1st gen Riviera buyers guide?

[Guest The Warlock]

Hey folks,

potential new owner, will be traveling to a Detroit suburb to check out a 65 Riv this weekend. It's a mildly modified car with after market wheels, modified exhaust, and a suspension drop. Oh, sigh, the flames will have to go

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272342772782 

 

I've only seen these stunning cars, never driven them. In fact, I've never driven a 60's car so I'm not quite sure what to expect. I've read that they are Caddy like floaty, and handle like a wayward boat. I've got a 80's Jag XJ12, but I suspect that's a different kinda floaty

 

Any links or advice on a buyers inspection would be welcome - particular areas prone to rust, known weak points, big warning flags, etc. Don't think I'll be in a position to do a compression/leakdown check

 

Thanks

 

 

[JZRIV]

Welcome to the forum. The ebay link does not work. Is the listing still up?

 

Best money spent is to join ROA before you buy and do your homework. I've seen too many disappointed buyers who bought without educating themselves on the Riviera. There is a lot to know about these cars not just for a pre-purchase but long term ownership.

 

The ride isn't Cadillac-like (same era) at all. Where did you read that? Its more firm especially when the suspension bushings are rebuilt and/or in good condition. As far as rust, make SURE the floor pans are solid especially the cross members that support the pans. Rear window pinch weld is notorious for rusting. Finding rust free sheet metal is difficult and expensive.

 

Biggest thing you need to assess is parts you will need based on your goals for the car.

One of the most common mistakes the layman makes is DRASTICALLY underestimating parts cost and difficulty locating them. They get a car cheap thinking they can repair/restore to a perceived condition for $XXXX and always way underestimates. See the last line in my sig.

 

In the mean time if you find a car, post pictures here with details and members will provide advice based on info provided.

[Rivdrivn]

4 hours ago, The Warlock said:

Hey folks,

potential new owner, will be traveling to a Detroit suburb to check out a 65 Riv this weekend. It's a mildly modified car with after market wheels, modified exhaust, and a suspension drop. Oh, sigh, the flames will have to go

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272342772782 

 

I've only seen these stunning cars, never driven them. In fact, I've never driven a 60's car so I'm not quite sure what to expect. I've read that they are Caddy like floaty, and handle like a wayward boat. I've got a 80's Jag XJ12, but I suspect that's a different kinda floaty

 

Any links or advice on a buyers inspection would be welcome - particular areas prone to rust, known weak points, big warning flags, etc. Don't think I'll be in a position to do a compression/leakdown check

 

Thanks

 

Is this it?

 

4 hours ago, The Warlock said:

 

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

I started to write a First Gen Buyers Guide a few years ago but life got in the way.  I will pick it up again some day.

 

I don't know that it would have helped you much with this car, though, because this one is heavily modified.  I was planning to stick to comments about stock vehicles.  There are too many possible variations of custom cars to really cover them all.

 

 

[Guest The Warlock]

rivdrivn,

Yes, that is the car, let's see if this link works

http://m.ebay.com/itm/272342772782?_trkparms=pageci:c9ff9fd1-6a11-11e6-b65c-005056b24177|parentrq:bd3a544b1560a78875bbf4f3fffb008b|iid:4&_mwBanner=1

 

JZ, appreciate the pointers, will look into ROA. Looking at this car, it appears to be complete albeit modified. The mods were done by the previous owner (prior to current seller), and perhaps a set of rally wheels and stock mirrors are what I can currently see. I'm hoping those air brushed flames can be wet sanded out, the black finish looks good from pics

 

In order to fit these wheels, can you tell if the fenders been rolled or other suspension mods been performed?

 

underbody looks ok to me from limited pics, but has bad overspray

 

Jim, that would be a great resource. Now, how about a "top 10 things to check before buying"? ?

[Guest The Warlock]

Some more pics of the car, please chime up if you spot any mods that I missed or potential problems

 

thanks

[RivNut]

Other than the stance, the wheels, and the flames, I don't see anything else that's been modified.  The covers for the headlights have been painted but that's a no brainer to fix.  The stance appears to be from the late 50's - a little drop in the front and a little rise in the back.  Nothing has been done to the wheel wells to fit the tires/wheels.  There are a few things in the description of the original ad that are true but may be a little misleading.  The items mentioned are all standard equipment on a Riviera.  Power steering, power brakes, tilt wheel, are all standard equipment on every 1965 Riviera.The power "truk" (trunk) is a vacuum release, and the power antenna is part of the radio option.  This car is about as basic as you could buy in 1965.  It has no power windows, no power seat.  What's really weird is that the seats are from a car with the custom interior option but the door panels are from a car with the standard interior,  Could be a red flag.  You'd want to look at the Fisher Data plate to see what interior is listed as original.

 

As a member of the RIviera Owners Assoc. you'd be able to go to their website and look at the Evolution of the Riviera link and see all of what went into a '65 Riviera.   You can also access a series of previously published articles entitled "Options not included" that break down the options and what percent of each came out of the factory.  What color was most popular?  What interior was most popular?  etc.  How to identify a Gran Sport (A9 code for the Super Wildcat engine - two four barrel AFB carburetors, modified transmission, posi rear end,) a real 'banker's hotrod.'

 

There's a link to the ROA's website in my signature.  Join now and enjoy.

 

Ed

[JZRIV]

So did you buy it? Auction says sold a couple days ago. Or is it back up for sale. If those black plates are originals its a CA car. Odd seller didn't mention it. From what I can see of the underside it looks clean. Paint does look nice but always best to see in person as pics hide many defects. I give seller an A+ for reflection of the American flag in hood.

I'd be surprised if those front tires don't rub the inner fender on a sharp turn.

 

Good catch Ed on the interior snafu. It has the rocker moldings which indicate custom interior......though I think the they (rocker moldings) could be ordered as a separate option even on a standard interior car.

[RivNut]

You are correct in that the ribbed rocker moldings were standard on the custom interior cars AND they could be ordered separately for somewhere around $26 - 27 dollars if I remember correctly.  I don't know the code for that though.    It would be nice to look at the Fisher Data plate to see what was original.

 

Ed

[Seafoam65]

                Also the chrome ribbed molding underneath the rear window has been removed, as well as all the Riviera emblems on the rear

deck and front fenders. the clamshells and grill have been blacked out, and the rear package tray is covered in a   crushed velvet material. also the right radio knob is missing. If your goal is a nice stock appearing car, I'd pass on this one.   

[Guest The Warlock]

Thanks Ed, the current seller did say that the seat covers had been replaced by PO. He couldn't say if it's leather or vinyl, if I recall only 63 had leather option.

 

I believe he said the front suspension was dropped and rear was stock. He couldn't say if the spring was cut. 

 

Will join roa

 

JZ, I am the winner of the auction.

 

Now, my plan is to fly into Detroit, inspect car in person and then do the transfer. Then, tentatively thinking of driving it to Chicago about 3 hours away to visit some long lost family. Then ship via enclosed transport to Texas.  Not a "wise" idea for sure, but then, where's the adventure? The seller has only driven this car for close by shows and cruises. His longest drive was an hour after he bought it and drove it home. He says that he's been stuck in traffic on a cruise with 90deg outside temps without overheating. 

 

I understand there are only idiot lights for oil pressure and water temp, which is disconcerting. Any thoughts on common failure/trouble candidates and diagnosis would be most welcome. 

 

Secondly, any recommendations for tools / spares most likely to come in handy in the event of a roadside failure?

 

Finally, I'm told the plates stay with the owner in Michigan. I do not want to title it in Mi, want to do it in TX. The MI DMV says no plates are required to drive it home, but I can just see myself getting pulled over by the cops in a car with flames and no plates. 

 

[RivNut]

The entire seats would have to have been replaced.  The foam for the custom interior seats is configured differently that the foam for the standard interior.  The seats look aged to me. You can't fit custom covers on standard seat foam.  I would suspect that the PO or the seller found a complete '65 with custom interior and swapped the entire seats, frame and all for the original seats. A picture of the Fisher Body data plate would tell the story.  Definitely not leather; as you stated, leather was only available in '63.

 

Mechanically these cars are sound if they've been cared for.  The body has certain places that are prone to rust.  The most common areas are the bottom corners of the rear window channel, and the trunk floor where the body bolts to the frame.  Hard to see if they've been repaired properly.  But if they have, then you'll have no worries.  When you wash one of these cars, take the blow nozzle on your air compressor and blow the water out of those channels.  If the car is truly and original California car, then perhaps these problems haven't popped up.

 

Ed

[bodayguy]

eBay shows it sold for $20,200? Sounds OK to me. But no pics of the engine bay? Hmmm.

Also odd that the molding is removed under the rear window. Suggests to me some rust repair back there.

[Seafoam65]

                 I think they removed the rear molding to clean up the outside....same reason they removed the riviera emblems.

Warlock....where do you live in Texas?

[60FlatTop]

Interesting, I have a '64 Riviera and I have had two of the V12 XJS'. I liked both and will probably buy another XJS at some point. My next XJS will have a small block Chevy LS of some sort. The Buick will feel a lot stronger when you put your foot into it. You will notice the absence of rack and pinion right away. The Buick will feel very light to steer. You will notice a lack of elbow room in the Riviera. It is tighter inside. Be careful getting into the Riviera with the window rolled down. You might bump your lip or cheek on the upper point of the vent window frame. It is a little taller than the XJS and right at face level.

Being used to a non-overdrive car you will like the light throttle response. I drop my modern OD cars into 3rd about 3 miles from town to get that feeling.

 

Idiot lights are fine. I am, personally, not a big gauge guy. My '60 Electra has a set from the PO. I removed them. They look tacky in a Riviera or Electra.We changed the oil in my Electra about 300 miles ago. I take it to a garage and two pairs of eyes look over everything while it is on the lift, more than the gauges monitor. Check the belts, hoses, CLAMPS, oil drips and fix what is obviously wrong. If you can drive the car 15 miles without overheating and shutting it off with a successful restart it is doing all the functions it needs to go 1500 miles. The only real caution is the rear end lube. That's a heavy mass and vented. Temperature changes build up a surprising amount water during storage. A lot of people don't give these 50 year old cars a good flush and risk axle bearing failure. If a car overheats you will hear it ping and on light throttle. Don't worry about a gauge you'll know. Even with a gauge more engines are lost by the guy who says "I can make it to the next exit." Stop before you break it.

 

Don't sell the Jag. Next year at this time you may find you drive the Riviera when you want to go out and impress others, but the Jag when you want to impress yourself.

Bernie

[Guest The Warlock]

Seafoam, I'm in a suburb of Dallas, are you around here?

 

Bernie, that's excellent info, sounds like I'll be looking to do an engine and differential oil change before I start the long drive. So unlike the Jag, I don't need to worry about Lucas electricals going up in smoke, overheating engines causing dropped valves, or Marelli ignitions setting the cats on fire

 

The "15 miles without overheating" reference, I take it that's highway?

 

i don't suppose there's an electronic copy of the service manual around

[Guest The Warlock]

So what secrets do the tags reveal?

 

ive got a video of the car running, engine shot, and walkaround, but it's too big to post

[RivNut]

The long slender plate is the VIN.

The rectangular plate is the FIsher Body data plate.

01B - built the 2nd week of Jan, 1965

The FB number is the sequential build number for ALL Buicks in '65, not just the RIviera.  Only 34,586 Rivieras were built in '65.

ST= style: 65-49447 - 1965 Buick Riviera two door hardtop

AA - Black

608 - Standard black vinyl

E - tinted glass

2R - rear seat speaker

4F - Remote mirror

5K - Door edge guard.

 

No code for the trunk release nor the rocker moldings.  Those along with the custom seats were probably taken from another car.

IF the car had come equipped with the remote trunk release, an S would be stamped on the data plate and 628 would have been the code for custom black vinyl. I didn't notice when I looked at the pictures the first time that this car does not have a/c.  Hope this sheds some more light.

 

Ed

[TexRiv_63]

Nice car. Adventure is great but unless you know a good mechanic in Detroit who can do a top to bottom check and repair any problems I would NOT drive that car anywhere except onto a transport to Texas. Good luck!

[Seafoam65]

             Warlock, I live in  Plano and have a car repair business 1 block east of US 75 on Parker Rd. in Plano, across

the street from the Parker  Road  Dart Rail station.  It will be nice to have another 65 Riviera owner nearby.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Lucas, the Prince of Darkness never bothered me much on the Brit cars. Last I heard of him the Japanese and the British trapped him in a Rover called a Sterling and smoked him out. But it is all just maintenance. The really bad distributor is the Marelli that seizes up. (Minga where'd they get that!) The fires are usually from O2 sensors that can be monitored separately. And the dropped valve seats are surely avoidable.

 

When dealing with the devil I like to think of myself as the boy in the last scene of the movie "Crossroads". Fixing cars is a lot like those guys play guitar. It's easy to see where you want to be.

Bernie

[Guest The Warlock]

14 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

             Warlock, I live in  Plano and have a car repair business 1 block east of US 75 on Parker Rd. in Plano, across

the street from the Parker  Road  Dart Rail station.  It will be nice to have another 65 Riviera owner nearby.

Seafoam, we will need to hook up for sure, but first I have other challenges.

 

Interesting twist, Hagerty (which insures my other 2 classics) said they needed photos, then pronounced that they will not insure it unless it had a lojack installed and I can't do anything like 5K miles/year that's fine with the other 2. Huh, why? "Well, those types of modified cars are subject to high theft and law enforcement activity which goes against our underwriting policies". How am I going to get Lojack installed, if I can't get it home? "Our policies wont allow us to change that stipulation..."

 

So I can't be a wanbe gangsta! That sux. I'm going to dump 'em. Unfortunately, this messes up my plans at the last minute since Farmers which carries my DD, "won't insure cars that old, have you tried Haggerty?"

 

I'm guessing most of you clean cut gentlemen with your original Rivis don't run into this crap.

 

Dang, the adventure had begun, it seems.

 

 

 

 

[Guest The Warlock]

23 hours ago, RivNut said:

didn't notice when I looked at the pictures the first time that this car does not have a/c.  Hope this sheds some more light.

 

Ed

Thanks Ed, greatly appreciate you taking the time to look it up (or maybe you've got it memorized  )

 

I specifically asked about the a/c and figured I'd budget for a vintage air. I searched and found TxRev and the Austin guys stories on the install, does not look like fun. But what I overlooked was the the non a/c car has no vents!!!   Holy cow, that's going to be a problem, those teeny vents under the dash panel may not be a match for the Texas heat.

 

 

[RivNut]

It should be easy for you to find OE dash pieces with the vents from an A/C car.  If you've yet to look at the catalogs for Vintage Air, Classic Air, and Old Air Products you'll see that you're not going to be stuck with the "those teeny vents under the dash."  

 

You could put a louver like this in the OE space on your dash.

 

http://www.oldairproducts.com/catalog/accessories/32-13x/louver-p-3344.html

 

But,once you've joined the ROA and start getting their bi-monthly magazine, you'll become familiar with some parts vendors who can supply you with the proper dash pieces so that you can have the VIntage Air blow through factory vents.  The parts are there to make your task pretty straight forward.

[60FlatTop]

I think Haggerty has a reputation for catering to the frequent collector car driver that it hasn't earned. I thought I would try one car with them a few years ago and they were quite specific with "No".

The flames and the wheels wouldn't fit my Archie Bunker look with the white shirt, dress pants, and cop looking shoes. I even meet my barber for lunch on Monday, his day off and have some clothes made in the tailor shop next door.

 

Maybe a close up of a custom license frame the says "My other car is a Jag, peasant."

 

A clean cut Gentleman, before the heart attack.

Bernie

[Guest onedesertdog]

54 minutes ago, The Warlock said:

Seafoam, we will need to hook up for sure, but first I have other challenges.

 

Interesting twist, Hagerty (which insures my other 2 classics) said they needed photos, then pronounced that they will not insure it unless it had a lojack installed and I can't do anything like 5K miles/year that's fine with the other 2. Huh, why? "Well, those types of modified cars are subject to high theft and law enforcement activity which goes against our underwriting policies". How am I going to get Lojack installed, if I can't get it home? "Our policies wont allow us to change that stipulation..."

 

So I can't be a wanbe gangsta! That sux. I'm going to dump 'em. Unfortunately, this messes up my plans at the last minute since Farmers which carries my DD, "won't insure cars that old, have you tried Haggerty?"

 

I'm guessing most of you clean cut gentlemen with your original Rivis don't run into this crap.

 

Dang, the adventure had begun, it seems.

 

 

 

 

Try J.C. Taylor for a quick fix, maybe? 

[Bill Stoneberg]

Vintage Air may look like a pain from the pictures we took, but when it is 90 - 105 degrees out in Austin, it will keep you cold.  

Well worth every penny I spent on it.

[petelempert]

Warlock-I'm in Dallas too, near SMU. Seafoam and I see each other at shows every so often but his 65 makes my 63 look like a mutt. Also, there is a 64 in Plano being restored by Rivadrian. If you'd like to see the Vintage Air install, I had it put in mine several years ago. Spendy to install, but so worth it. Seems like you could get the dash parts and vents you need at CTC in Denton and make it work. PM me your contact information and maybe we can hook up. PRL

 

[KongaMan]

On 8/29/2016 at 2:42 PM, petelempert said:

I'm in Dallas too, near SMU.

 

I spent 4 years at SMU a while back.  Probably drove my 64 across your lawn a time or two.  Sorry about that.

[NC1968Riviera]

Breathing life into a long dead thread with this posting!

 

There was a October 2020 online 1st Gen Buyers Guide published on the 'Silodrome Gasoline Culture' website that is an interesting read.

Buick Riviera First Generation Buying Guide - Everything You Need To Know (silodrome.com)

 

I am not a 1st Gen aficionado by any means so I can't speak to the accuracy of the article, but, the ROA does get an honorable mention towards the end of the article. 

[telriv]

I would say approx. 95%-98% or so is mostly correct.

 

Tom T.

[Paul K.]

Not really a "Buying Guide" but more of a historical analysis for the 63-5 Riviera. Still, a good primer for the person who knows nothing about these cars. The most valuable information in this article was recommending prospective buyers to join the ROA  .