Tachometer

[real61ss]

Question,  a Sun tach attached to the steering column was an option on a 1961 Chevrolet Impala, Bel Air or Biscayne.  Most every time I show my car, it's a Sr GN car going for who knows how many pres;evasions, I get asked for documentation on the tach. I bet I have documented that tach a dozen times but at a recent National Meet I was asked for it again and I didn't have it with me. Shame on me. Question is, how many points would be deducted if they thought the tach wasn't legit and I could not document it.

 

 

[MCHinson]

Instruments/Gauges are shown as a 3 point item, so my thought is that if incorrect, that would be the amount of points to take. I would think that a judge even if questioning it would not know it to be incorrect (since it is not incorrect) and they should take your word that it is correct and not take any points.

[real61ss]

 Thanks

[Restorer32]

Is your tach exactly like the Sun tach that came on your car originally? Sun made several different tachs.

[real61ss]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Is your tach exactly like the Sun tach that came on your car originally? Sun made several different tachs.

My tach is the original one on the car. You make a valid statement  though. The 61 tach was different in that it had no red line. In 62 Chevrolet used the same style tach but added the redline. The after market Sun tach had a different face.

[Phillip Cole]

With the HP classes there is still plenty to learn for even experienced judges. And team captains sometimes ask questions like that so their team can learn. 

[real61ss]

Philip,

It's not that I mind documenting the tach, I think you were on the team that questioned it at New Bern. I was somewhat embarrassed that I didn't have the documentation with me. 

I just wondered how many points I could lose for not being able to document the thing. Apparently it's 3 points

[Restorer32]

I would think more likely 1 point.

[Marty Roth]

On 8/29/2016 at 6:00 AM, Restorer32 said:

I would think more likely 1 point.

 

I respectfully disagree with Restorer32's above note - an AUTHENTIC tachometer with a marred face, or scratched surface might be worth a One Point deduction, in which case we are then judging not authenticity, but rather we would be judging the item's condition.  In the current discussion,  real61SS has an authentic unit - hence no deduction (with the possible exception of condition), but if it were NOT authentic, then in my opinion, the Three Point Deduction would apply, per the Judging Manual, and as such, I agree with Matt Hinson's response, above.

 

[Restorer32]

If the car were going for a Senior or GN I would take 3 points if I knew it was incorrect. Maybe 1 if it were in a Preservation class. We are taught to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Always a judgement call (no pun intended) and I tend to be a hard a** when judging. I want an AACA award to still mean something.

[real61ss]

13 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

If the car were going for a Senior or GN I would take 3 points if I knew it was incorrect. Maybe 1 if it were in a Preservation class. We are taught to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Always a judgement call (no pun intended) and I tend to be a hard a** when judging. I want an AACA award to still mean something.

 

Its my car that is being discussed and I agree, I want an AACA award to be meaningful too. It's not an issue either way, the car was going for a Repeat Prev. Award and I just forgot to bring the documentation with me. I doubt they deducted any points but its not a big deal if they did. Now, if the car had been going for a Jr. or a Sr. it would be different but then I would have had the documentation with me.

Edited November 18, 2016 by real61ss
spelling (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

On 11/17/2016 at 6:55 AM, Restorer32 said:

If the car were going for a Senior or GN I would take 3 points if I knew it was incorrect. Maybe 1 if it were in a Preservation class. We are taught to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Always a judgement call (no pun intended) and I tend to be a hard a** when judging. I want an AACA award to still mean something.

 

Once again - Point Judging IS Point Judging, no matter which award is being sought. The same exact deduction  which is listed for the item would apply no matter if the vehicle is going for Junior, Senior, Preservation, even Grand National. If an item is incorrect (not Authentic) then the full deduction must be taken, and not fewer point because of Preservation. Standards are there for a reason, and it is up to us to maintain them.

[Restorer32]

Of course if  the item were not authentic then a full deduction would be taken. My point is that with a car that has made it to GN status and is going for a repeat preservation and where the owner insists the item is authentic I would likely give the owner the benefit of the doubt unless I knew positively that the item was not authentic.

[John348]

On 11/17/2016 at 9:22 PM, real61ss said:

 

Its my car that is being discussed and I agree, I want an AACA award to be meaningful too. It's not an issue either way, the car was going for a Repeat Prev. Award and I just forgot to bring the documentation with me. I doubt they deducted any points but its not a big deal if they did. Now, if the car had been going for a Jr. or a Sr. it would be different but then I would have had the documentation with me.

 

Hey Tommy,

At least you were asked for the documentation which is really a positive thing, it would be much more frustrating if you were never asked and found your form always "highlighted" for gauges.  

[Restorer32]

Always best to ask. I judged a 1940's car that had every possible accessory imaginable, some so ridiculous that my team thought they couldn't be possibly all be factory authorized.. Guess what. The owner had full documentation for every accessory. He had loaded the car up every accessory he could document just so he could needle the judges. 

[FLYER15015]

Don't ya just love a "swamp cooler" hanging off a '40 Chevy window !!!

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

I concur with Marty--if the tach was incorrect it would be a 3-point deduction.  The Judging Guidelines say instruments/gauges are worth 3 points each, so you'd only deduct 1 or 2 points for an issue with the item's condition.  It doesn't matter what level award the vehicle is going for--First Junior, a Repeat Preservation, or a Senior Grand National.

 

If the gauge (tach in this case) was incorrect, it would be a 3-point deduction (because the only time we take the max deduction is when the item is not authentic, missing, or not fit for intended service/purpose).  If it was correct, but had an issue with its condition, then it would be a 1- or 2-point deduction depending upon the condition If the judging team assessed the 3-point deduction, then the team captain should've informed the owner that a max deduction was taken--for the last couple years team captains have been required to inform owners any time a mandatory (a circled item on the judging sheet) or maximum deduction (max value of any item regardless of the number) is taken, doesn't matter if it's a 3-point or 40-point item.

 

The guidelines also say that factory documentation will be accepted without documentation and the team captain may accept or reject the verbal opinion of the owner.  Yes, this is subjective, but there are some owners who are very knowledgeable about their vehicles and can give you the history and details.  I've judged some of Tommy's vehicles before and they're all beautifully restored.  He also know his muscle cars.  If Tommy (or another owner) didn't have documentation but gave me a detailed verbal explanation, I'd accept it unless I knew without a doubt that the item was incorrect.  However, if another owner just told me "it came that way when I bought it"--especially if they're not the original owner--then I probably wouldn't accept the explanation.  That said, I only deduct when I am certain the item is incorrect--if I don't know and can't prove otherwise, I give the owner the benefit of the doubt--but caution them to bring documentation next time.

 

Sorry, I didn't intend this to be a tutorial--everyone commenting on this forum is considerably smarter and more experienced than me.  I was just trying to explain my rationale.

 

Tommy, you can always avoid the situation by removing the tach--I'll give it a good home.  (Just kidding.)  As Phillip pointed out, sometimes team captains ask these questions to use as a teaching more for less experienced judging team members.  You probably keep getting pinged for documentation for your tach because it's unusual to see a factory stock Sun tach, especially since we don't see many stock early 1960's factory high-performance vehicles at AACA meets.  Thanks for bringing yours and sharing them with us, Tommy--I always look forward to seeing what you & Debbie bring to a meet.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Mark McAlpine (see edit history)

[real61ss]

Mark,

Thank you for the response and the compliments ,  I think I will keep the tach cause without it you would have to deduct points because it is a required option on the car being discussed.

For any of the judges or for that matter anyone, when looking at a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet here is the deal.

 

1961......a Sun tach attached to the left side of the steering column with two machine screws was an option on all V8 models, Biscayne ,  Bel Air or Impala. On a Super Sport model the tach was a REQUIRED option. The tach had NO redline.

1962......Same deal, Sun tach mounted on the left side of the steering column, optional on all V8 models, standard on 4 speed cars equipped with 300 horse or larger motors. The 62 tach was the same as 61 EXCEPT it had a red line. After 1962, starting in 63 the tachs were a part of or attached to the dash so that they did not appear to be aftermarket.

 

Hope this helps someone.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

It helps a lot, Tommy.  Thank you very much for the information and educating all of us.