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Peter: A terrible thing happened today. A fellow I know who doesn't own a Full Classic became a member of the CCCA today. Would you like to guess who that person was. The CCCA must be really going down hill when they let somebody like me become a member.

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Next thing you know they will let 120's with fancy bodies in. CCCA stands for Classic Chevy Club of America, doesn't it?

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I was thinking of joining the CCCA, but any club that would have me as a member, I would not want to join, because their standards would be to low. grin.gif" border="0

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The CCCA is actually a fine car club. After visiting Ed in Florida Ireally got to found out what the CCCA had to offer. The informaion they have and share is really something. I prefer the membership inthe CCCA over any of the two national Packard Clubs. Actually why I don't belong to the Packard clubs is because they don't meet my standards to much game playing.

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Packard53,<BR> Could you elaborate on what you mean by "game playing"? I've been a member of PAC and the Mid-Atlantic Packards region for many years. Have received invitations to join CCCA; but have declined since I belong to AACA and PAC. I would spread myself too thin to join another. As it is, most of my involvement is with AACA.<P>jnp

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For Pack 53<P>I am confused....I think perhaps you have a reading disability. In an earlier post, I noted that in the formative years of the Club, there was DISCUSSION about membership being restricted to people who actually OWNED "classic" cars. I do not recall this was still being seriously discussed by the time I became active...around mid '55.

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Mr. Packard: One of the big things that bugs me about the Packard Clubs is the junior senior model thing. To me a PACKARD IS A PACKARD. It seems to me that with some of the so called upper crust in these clubs if you don't own a so called senior model you really don't have a Packard.

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Packard53,<BR> At the Frederick All Packard Swap Meet I talked to a couple from upstate New York who had a similar comment. They were talking with a group of Senior Packard owners who simply walked away from them when they mentioned that they had a Junior car. My strategy is to own examples of both! However, I have not experienced such snobbery. It only hurts the club. At our local AACA meets, I try to make everyone welcome and show an interest in their car whatever it might be. After all they have put a lot of time and effort into it; so why not share their pride of ownership?<P>jnp

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i'm not sure its snobbery in as much as it is pure disinterest or embarassment. The idea that a clipper, 110 or other such 'Jr' cars r nearly identlicle (at least in appearence) to the Sr. models strikes a nerve with most Sr. owners. This situation does not seem to be a prevalent among the 55-56 owners tho.

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So a guy "walked away" from you just because you admitted you didn't have a "Senior Packard".....gawd...well...look...people are people....and some pissle are more full of peep than others. Sorry they were so rude and stupid !<P>Personally, I would be proud of ANY Packard product I owned, and I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about what others think. Packard had a long and well-deserved reputation for dealing fairly and honestly with its customers, so that no matter WHAT price-range your Packard was in, you could be durn sure it was one heck of a car for the money.<P>Now...with that said...let's remember..the sentence A PACKARD IS A PACKARD is most certainly descriptive of the basic ideology and methodolgy of the Packard Motor Car Company. But....dont get carried away with it....remember....Packard gave the buyers of its EXPENSIVE cars THEIR money's worth too. Take, just as an example, the 1938 line-up. NOTHING to be ashamed about if you have a Packard Six or "Eight" ( 120 series). But...NOT A SINGLE PART in them will fit the larger "Senior" division parts. A worker hired on in the "junior division" wasnt even ALLOWED in the Senior Divison Final Assembly building until he had first proved himself on the "junior division" production line.<P>The "Senior Division" cars were bigger, faster, heavier, higher quality, more "car" in every respect. From the thickness and quality of the upholstery material, to the brakes and suspension, wheels, etc...everything was "guttier".<P>Of course they had to be...that is what the buyer paid for...and that is what he got ! To suggest otherwise, is to ignore the realities of what came out of the SEPARATE Packard factories...!<P>True, Packard "fumbled the ball" in the post-war years, and got what it deserved. But that IS what happened, and, sadly, it continued Packard's tradition of leading the industry ! Look at what has happened to Cadillac. Cadillac took over the leadership cars with bigger, more luxurious, better-built cars in the 1950's...then...as the 60's passed into history, started doing what Packard did, and its declining sales show the same kind of customer resistence that killed Packard. Will they "get the message" and start "getting it right" again..?<P>But again, I enjoy exchanging info. with all old buffs. My '38 Packard V-12 Formal Sedan makes some of these guy's cars look like junk...just as some of the people I know..have cars that make mine look like junk...it is all a matter of degree...bottom line..WHO CARES IF YOU ARE HAVING FUN !<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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John Packard: Here is another example that makes me VERY MAD. I just tried to get into the PAC web site. Being as I have WEBTV and not a computer Katz has made the site so that the average person as myself can't get into the site. The site was restrictive before but this really takes the cake. The site should be free and easy to get into so that people can see what Packard was about. The information in the site should be be easy to copy and read. Not put into little boxes and be read a few lines at a time.

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Pete: To start with, NOONE ever got their monies worth buying ANY high end car of ANY make at ANY time in history! The BEST buys in automobiles has been, in nearly ALL cases, the least elegant of the FULL SIZE models. The high-priced high-end models are indeed for the man who wants something different, special, and to some extent even exotic.

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For Unregist. V-8<P>So..you dont "think the buyers of high end cars got their money's worth"....eh...<P>Well...here's a "dare" for you.<P>Let's take a nice low priced car of your choice..made in 1938....and meet me in Needles, California, say...around 2:00 in the afternoon...pick a nice warm day in August. ....and let's race up the notorious car-killing "Kingman Grade" up to Kingman Arizona. How 'bout I give you a ten minute head start...!<P>Your choice...we can take the Interstate...or we can take the "senic" route..i.e. "Old U.S. Highway 66" up thru Goldroad and Oatman. <P>I will bring an ice chest, and my bone-stock '38 Packard V-12....(well...that isn't entirely true...my car has a final drive/rear axle ratio just a tad LOWER than could be ordered with those those fabulous 1930 734 Speedster series.....) So, in fairness, whatever low priced car you pick, can have any rear axle ratio you want...!<P>Oh yes...dont forget to bring your auto club card, and LOTS of those water bags....!<P>What do you think..."ready to rumble"...? Or admit the absurdity of your remark !<P>Here's a "hint" on where I stand...this is a direct quote from a 1938 Fortune Magazine advertismenet featuring "The Packard Twelve Formal Sedan For 1938"<P> " . . THE MAN OF POSITION SHOULD<BR> MAKE NO MISTAKE OF THIS FACT...THERE<BR> IS NO SUBSTIUTE FOR SIZE, WEIGHT AND<BR> POWER WHEN IT COMES TO MOTORING<BR> COMFORT, SAFETY, AND QUIET, OR, FOR<BR> THAT MATTER, WHEN IT COMES TO <BR> REFLECTING THE DIGNITY OF HIS SOCIAL<BR> POSITION......"<BR> <P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ<P>( P.S....that was then...today is today...when I am not terrorzing the <BR>neighbors on the truly rotten cow trails<BR>we call roads out here, in the Twelve...<BR>my OTHER car is a Toyota RAV 4 !....! )<P>And your damn right I'd rather be in my air conditioned Toyota on a really hot day...than my nearly 70 year old road locomotive...! ! !

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Peter: Packard was in that ad was talking about the safety of a Packard 12 WHAT A CROCK OF BULL THAT IS. The less expensive Packards of 1938 had ALL STEEL BODIES. These cars where a hell of alot safer than your ROLLING CHICKEN COUPE. You keep refering to size and power seems kinda of funny for man who owns a Packard 12 to own a tinker toy RAV 4. Back here in Central Penna those little four bangers dont cut the mustard in the mountains

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Pack 53<P>Horse feathers...you guys are going to tell us westerners about "mountains"? <BR>C'mon...man...our cows pile it higher than what YOU guys call mountains....!<P>Seriously, the little Toyota RAV 4 is a regular mountain goat, plowing thru mud and slime that has stopped my 4 wheel drive Suburban...for obvious reasons..the lighter car doesn't sink in and dig mud-holes. And even here in the high country ( we are just under 5,000 ft...it is already getting hot...and while the Packard Twelve had excellent ventilation, factory refrig. air was still 3 years away in '38 ).....!<P>Yes...about "composite" bodies....yes...I like your term "chicken coop"...because the fact is...in a roll-over, the dried out wood structure in any composite body is going to shatter - no question if I was going to roll over, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it in any of the "composite" bodied classics ! O.K..you got me...you got my "back to the wall" YES...if I was going to HAVE to roll..and had to choose between my Packard Twelve ( or any other heavy classic)...damn right I'd rather be in a "Briggs" Packard like yours !<P>Pete Hartmann

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Packard53,<BR> I agree that the PAC website is restrictive. Marshall seems to have a phobia about his material being pirated. I found the history about Packard very interesting; so I spent a few hours typing it in on my laptop while viewing it a box at a time online. I'm also disappointed with the forum. I have posted a number of queries and rarely get any response even though my post receives 50 or more hits. I surmise that the site is populated by lurkers. On the other hand, here on the AACA site I get responses within hours of a posting. I can't explain why the difference or perhaps it is my imagination!<BR>Pete Hartman,<BR> There you go again equating power and speed to satisfaction with a motor car! I thought that the hallmark of the Senior Packards was quiet and graceful motoring. By the thirties it had been a long time since Packard frequented the race tracks. Then in the post WWII period there was the Panther Daytona. Did Packard or anybody for that matter race the Senior Cars of the thirties?<BR>jnp

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Marshall does have a phobia about the material being pirated, as he has gone to car shows and found pictures that have been removed from his site being put on T-shirts, as well as persons using the pictures for there insurance companys, and then having there cat stolen...yes he does do a good job with the information. 54 Clipper Special (5482)

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Albert: I will say that Marshall is good with information. That is collecting from other good meaning people then treating it like it is his own. By making the PAweb site very user unfriendly and very restrictive. This information should be shared freely. If you wan to see how a good web site is run look up the Cadillac index then compair.

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For John N Packard ( regarding his question about racing )<P>Yes...you raise an interesting point..and I have no answer. Isn't human behavior odd...? One era has everyone featuring performance, then another era comes in with entirely different reference points... We ARE wierd creatures...arent we.<P>But you are WAY off base if you think Packard Corp. was ignoring performance. Packard knew what its customers expected, and DELIVERED !<P>For example, let's take a look at the Packard Twelve chassis from a "performance" standpoint, and see if we can catch a glimmer of Packard's corporate thinking.<P>MUCH stiffer springs than the Cadillac V-16 of the same year. ( I owned BOTH a near MINT..and I mean MINT Cadillac V-16 Empress Imperial Formal Sedan (the Mae West car), and there is NO question it is a MUCH "mushier" softer, smoother, quieter car than the Packard Twelve - is THAT why Packard Twelve out-sold the Cadillac V-16 TEN TIMES in that year...? )<P>BUT - look at the suspension of the Packard Twelve. MASSIVE rear swar bar. And not just a sway bar...also, a torsional cross arm bar. The lay-out of these additional ride control devices makes it clear (these things are USELESS and NOT ACTIVE during restrained "boulevard" style driving. And look at the MUCH larger brakes than ANYONE...ANYONE in the industry ! Look at the shock absorber valving.<P>We can conclude from this that Packard understood its products WOULD be "roughed up"...and "roughed up" HARD by some of its customers. <P>Now look at the engine. Modern "insert" type connecting rod bearings introduced in 1935 had elminated the "rod bearing failure at high speed" problem.<P>But look...the Packard Twelve had BOTH full flow oil FILTERING..and full flow oil COOLING....think...what on earth would you want full flow oil COOLING for. What other mfg. did that...? This was clearly a sign Packard was thinking HIGH performance...BLINDING speed for hour after hour. <P>"Do The Math" on the Packard Twelve cooling system...compare its water capacity, water pump size, and even the size of the radiator hose outlets, on, for example, the Cad V-16 or the last Pierce Arrows. Of course NO properly maintained luxury automobile is going to over-heat under normal hot weather fast driving....but c'mon now...LOOK at the EXTRA size and capacity of the Packard Twelve cooling system...dosnt take much imagination to know what they were thinking. PERFORMANCE....HIGH performance....wanna know how good it works....YOU pick the 1938 comporable car, and meet me on the Kingman Grade coming up from Needles to Kingman, Ariz....say...around 2:00 pm on a nice warm August day....and we'll have a little race...!<P>I think your question shows what the corporate attitude at Packard was, even as the "golden years" were coming to a close. While the automotive CULTURE had dropped its emphasis on high performance, in the back-rooms of Packard Engineering, it was MOST CERTAINLY still there. <P>Pete Hartmann

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