Coolant question

[tomcarnut]

I recently inherited some early cars from my father who passed last year. They were in a heated garage. In two brass cars he used water in the summer with a Napa corrosion additive and kerosene in the winter as they were not driven. In a Flathead Ford he used water and the Corrosion additive but in the winter he just drained while the engine was hot. My building is not heated and will freeze in the winter. He did not used anti freeze due to the babbit bearings which can be destroyed by antifreeze.  I know everyone has an opinion on this. I know Evans is option but a bit pricy for multiple cars and raises the boiling point and operating temps quite a bit.  I put in distilled water and the corrosion additive this spring with no issues but need to think about the winter as my pole barn is unheated. I recently drove the 1911 Model T Ford 200 miles this past weekend on T tour that has had kerosene in the winter for years. It did overheat the first day after 10 miles( most it had been driven with new engine with maybe 150 miles over 15 years) Turned out the spark advance rod was not set right being retarded somewhat.  A quick adjustment to rod by a T expert solved the overheating and no boiling or leaks for the remaining 200 miles.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio

[DavidMc]

Just one comment on the Evans product, it is not suitable for your brass cars unless they have water pumps.  The product does not work with thermo-syphon cooling.  

[A. Ballard 35R]

Suggest that you simply drain the radiator and water pump making sure that no water is left in a place where freezing could do damage. If uncertain, clear system with compressed air.

[Rusty_OToole]

Check for drain cocks on the engine, some cars do not drain completely from the rad. You can drain the rad and still crack the block. Chrysler straight six flatheads are like that, you have to drain the block with a cock on the left side.

[Taylormade]

How would Babbitt bearings be destroyed by anti-freeze?  A blown head gasket and the anti-freeze getting into the oil?  I drove my 32 Dodge for years with Babbitt bearings and anti-freeze with no problems.

[Spinneyhill]

I am ambivalent about draining a cooling system. When you do that, it remains wet inside and you have introduced air with oxygen. If you have dissimilar metals electrically connected in the cooling system, you will get galvanic corrosion. Steel and cast iron components are dissimilar enough. Any brass temperature senders, for example, will promote corrosion of the steel around it. Another would be any inserted cooling distribution tubes. If you have a water pump, you have a good steel shaft, a cast steel impeller (probably a different metal to the block and head) and probably a brass or bronze bush. The good steel shaft will corrode because of the presence of the cast impeller and especially the brass bush.

 

I also can't think of any Babbitt bearings in a cooling system, running in coolant. And anyway, I don't believe ethylene glycol attacks Babbit. OLD ethylene glycol might. With usage and time it breaks down and acids form. Then it attacks the inside of the cooling system. Changing it at two to three year intervals fixes that problem. But where is the Babbitt in the cooling system?

 

I think it is an "old wives' tale".

1. Modern cars use Babbitt bearings. Yes, thin layers of Babbitt on steel shells. And they use antifreeze.

2. If the coolant came into your engine oil and thence the bearings what would happen? Yes, you would wipe the bearings coz there is no lubrication. Yep, that will destroy the Babbitt, not the antifreeze.

3. Antifreeze came on the market in late 19 teens. Model Ts were in production to 1927. It was used in them as well as earlier engines of all types.

 

Worry more about galvanic corrosion. Get some anti-corrosion antifreeze mix in there and leave it there. Change it at 3-yearly intervals.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[tomcarnut]

Thanks, for the responses. The Babbitt issue I have heard is when there is a leak in the cooling system and it gets on the Babbitt that Ethylene Glycol will Destroy the Babbitt . Propylene Glycol will not according to some(a prewar owner who post on this sometimes has Babbitt bearing in glass jar for years with Propylene Glycol) but is very expensive given all the cars I have and some like the 36 Ford takes 21 quarts and allows higher operating temps. I have tried to use the old Green Ethylene Glycol(Inorganic I believe) in my 50's and 60's cars mixed 50/50 with distilled water. In the Prewar Cars and brass, is there any issue running with distilled water/anti-corrosion additives in the summer and kerosene in the winter when the car is not driven. (My Dad reused the Kerosene for several years) One of the other benefits with water is easy to clean up on a brass radiator vs anti-freeze.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom Muth

[Matt Harwood]

It's hard to know what anti-freeze to use in an old car. Color is not a reliable indicator anymore and they've made so many changes to the formulas that nothing is like it used to be. You can go crazy reading about the various types available and what is recommended for an old car. The babbit/bearing issue is real because the ethylene glycol will score bearing surfaces if you have a head gasket failure where coolant can get into the crankcase. I worry about that.

 

All that said, I think you should stick to things that were made to do various jobs. That means no kerosene as a coolant. There are much better choices today and since kerosene and water don't mix, I'm not sure it offers any freeze protection at all. Kerosene was a do-all kind of thing back in the 1920s and 1930s, but we've come a long way since then. Use the right tool for the job, even though it's hard to know what the right tool might be.

 

I will say (this is NOT an endorsement, by the way) that I use Evans Coolant in my 1929 Cadillac and will probably switch the '41 Buick Limited over to the stuff this winter since I need to change the water pump anyway. It's a little fussy to use initially (you have to get the cooling system as dry and empty as possible) and it does show warmer temperatures on your gauge (which only means it's working properly by pulling more heat out of the metal and putting it into the coolant), but I like the fact that it won't harm bearings if it gets into the oil, it's permanent, and it doesn't boil over. The '41 Buick, for instance, will puke a little coolant every time I stop after a long high-speed run. That's because the coolant expands and goes out the overflow tube. The Evans doesn't expand so it never pukes. My '29 Cadillac has never puked once after I got the level right. Put it in and forget it forever--that's kind of nice. If your car leaks coolant or has other issues, the Evans won't cure it, but I've been satisfied with it and it works as advertised and doesn't have the risks associated with the various OAT/organic/long-life/whatever variations that are available today. It works and it's harmless, albeit expensive.

 

There's a good article somewhere on the internet that discusses anti-freeze in old cars but my Google-Fu seems weak today and I can't find it. Track that down and it'll give you some insights. Don't buy just based on color or brand, there are so many other variables that it'll give you a headache, but at least you'll be able to narrow down the right stuff to use.

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Spinneyhill]

This article says to NOT use Organic Additive Technology antifreeze because it attacks gaskets etc. No mention of attacking metal such as Babbitt.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/288065.html?1336871099

Use Inorganic Additive Technology.

 

I am still very skeptical that ethylene glycol scores Babbitt. Lack of lubrication will cause that. Water with or without E.G. is bad news in a bearing. The oil will float on coolant and if you have a pump, it will pick up water below the oil, if there is enough water in there. A splash feed system would be a haze of oil and water in the crankcase so again, it could be intermittently running in water. Whether E.G. is in the water seems irrelevant to me.

 

As for a higher running temp. on the gauge meaning cooling is more effective with this product than without, I don't believe it. A higher running temperature surely means the cooling is not as effective as it should be. Note that the specific heat @ 90 °C of Evans coolant is 2633 J/Kg.K, while water is 4181 J/kg.K @ 100 °C. Water as steam at 100 °C has specific heat 2080 J/kg.K. This means water will remove significantly more energy from the engine when heated to the same temp. as an equal mass of Evans coolant. Evans is in fact not a lot better than steam, contrary to their claims. The specific heat of kerosene is 2010 J/kg.K, similar to steam.

 

What is the benefit of distilled water? It is oxygenated after five minutes running so there is no corrosion resistance benefit. It does have no minerals in it, so could be beneficial in areas of hard water. You could equally collect rain water and after filtering to remove the dust, use that.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Guest]

Just remember that water is nature's most perfect solvent.  It will dissolve anything.  The moment distilled water is collected and put into a container it is not pure water anymore.  It is already starting to dissolve it's container.

[Restorer32]

The only advantage to Evans coolant is its higher boiling point. It is no more efficient at heat transfer than any number of other coolants and far less efficient than plain water. If boil over bothers you more than having your engine run significantly hotter than it was designed to then go for it. Seems to me that any coolant that allows an engine to run hotter without boiling over can only promote vapor lock and assorted other maladies.

[Matt Harwood]

45 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

The only advantage to Evans coolant is its higher boiling point. It is no more efficient at heat transfer than any number of other coolants and far less efficient than plain water. If boil over bothers you more than having your engine run significantly hotter than it was designed to then go for it. Seems to me that any coolant that allows an engine to run hotter without boiling over can only promote vapor lock and assorted other maladies.

 

I'm not so sure about that. I'll agree that water is by far the best at thermal conductivity and will work better than any coolant in terms of heat transfer, but water has a lot of liabilities, too, even if you're putting in your own anti-corrosion additives and water pump lube. While I'm seeing higher temperatures on the gauge of my 1929 Cadillac, I'm not sure that's because the engine itself is hotter. The theory is that since the Evans doesn't boil, you don't get steam pockets inside the block as you might with water with regular antifreeze, and therefore there's more surface area and it's pulling more heat out of the block and putting it into the coolant (and radiator) where it belongs. I've been using it in my Cadillac for two years, which admittedly has a radiator the size of a Kenworth, and operating temps went from an average of about 160 degrees to 170. Can I say for sure that's what's going on inside? No, and that change in temperature could also be attributed to it being less efficient, not more. I honestly don't know and I don't know how to quantify or measure the mechanism causing that increase. What I do like is that it doesn't boil over, doesn't puke, and I don't have to worry about it in the winter. Did I or didn't I top it off before the garage froze? With Evans, it's always protected. It's in there, it doesn't wear out, the additives don't expire (there are none), it doesn't boil or freeze, it doesn't have any galvanic reaction with metal parts so nothing rusts inside, and my water pump has stopped leaking rusty-looking coolant all the time. Those are all virtues that I'm willing to receive in trade for the extra 10 degrees showing on my gauge, which aren't reflected in increased vapor lock issues or anything like that. Car drives exactly the same as ever.

 

I don't know if it's better and I'm not certainly recommending it specifically for the purposes of this discussion. I'm a user and I'm satisfied, that's all. I haven't had the catastrophic engine explosions that some people claim Evans causes (how, I don't know, but the stories persist just as they do with synthetic oil), but it works as advertised in my old car and I'll be adding it to a second car this winter. I don't have to worry about blue or green or red colors, IAT or OAT, acidic or non-acidic, or long life or regular (whatever that might be). I pour it in and forget it. I have enough fussing to do on my old cars, taking this bit of fussing off the list is OK by me.

[Restorer32]

Evans coolant boils at 375 degrees. If some malfunction occurs in your engine causing it to severely overheat how would you know in the absence of an accurate gauge? At what temp would permanent damage begin to occur?  I must admit we have virtually no personal experience with it, just my inborn skepticism regarding any product that appears to be too good to be true, but I can certainly be convinced. Actually, now that I know that the FAA recommends its use in water cooled aircraft I have fewer doubts. We had a customer who tried it in a '21 Silver Ghost and had nothing but problems but maybe he didn't remove every last trace of water from the system before installing the Evans.

[Spinneyhill]

I have done some reading around coolants.

 

Propylene Glycol is only used because it is less toxic than ethylene glycol. It is less effective as an antifreeze. Propylene glycol oxidises when exposed to air and heat, forming lactic acid. It must be suitably inhibited to prevent corrosion. Biological fouling also occurs with PG.

 

The ONLY evidence I have been able to find about Organic Acid Technology (OAT) and Hybrid OAT (HOAT) causing problems was with coolants containing 2-EHA as an anti-corrosive agent. Unfortunately this chemical is also a plasticiser and has an affinity for nylon 6,6 and silicon rubber. It apparently damaged intake manifold gaskets in some GM models and some Rolls Royce engines.

 

My conclusion is there is no problem with almost any antifreeze-anticorrosive additive in our old engines because we have no nylon or silicon rubber as they were built. If you have used modern seals including silicon rubber or nylon, then a bit more investigation is necessary. Modern engines are much more difficult to protect than old because they include aluminium (top of the galvanic scale) and magnesium (above Al and zinc at the top of the galvanic series) so the inhibitors are pretty good.

 

As far as EG attacking babbitt, I believe it was erosion caused by WATER in the oil, i.e. NO LUBRICATION. The EG is coincidental.

 

It seems to me that Volume for volume Evans coolant is about 62% as efficient as water at removing heat energy. Thus to keep your engine temperature the same, you would need more than 50% more coolant flowing past the hot spots using Evans. Your water pump will have to have been designed with a fair bit of reserve capacity! If sufficient coolant is not available, the rate of heat removal will be insufficient to keep the temp. down and the engine will run hotter, at a temperature in equilibrium when the rate of heat generation matches the rate of heat removal in the cooling system. The up side of this is that a hotter running engine is more efficient than a cooler running engine - which is why modern engines run hotter than older engines. The flip side is that the cooling system needs to be in good operating condition to prevent overheating in difficult conditions, like a hard run on a very hot day or idling along on a very hot day. That is, there is not much reserve capacity.

[Spinneyhill]

The advice from Penrite's tech. rep. is to not mix OAT with HOAT or IAT antifreezes, particularly silicate-free OAT antifreezes. Mixing anti-corrosion packages can lead to loss of corrosion protection. He didn't mention the problem with attacking gaskets etc..

 

Basically, he said we don't need to recent OAT antifreeze and recommended their 7-year AFAB (anti-freeze anti-boil), a HOAT product. The basis of it is Glysantin from BASF.

[tomcarnut]

Thanks all to the reply's from this old post. I ended up using Autozone conventional Green (inorganic) with distilled water. The 36 Ford and 57 TBird had no issues so far. The 1911 Ford had some serious coolant leak out somewhere over the winter but seems fine now. I think it was at a hose connection.  I did check the oil for coolant but seemed fine.   I added coolant and started it this weekend and no leaks yet but have not checked since cool down. The 1912 Buick had some very small leaks somewhere over the winter. This car had a ground up restoration about 20 years ago but never sorted out. Have not attempted to start as it had some carb issues the last time about 8 years ago.

 

Tom Muth

[Rusty_OToole]

Reverse osmosis water is nearly as pure as distilled, and cheaper. I pay $3 for 5 gallons in my own container. Places that sell water softeners and water purification systems usually have it "on tap".

[Frank DuVal]

There is an engineering blunder if one thinks the stuff flowing through the "cooling system" being warmer makes the metal parts of an engine cooler. The coolest part of the engine is the cooling system, by definition (OK, maybe not counting the bottom of the oil pan, so far removed form the cooling system, I am speaking of the things cooled by the cooling system). So the transfer of heat from the combustion chamber to the cooling system cannot get better if the coolant is warmer. Oil is also a coolant, but unless there are fins on the oil pan, it does not do as much as the cooling system.

 

As to why babbitt bearings and anti-freeze do not go well together, I would think it was because anti-freeze is not a recommended lubricant. Ever pulled a dipstick on a car with a failed head gasket? Baby $%$# color and sticky. Now, why worry only about antique cars that have poured babbitt bearings, since most all cars have babbitt bearings! That is the white looking metal on the shell bearings in most very car engine! If there was worry about anti-freeze damaging babbitt, no manufacturer would use it!

[Guest]

There are many more "old wives tales" than there are old wives.

[oily rag]

Kerosene was used by people during the great depression and never recommended by mechanics because of the fire hazard. 

[Guest]

The cross flow rad on my Pontiac was designed for using alcohol as antifreeze.  The rad is only filled to cover the inlet hose (half way up on the left).  The top of the rad is empty and when the alcohol evaporates it collects in the top and condenses and re mixes with the water.

[Spinneyhill]

3 hours ago, Tinindian said:

The cross flow rad on my Pontiac was designed for using alcohol as antifreeze.  The rad is only filled to cover the inlet hose (half way up on the left).  The top of the rad is empty and when the alcohol evaporates it collects in the top and condenses and re mixes with the water.

 

Pardon? The top of the radiator is empty to allow for expansion of the coolant when it gets hot.

 

The boiling point is of EG is 197°C so not much evaporates before then. If it did, it would all flow out the overflow and be lost. It is not. According to my reading, it is the corrosion inhibitors that break down with time, causing the AFAB to require replacing at intervals. EG+water raises the boiling point of the water too.

[Guest]

Spinneyhill you are wrong. The top of a Pontiac Cross Flow radiator is NOT empty to allow for expansion. The top of a Pontiac cross flow radiator holds a gallon and a half of liquid.  You do not need a gallon space for expansion of 2 gallons of coolant.  The description that I posted is a paraphrase from the operators manual.  I have 4 manuals covering late 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931 and the rad is basically the same I assume 1932 would also be the same.  I have also read this explanation in other GM Pontiac literature.

In my post I wasn't talking about corrosion inhibitors.  I was talking about 1930's technology when many people drained their rads every evening or only filled them when they were using their car.  As was mentioned kerosene was often used and was dangerous. The manual also suggest not to use calcium or magnesium chloride, sodium silicate, honey, glucose or oil solutions.  Alcohol was cheap except that in most radiators (vertical flow) it would gradually boil off and you would have no protection.  The Pontiac "Cross flow" radiator was designed to condense this alcohol that boiled off.

On my car I use modern antifreeze and change it every second or third year.  Using the fact that as long as the top hose is covered with coolant there is sufficient cooling that is as high as I fill my rad.  I have been from -54 degrees to +110 my car and have never (since I got my new rad in 1962) had to add coolant even with the slight weep that the cotton packing type of seal on the water pump allows.  I don't even test my antifreeze mixture, it's 50/50 when I put it in and I dump it out after 24-30,000 miles later.

This system was designed by the engineers of General Motors (the same ones that created the Cadillac "the standard of the world").

[Spinneyhill]

My apology. So what kind of alcohol did they use?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Alcohol antifreezes were based on methanol, Zerone was the methanol companion product to Zerex which was ethylene glycol.  Methanol-based antifreezes were still commercially available and used into the early 1950s.  in addition to having to replenish frequently due to boil-off or evaporation, another downside was their damage to paint.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Guest]

The manual says "denatured" 

My uncle used the home brew that he made, in all of his different cars.  I think that was especially dangerous since he was prone to taste test it to determine what the alcohol content was.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Grimy]

DEnatured alcohol is poisonous, unlike GOOD NATURED alcohol intended for human consumption....

[Spinneyhill]

5 hours ago, Grimy said:

DEnatured alcohol is poisonous, unlike GOOD NATURED alcohol intended for human consumption....

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, ALL alcohol is toxic to humans. In small quantities the liver can break it down. Larger quantities damage the liver, esp. over a long period.

[Guest]

My Uncle that learned that the hard way.  Tea at mealtime was 1/2 tea and 1/2 home brew, all other beverages at all times were straight home brew.  It was too bad it didn't affect his brain much.  His last ten years were pure hell.

[Spinneyhill]

Methanol antifreeze seems problematical. Yes methanol freezes at -98°C, but it boils at 69°C so boils off as an engine runs. So as the coolant expands into the upper radiator of that Pontiac, it forces out the gas phase methanol through the overflow tube. It would only condense back into the water if the top of the radiator was at less than 69°C and would immediately vaporise again as the water is likely to be about 80°C. And the vapour expelled will be flammable so you could have a nice fire on the end of your overflow tube ...

 

So while the Pontiac manual says the top space it is to condense methanol antifreeze, it seems to me there will be little benefit and the methanol will need replenishing pretty much as frequently as if it were a "normal" radiator.

 

Or does mixing with water raise it's boiling point? No, it lowers the boiling point of the solution. See this chart from

http://www.methanol.org/methanol-properties/

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Guest]

My experience using ethylene glycol antifreeze was that the engine warmed up and the bottom half of the rad (where there was coolant) was hot.  Not ever having used alcohol I don't know how quick the vapour would condense.  Maybe next time I am driving into the snow belt in the winter (probably next winter) I might just use alcohol and water and see what my radiant thermometer shows.  All I would be out is the cost of a gallon o denatured alcohol and it might be interesting.  Or on second thought I could do that in the summer because the alcohol would still boil off and condense.  Maybe I won't wait for the winter.

[Stude Light]

11 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Or does mixing with water raise it's boiling point? No, it lowers the boiling point of the solution. See this chart from

http://www.methanol.org/methanol-properties/

From the chart:  Moving from 100% methanol (looks closer to a 65 deg boiling point) and adding water does raise the boiling point of the mixture. So a 63% water/37% methanol (by wt) would boil around 80 deg C (176 deg F) and would freeze at -37 deg C (-35 deg F).  So I think those numbers make an alcohol based solution feasible. Not buying or selling methanol.  Personally I just stick with water and NoRosion for summer and don't drive the car (1923) in the winter and store it in the heat. My 1939 Allis Chalmers gets the old fashioned green EG/water for year round use.

Scott

[Spinneyhill]

12 hours ago, Tinindian said:

All I would be out is the cost of a gallon o denatured alcohol and it might be interesting.  Or on second thought I could do that in the summer because the alcohol would still boil off and condense.  Maybe I won't wait for the winter.

 

How about just going for a nice drive this afternoon and then use the IR thermometer to observe the temperature gradient from top to bottom of the radiator? I would imagine the methanol would not make much difference to that.

[Frank DuVal]

For something cheap in the 30 to 40% Methanol concentration, just buy the blue windshield washer fluid.

 

Here is O'Reilly's MSDS:

 

http://rfsd-wi.safeschoolssds.com/document/repo/42f1037c-9047-4b5e-8254-17603c669c46

 

I have this in my Willys-Knight, as recommended by the club (WOKR).

[Spinneyhill]

5 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

For something cheap in the 30 to 40% Methanol concentration, just buy the blue windshield washer fluid.

.......

I have this in my Willys-Knight, as recommended by the club (WOKR).

 

So the boiling temperature is about 80°C or 176°F, which means your car will be boiling a lot (based on chart above) and your methanol will need frequent refilling?

 

Why do they recommend this stuff?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Yes, it did gradually boil off or evaporate and you had to test and replenish during the winter.  It was popular because it was inexpensive.   And those cars that did have thermostats, for example the Pines Winterfronts, were 160 deg. F. thermostats.

[Brass is Best]

You could always heat your garage. There are other problems that occur to automobiles when you let them freeze and thaw. Especially Wood body and wheel automobiles.