardV8

Since this is an unusual condition u need to check the spring TENSION with a valve spring tension tester. Its a rather simple tool and not real expensive.

Are the SAME springs breaking every time or do they break on different ports???

Determine if the springs have a top or bottom. Maybe they were installed upside down??? Make sure there are not some old shims left in the block.

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Guest imported_PackardV8

The dual springs were for engines that are run hard. Indian used dual springs on the "80". Noone ever puts them in any more. ALSO check to see if the spring is setting SQUARE on its seat and retainer.

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Guest imported_PackardV8

On second thot, forget about the spring tension testing for a while. CHECK the spring seat in the block. Some older engines used removable valve guides with a shoulder on the guide to act as a spring seat. If the shoulder is broken away either whole or in part it will prevent the spring from setting squarly thus resulting in breakage.

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It's been my experience with high performance apps that a proper valve spring usually only breaks when it is in coil bind. Since your Packard is (very) low rpm and you used legit (from reliable vendors) replacement parts, there has to be something else going on. Did you verify the installed height as correct? On every spring? Certainly testing the supplied springs at the actual installed and compressed height will show if there's some installation problem. Bottom line: look elsewhere than the springs themselves for the problem.

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All thanks for the replies. Sorry didn't get back to you all sooner had to take twin brother to doc's today for his follow up after his motorcycles accident.

The springs seem to be sitting up in the seats correctly. But it looks as is some of the springs may have twisted/turned. So the gaps between the two springs are tight. These springs were a pain in the you know what to put together. The keepers which screwed into the ends of the springs where such a pain to screw in. Took me a few long nights to get them right.

Well looks like I may need to disassemble her again? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JT,

Yes it is the inner spring that broke. Have you seen this before?

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I don't remember which ones broke originally because more then one of them were broken. But I do remember the rear cylinder intake was broken originally and that one is broken again. Guess I should of written down whichs ones were broken.

Can I run here on one spring since these are a pain to put togehter as two spring setup?

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Yesterday I went back to working on old Bessie to find that both springs are broken on the back valve. I look at how many old sets I had left and there were 9. So it looks like I had 6 valves that had broken springs to begin with.

Well I definitely will need to disassemble the engine again in order to replace the springs.

Has anyone out there encounter this before?

Is there some other setup I can use in place of the original retainers that hold the springs together?

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Seems to me you may not be assembling the springs and keepers correctly. We rebuilt a '31 840 engine about 3 years ago and I don't remember the spring installation being difficult. We have a '32 apart now, maybe I'll take a look at how they go together, unless you're sure you have yours installed correctly. Something basic must be wrong to keep breaking springs.

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Restorer32,

The problem I was having was screwing them into the keepers. It was tough to get them screwed all the way down on the keepers.

Can you take some pictures of your springs and post them so I can see if that they are the same setup as mine? I will take some of mine after I get the manifolds off and out of the way.

Would anyone have new keepers?

Thanks

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  • 1 month later...

Well I have not got much farther on Old Bessie have been busy doing other jobs around the old Homestead. I did manage to glance at her valve bay over the weekend and notice that one valve spring on Number 7 was wet. I dap a little on my finger and low and behold it is antifreeze. I glanced down into Number 7 and 6 cylinders and I can see some puddles of antifreeze. Hopefully I stopped running car soon enough or I could be been doing a rebuild instead.

Could this be a Head gasket leak or something worse?

Can I leave this go until I have time to work on her?

Any thoughts?

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I glanced down into Number 7 and 6 cylinders and I can see some puddles of antifreeze. </div></div>

Tom, do you mean the area in the valve galley or are you looking through the spark plug holes?

Were you loosing any coolant before it stopped running? Hopefully it is only a head gasket failure. How long has it been since you had head off?

I would not want to leave it sitting with water in the cylinders and would pull the head and have a look.

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Jt,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you mean the area in the valve galley or are you looking through the spark plug holes? [color:"blue"] <span style="font-weight: bold">Both places</span> </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were you loosing any coolant before it stopped running? [color:"blue"] <span style="font-weight: bold">Not that I was aware of</span> </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long has it been since you had head off?

[color:"blue"] <span style="font-weight: bold">July 2003 when I replaced the valves and springs</span> </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not want to leave it sitting with water in the cylinders and would pull the head and have a look. [color:"blue"] <span style="font-weight: bold">I was planning on pulling head anyways in order to replace the springs that have broken again. I did not want to pull head until I had time to R&R it because I didn't want it to sit over the winter with head off. Is it alright to leave head off during winter if I don't have enough time to get it back together?</span> </div></div>

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If you can not get the head back on right away, you can apply a thin coat of grease to the top of the block face and the cylinder bores with some oil coating the tops of the pistons to prevent rusting. but it does look like you have at least one broken spring in there. Where they new ones or the originals that have fractured from metal fatigue? or are the valves shorter than whats suppose to be in there, as it looks like the valve lash adjusters are quite a bit up from the lifter.

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