1957 buick 364 starter advice

[buicknewbee]

I am in need of a rebuilt starter. I haven't checked with napa yet but does anyone have any suggestions as to where to get one? Car quest can't get one and i have a feeling this could be a real pain sourcing one.

Thanks

Edited September 19, 2016 by buicknewbee (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Just have yours rebuilt at a local starter/alternator place.

[buicknewbee]

Im in lima ohio which has no such place and hasn't in years. I might be able to take it to Columbus or Dayton, but no idea of a reputable place.

[old-tank]

Ask one  of the repair shops or tractor dealers where they get theirs done...they may be willing to handle the turn around.

[Beemon]

You could attempt to rebuild it yourself, they're very simple to understand and don't require much effort to get working. The only two things you can't get readily over the counter is the armature and Bendix, but you can find the Bendix relatively easy.  What's wrong with your starter right now? 

[Ttotired]

This ones easy, I had to replace the starter on my 364 and couldnt find one, but what I did find is that the international scout has almost the exact same starter, only difference is the mounting flange on the inter starter is slightly larger, so I used the nose cone from my starter and its sorted.

One other difference is the bolt hole that holds the battery cable to the side of the starter is also missing

 

Anyway, the starter # is S-1042 and is a "Dixie" part and it says they have 3 in stock

http://www.buyautopartsonline.ca/catalog-1/itemdetail/dixie-electric/s-1042

Good luck

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, buicknewbee said:

I am in need of a rebuilt starter. I haven't checked with napa yet but does anyone have any suggestions as to where to get one? Car quest can't get one and i have a feeling this could be a real pain sourcing one.

Thanks

Greetings

          PM me if that doesn't work, I can have one checked out and if it's good to go, yay! Likely too! Original 364 Buick starter. Only need one?

[g-g-g0]

We have a very good rebuilder (starters, generators and water pumps) in South Bend, IN 574 232 5557 Jim or Dan. They do very good work.

 

Gary

[buicknewbee]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 0:54 PM, Beemon said:

  What's wrong with your starter right now? 

It starts fine when it is cold or after it has cooled down for an hour after a good run. But when it is hot it acts like it just doesn't engage. Pops in and out a lot with no turning what so ever. I thought it may be the solenoid so changed it since it was $20 or so. I thought it was the culprit, but still when it runs for a bit and then immediately try starting it again, it repeats the in and out. I'm certain the starter is weak and all the connections are tight and clean.

I'm not sure how I feel about installing a starter from another brand. It's not like it's a show car, but keeping options open since they are virtually nonexistent at parts stores.  

[buicknewbee]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 5:50 PM, Ttotired said:

This ones easy, I had to replace the starter on my 364 and couldnt find one, but what I did find is that the international scout has almost the exact same starter, only difference is the mounting flange on the inter starter is slightly larger, so I used the nose cone from my starter and its sorted.

One other difference is the bolt hole that holds the battery cable to the side of the starter is also missing

 

Anyway, the starter # is S-1042 and is a "Dixie" part and it says they have 3 in stock

http://www.buyautopartsonline.ca/catalog-1/itemdetail/dixie-electric/s-1042

Good luck

 

 

Funny how the description states its a reman with remanufactured parts but then at the bottom it states contains no remanufactured components.

[Beemon]

Did you have exhaust work done? How close is the starter to the exhaust pipe? Heat is the #1 enemy of electronics. I thought I had an issue with my generator because on a hot day I had poor charging, but now that it's cooled down, it charges fine. It could be you have too much ambient heat from the exhaust that it's putting fatigue on your starter. If it is weak, then all you need to do is pull it out and install new brushes and rub the armature with scotch Brite.

 

Before you do anything costly, check the exhaust pipe in relation to the starter. If your starter was weak, it would have a difficult time starting the engine hot or cold, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Starter relay?

[Bill Stoneberg]

Lima Ohio,  Is Shawver still running a Tractor Dealer there ?

[old-tank]

10 hours ago, old-tank said:

Starter relay?

More time to reply...

To test apply 12V+ to the black wire on the starter relay (goes to the solenoid) when it is acting up.  If it starts normally, it is probably the starter relay...if no change, then pull the starter.

[buicknewbee]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:33 AM, Bill Stoneberg said:

Lima Ohio,  Is Shawver still running a Tractor Dealer there ?

Probably not because I have not heard of them.

[buicknewbee]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:14 AM, old-tank said:

Starter relay?

Replaced it already amd it's not at fault.

[buicknewbee]

On 9/20/2016 at 10:17 PM, Beemon said:

Did you have exhaust work done? How close is the starter to the exhaust pipe? Heat is the #1 enemy of electronics. I thought I had an issue with my generator because on a hot day I had poor charging, but now that it's cooled down, it charges fine. It could be you have too much ambient heat from the exhaust that it's putting fatigue on your starter. If it is weak, then all you need to do is pull it out and install new brushes and rub the armature with scotch Brite.

 

Before you do anything costly, check the exhaust pipe in relation to the starter. If your starter was weak, it would have a difficult time starting the engine hot or cold, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

The exhaust is close to the starter. I posted pictures of it before. Maybe I should wrap it in some fiberglass  heat wrap first and see what comes of it.

[Ttotired]

On the "Reman" starter, I think they have to call them that because they are not genuine delco starters, they are direct copies/remanufactured, thats why it says they are all new parts

 

That starter in the picture above is not that old by the look of it.

Your description of the fault is hard for me to get my head around, saying it goes in and out, do you mean "machine gunning"?

If so, your battery is most likely the fault or your battery cables

If you mean the starter is spinning, but the engine isnt and it catches sometimes, I think thats a pinion problem (In the starter)

If it screams at you when you go to crank and turning the engine by hand a bit first makes it better, then worn teeth on the flywheel

 

The only other thing and I have seen this before is the pivot pin for the fork being missing, this can cause all sorts of fun things to happen.

The pin should be visible on the front (back really, but I always refer to the nose as the front) of the casting between the solenoid and the main starter casing. It is retained by either a nut but most commonly, a circlip

 

 

[Beemon]

2 hours ago, buicknewbee said:

The exhaust is close to the starter. I posted pictures of it before. Maybe I should wrap it in some fiberglass  heat wrap first and see what comes of it.

 

The exhaust doesn't seem to be original, it's not all orange. Try wrapping it up around the starter. My dad went through three starters after an exhaust job back in the late 90s when he did his 1982 Chev pickup 502 build and he solved his starter problem with exhaust wrap.

 

1 hour ago, Ttotired said:

That starter in the picture above is not that old by the look of it.

Your description of the fault is hard for me to get my head around, saying it goes in and out, do you mean "machine gunning"?

If so, your battery is most likely the fault or your battery cables

If you mean the starter is spinning, but the engine isnt and it catches sometimes, I think thats a pinion problem (In the starter)

If it screams at you when you go to crank and turning the engine by hand a bit first makes it better, then worn teeth on the flywheel

 

Ttotired also brings up a good point. Since you replaced the solenoid, I don't think it's a severe electrical issue because the solenoid controls the entire starter. Check the pig tails for voltage conditions. To start, I believe there can be no less than 12.5V at the solenoid. When was the last time the battery was replaced?

 

Old-tank also posted to check the starter relay in post #14. If it doesn't send 12.5V through the relay after being hot when trying to crank the engine over, then it's the relay that's at fault.

 

Furthermore, you can check the condition of the starter by jumping certain contacts. If you jump 12.5V to the armature, the starter should spin without engaging. If you jump 12.5V to the solenoid, it should throw out without engaging the armature.

[buicknewbee]

On 9/20/2016 at 10:17 PM, Beemon said:

Did you have exhaust work done? How close is the starter to the exhaust pipe? Heat is the #1 enemy of electronics. I thought I had an issue with my generator because on a hot day I had poor charging, but now that it's cooled down, it charges fine. It could be you have too much ambient heat from the exhaust that it's putting fatigue on your starter. If it is weak, then all you need to do is pull it out and install new brushes and rub the armature with scotch Brite.

 

Before you do anything costly, check the exhaust pipe in relation to the starter. If your starter was weak, it would have a difficult time starting the engine hot or cold, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

The exhaust is close to the starter. I posted pictures of it before. Maybe I should wrap it in some fiberglass  heat wrap first and see what comes of it. The battery is only about 2 years old and it checks out fine. But like I said before it starts just fine when its cold, but after running for a bit , shut it down and start it again 5 minutes later it won't start. One gent used the term machine gun. That sounds like a good description.  I'll  see if I  can post a video of it. 

[buick man]

… buicknewbee, for what it's worth we have had Five 1957 Buicks to date, a Special, a Century Convertible, a Century Caballero, a Roadmaster Coupe and a Roadmaster Model 75  and never have found the need to wrap the exhaust pipe header near the starter and neither did Buick as far as we know ,,,

[60FlatTop]

Interesting place for an exhaust clamp, did someone fabricate a dual exhaust system for the car?

Bernie

[smithbrother]

Make sure exhaust wrap has reflective outer covering, just plane fiberglass wrap won't deflect the heat away from the starter, IMO.

 

NAPA stores sell a starter wrap. 

 

Dale in Indy

Edited September 24, 2016 by smithbrother (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

The first place I saw the "wrap" material was from ThermoTec.  Later, they added the "pocket" starter "wrap" item.

 

I haven't really figured out why it seems that certain Chevrolet motors' starters seemed so prone to "hot no/weak start" situations!  The heat shields Chevy had for their big block starter applications seemed more "token" than substantive, to me.  The heat shields were attached to the solenoid, typically, shielding only it.  In some respects, they might end up being more of a "heat sink" than a "heat deflector", possibly?

 

The ONE time I had a heat-related "no start" issue on my '77 Camaro 305, it turned out to be a negative battery cable with an internal "fault".  When the fault was operational, it lost 1/2 volt between the battery and ANY place I would check the voltage.  Otherwise, NO voltage loss in the cable.  It was so random that I bought a digital meter to check things "as they were happening".  I replaced that OEM cable and the issue ended.

 

In GM-chassis motorhome applications, GM put out a TSB on using a Ford-style starter solenoid as a remote-mount (cooler) alternative.  This is always an option.

 

A "rebuilt" starter can mean that only the failed parts are replaced, whereas a "reman" assembly would have all parts replaced with NEW items (other than the case itself) as a mater of course.  Although new, the quality of the parts used could still be questioned.  One reason to specify that all parts replaced are of AT LEAST OEM-level quality AND a reason to purchase from an OEM vendor.

 

IF there might be a local rebuilder that does good work, that can be an option too, as in prior times.  Only thing is that lack of a nation-wide parts/labor warranty (with supporting documentation).  IF that local rebuilder has been around "for ever", then they should know what's good and re-useable and what should be replaced.  Their business relies upon them doing great work at reasonable prices . . . that holds up over the long run.

 

That "machine gun" sound was probably from the solenoid cycling due to low voltage.  If adding another vehicle's charging system into the mix, via jumper cables, stopped it, then a "voltage" situation exists somewhere on your vehicle.  Either a marginal charging system (or individual component), poor electrical cable connections, failed battery cables, or combinations thereof.  Also check the internal electrics of the starter itself! 

 

On the Delco starters, there were generally two lengths.  The length that needs a brass spacer bushing between the lug that attaches to the end of the solenoid mid-length of the outer case is the "HD" version.  No bushing, the "standard" version.  One "basic" main housing that goes many places, defined by the end housing and bolt pattern.

 

It's ALWAYS important that the starter attaching bolts be genuine starter bolts, torqued to the necessary tightness.  On many Chevrolet applications, there was usually a little stud sticking out on the "back end" of the starter.  This was used to attach a "starter brace" to the engine block, to further stabilize the starter to prevent it from "cocking" when the starter was engaged and the starter bolts not being tight enough to prevent such.  Diesels, especially need these!  With continued looseness, the end housing can crack as can the bolt holes in the block (as many GM and Ford diesel pickup owners discovered!).

 

Performing all of these starter support system checks, adjustments, cleanings can take some time to complete.  Take the battery terminals apart from the battery, clean, reinstall, for example.  A connection can look good at first glance and still have an internal coating which compromises current transfer, as I found out once.  "Volts" can still pass, but apparently "amps" will be decreased or significantly hindered.  Just my observation.  REMEBER, TOO, that the charging system goes THROUGH the bulkhead connector on the cowl!!!  There are connections within THAT connection which can degrade with time.  A somewhat overlooked location for voltage loss and poor connections.

 

NTX5467

Edited September 25, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)