1931 Graham value and how to identify

[auburnseeker]

A friend stopped by with a 31 Graham on his truck.  I was quite surprised to see it.  He bought it purely to flip it.  I have pretty good general knowledge of old cars and values.  That is to say somewhat common cars.  A 31 Graham is odd enough it's hard to figure out a value I think.  I then decided to try to ID what he had just shown me.  Then I realized Graham made quite a few models that year.  I know it was a 6 and a 4 door but I think it didn't have 1/4 windows in the back.  It had a trunk on the trunk rack and twin sidemounts.  Beyond that how would I identify which model it is? 

The body looked like it might have had it's original paint but the fenders were poorly repainted.  It's not running now but was 5 years ago.  Interior is their but old and the seams on what I think are the original seat covers are starting to come apart.  Door panels and headliner seem surprisingly good.   Some of the chrome was pretty nice other pieces were peeled with surface rust.  The body itself even though it had original paint is starting to pimple surface rust through the paint.  Tires have dry rot starting on them.  It does include extra parts including another chassis and motor.  I think it was in alot better shape but suffers from more recent poorer storage. 

I was foolish and didn't think to grab the camera while he was here.  He wanted me to make him an offer on it. He said it's my type of car.  The wood in the body seems to be in very good shape. The doors all open and close nice.  Has one small rot hole that someone fixed? in the bottom rear corner of the body between the fender and rear splash pan right in front of the trunk rack. 

  I searched the web for comps but of course found nothing really like it.  either restored cars mint originals or pieces of a project.  My gut instinct was it's worth $ 5500 before I even tried to research it.   After some googling I still have no idea what it's worth.  Whether I try to buy it or just give him some help pricing it I would like to try to figure out what it really might be worth.  I know this is hard without photos but I'll try to find a few cars in comparable condition to give you an idea of what shape it is in. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I would say condition wise it's comparable to one of these. 

 

 

 

 

On the ID I might have to go over and get some photos tomorrow about a 15 minute ride from here.

Edited July 2, 2016 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[mercer09]

well. orphan car and the money belongs to the rodders....................... that is my take. I would  bet rodders would pay a good bit more then AACA members.

If any parts are missing, where do you find them? a rodder would most likely lose the chassis and go from there- parts missing or not.

 

You are quite knowledgeable on this forum, so your gut is most likely right.

I only mention rodding because you said he wants to flip it. I know rodders generally pay more for a model A then the purists, and think the same here with such an unusual car.

[auburnseeker]

I think you are more than likely right on that take. It would be a shame to see it rodded as it is really complete except maybe the tie bar with the graham emblem.  It would technically need a restoration (at which point it wouldn't really be worth it)  but I think could be refurbished to a driver that you wouldn't be ashamed to own for a few thousand dollars and some Elbow grease.  I saw very little except noted missing.  I do know that American vintage parts I think it is bought the contents of the Graham warehouse / factory and as of recently have been selling alot of Graham parts really reasonable if not cheap on ebay.  Seems there are more of some parts than cars. The spare chassis and engine plus some other misc.  would be nice to have to keep it going as an original a little longer. 

I do know the rodders tend to fizzle out at the over 5G price range when talking about a 4 door sedan.

I'll try to get over to see it again tomorrow and see if I can find a body tag and get some photos. 

[Joe in Canada]

Graham has a strong following in my area. Mike Butters also casts parts for Graham and I believe has a display of his castings at the Graham tent at Hershey each year.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The graham club is very active so there is a support system.   And I know that you know without pictures everything is speculation

[auburnseeker]

Even with photos it's just speculation, but I know what you mean.  I'm going to try to get some sots today. 

[auburnseeker]

I was able to go over and take another look today.  It sits on a 115 inch wheel base.  Motor turn over easily. 67 KMI on the clock not that that matters alot.  Here are some photos. 

Vin is H71924I181.  

[F&J]

My first opinion from what you wrote on day one....has just done a 180 turn-around.

 

I don't even want another car, but if you lived in my town, I'd run right over in 10 minutes with 5500 cash, and bring a little extra in case you wanted a bit more.

 

That is a very attractive car looking at everything combined; nice front end styling, sidemounts and wires fit the era, and the classy "town sedan" body style.

 

I'd be thrilled to bring it home.  I'm quite partial to 1932-era styling, and that one could pass as a 32 year, except for the windshield visor.

[auburnseeker]

It does have nice style.   I wish I got pictures of it outside when it was on the roll back at my house.  It looks longer and a little sleeker outside.  The removable trunk is a little rough.  I imagine it could be replaced pretty easy though.  I seem to see alot of trunks without cars for sale.  I'm still pondering it.  I also at the same time ran across a very nice survivor quality 40 Chevy 2 door sedan with very nice chrome and interior including the accessory spinner wheel.   That guy has a pretty nice 29 Chevy phaeton as well that he's looking to sell.   I'm also still looking for a Hudson pickup so I have a lot of options but not nearly as much money or space. 

[alsancle]

Neat.  Club sedans are usually pretty cool.   If you are buying then the 5500 is very fair.  If your friend is selling I would start higher and take offers.  Advertising in the Graham club newsletter or on the their website would be the way to go.

[wayne sheldon]

Looks nice (for a modern car  )

 

Since nobody has so far commented on the model number, I will risk one. From memory, a long time ago. The Graham Brothers used a combination of cylinder count plus wheel base for the model designations during those years. Therefore, a six cylinder 115 inch wheel base car drops the 100 and becomes a model 615. Graham was not the only company to use that designation system (I believe Packard did also for a few years). Paige (which I have one of) did not use that system. My 1927 6-45 is a six cylinder 45 hp motor (based on one of about six different common hp calculations, and different car companies used different hp calculations on different models). Many companies used that model designation system during the 1920s.

Unfortunately, marketing being what it is (and was even then), nobody used the same system for very long. That way, everyone can be confused. However, for some marques, for some years, those two systems can sometimes help to remember which model is which.

 

That does look like a nice car, and even I would be interested in it if I weren't at "that point" where I cannot be. Then again, I have always had a soft spot for anything related to Paige automobiles.

 

[F&J]

8 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

That does look like a nice car, and even I would be interested in it if I weren't at "that point" where I cannot be.

 

This leads to the sad fact of wondering what will become of nice old cars of that age.   The people who would gladly give it a new lease on life, are at the backside of life, and need to downsize, not add another car to care for.  We can't fault the 25-30 year old person that has no interest in this era.

 

However, that car is unique enough to hopefully find the right new owner, at a price that is good for the seller, and the buyer.

[auburnseeker]

I think there are more people around who like old cars even in their original form than you may know about.  They are busy trying to keep their head above water for now.  If our country ever makes the swing back into the real black instead of the red and the economy picks up so they have some discretionary income you will see the market atleast stabilize on cars like this.  They keep telling us no one will want these old cars because they weren't around when they were new.  Nobody is around from the Civil war or predominant horse and buggy days,  yet there is still pretty good interest in all these things. Some people just like history and being able to relive it.  I can't think of too many other historical items that can transposrt you back in time like an old car on the right road at the right time of day.  The smell the sound.  It's as close as we've seen to Doc brown's time machine.

[F&J]

I know what you mean about the "economic conditions" affecting all things, but I am a realist.  My sons friends are all around mid to late 20s and some use my shop or tools...they see my cars, but the only ones that they actually "glance at" are the 32 Ford old style 50s hotrod, and a 69 Dart 4 speed conv with 340 sixpack motor.  They don't have any interest in my 32 Nash conv.  The Nash is my own favorite, but I am 64.

 

When my son was young, he was into antique tractors because it was something he could "drive legally" at the vintage tractor shows.  10-15 years have passed, and that hobby seems to be dying here as well.

 

Younger people here, can only have one vehicle it seems, so they choose either a diesel truck, or a performance tuner car.  We have a Nascar Track in northeast CT, and there have been auto shows there since the early 70s.  I can recall back in the mid to late 70s, the hot-rod shows were what I thought were "huge turnouts", but that pales to the Subaru show of recent years....I believe 4000 plus cars show up from countless states, with quite a few female owners too!  These people can buy a "trendy-popular-cool" car from the showroom, and on payments with a warrantee, and have super reliability, speed, and handling.  How can we expect them to understand this old car hobby?

 

I do hope I am wrong on the future. 

[alsancle]

Frank,  the biggest threat to the hobby is the lack of skills in the younger generation.  Each generation by necessity does less and less work by hand so the ability to maintain ones own car is being diminished.  When I graduated HS (1982) all of my friends changed their own oil,  could do most simple mechanics on their car and many could do much more.  My son's class,  2016 I doubt 5% of them can. 

 

Btw,  you have good taste - that Nash is very cool.

[F&J]

Well, the "young guys" that show up here, or ones that I know through my son, do have skills.  One is a shift manager at the local Autozone, and I was impressed to find out that he did a major swap on a semi-modern Ford 4WD pickup; installing a Dodge Cummins diesel and 5 speed std trans.  Thank goodness I have a "go-to" parts guy that when I am looking for a certain type of brake hose for a custom swap, and he understands parts "swaps", that he will actually try to figure out what type of car had that hose  .

 

  But, last week when I was there, he asked how my "rat rod" was coming along... (my 32 Ford that another kid posted a pic of on facebook).  I was kind of offended, as I'm not into rat rods, and my Ford is a very authentic 50s style build.  He just does not know that, and I should not have been surprised that he doesn't know about the 50's.

 

I suppose it's not all doom and gloom, as I do rent a couple spots indoors here, and one 25 year old stores a project 68 cougar, and another kid had a 40s Dodge pickup here.

 

As far as me...I woke up one day and went from being happy just owning a project car to work on occasionally, and now I'd rather have a finished prewar to drive.  Which brings me to why I don't worry about modifications that will allow me to drive an 85 year old car and survive in modern traffic, and not be stressed out by looking in the mirror and pulling into the shoulder to let people pass. I have zero interest of trailering a car to a show with my restored/upgraded(  ) 66 Chevy camper special 4x4, not that the car will ever be too nice to drive, but a car that can't drive with traffic conditions.  I don't go to shows or cruises anyways, I just want to go for a ride. 

 

(there are many prewar cars that I would never modify, but those cars are WAY out of my price range  LOL)

[oldford]

I once had a 30 Graham very similar to that one, also on a 115" wheelbase. It was one of the best driving cars I ever owned. Look at the pluses: Hydraulic Brakes, Fuel Pump, 6 cylinder Continental engine (parts are all over)..

 

I think polished up and running well, it's certainly worth more than $5500. My guess, but I'd start near $10K and let the buyer set the price. Nice Car...

 

Frank

[auburnseeker]

The same friend called me today and told me to check out the tow truck he got in I believe with the Graham.  It's been mostly restored and needs some finishing (wiring, final hookup of the engine and some other Misc.  stuff I saw).  He would like me to buy that as well from him as he doesn't have the time to finish it himself or much use for it once it's finished. 

The truck was done by a local shop and alot of man hours went into it.  The finish is show quality.  It is an original Wrecker from the day from a local garage. I think most of the bed has been replaced exactly like the original was.  It's way too nice to be original.   He wants me to make him an offer.   I think it's out of my range anyways .  I know what the cost of the shop work was.  The Motor has been completely rebuilt it has new brakes and all but one tire is new and match.   Looks to be missing some small misc. pieces probably pretty readily available.   It does look like it has a new correct wire harness laying in it. The exhaust is not hooked up because the rear bumper is in the way for a stock system. Body looks very good.  The paint is show quality. I didn't see any chips or scratches at all anywhere. 

What are your thoughts on value on this?  I may end up brokering it for him if nothing else.

Good morning;

  

[tom_in_nh]

The wrecker looks like more fun than the Graham. 

[alsancle]

A buddy bought a wrecker just like that because it was a smoking good deal and thought he could flip it.   20 years later I think he still has it.  The issue is that with the low rear end gearing you can't go over 40mph and even then you are screaming.  It is just not practical unless you literally stay in town on 30 mph roads

.

[auburnseeker]

As you mentioned the tow truck sounds fun and is in Beautiful shape with much high dollar quality work done but what exactly do you do with it when you are done.  If I ever got the Graham on the road I could use that around town.  The truck is big.  The size of a crew cab dually with the performance of a model A.

[F&J]

In the Northeast, the "bigger" truck hobby reached it's peak in the 80s.   There was a strong showing by the wealthy trucking company and excavation business owners, that seemed to be competing with each other, but they are gone now.   As any flipper knows, if a vehicle won't fit in a residential garage, you are looking for a select buyer.

 

No offence, but that resto is not up to "big collector" standards.  Like mentioned the bed is shop built new and not really done right, including the front push bumper, and the crane is very poorly redone; blasted and painted over heavy pitting.  No offence, but it is what it is.

 

The Graham is different.  There is a growing market for survivor cars that can be fixed up, rather than restored.  People seem to be drawn to these at a local show, even passing right by some top money cars.   One Graham poster says they are great road cars, so there you go.   

[auburnseeker]

I know many of the wrecker bodies from that era were custom built often to some degree by local shops so I think they copied what it originally had.  I remember seeing it from a distance years ago before they restored it and I believe the body looked pretty much identical then.  

I do agree they should have spent more time on the boom.  While that would require more work to be show quality the rest is very nicely done.  Most of the little stuff I noticed is fairly easily correctable but more to the tune of a couple thousand bucks.  The guy that was having the truck rebuilt got sick and maybe the boom was more of a get it done before he takes a turn for the worse.  Unfortunately he never did see it completed.  He had a fleet of very nice Wreckers in the end.  All pretty new and if i recall a couple of rig wreckers.  I always admired them because even in the winter they were all kept spotless and polished from fuel tanks to beds. The new owner of the business is at the exact opposite end of that spectrum. 

[nzcarnerd]

I am no expert on Grahams but by 1931 they were producing many less cars than they had a few years earlier, and they made a whole range of models. Not only that they updated them during the 1931 year so I reckon the car here would have to be quite rare.  Lots of detail in the book The graham Legacy - a few pages can ne seen here   -   https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=AzEyTU_S8EUC&pg=PT116&lpg=PT116&dq=graham+car+serial+num&source=bl&ots=B_KCdq4kU7&sig=_nxXXs0AqVEsjZtJZJ8pg9CbMkg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgp8OH4tvNAhXFNpQKHaZbC40Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=graham car serial num&f=false

 

I note in the last paragraph that in 1930 they were only building cars after the dealers had ordered them.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I think that a six wheel blind back (or club sedan, if you prefer) is such a sexy car, even if it's not a Packard or such. I can't help but think you will get your money back quickly enough if you feel you made a mistake later. I, for one, love original cars and have high regard for anyone who shows them just as they are. Regarding how younger generations feel about our vintage cars, I can only relate similar conversations with others in parallel hobbies. I don't want to predict doom and gloom, I do, however, think that there is a down turn in general in the things we value. When I refer to other parallel hobbies, I am speaking specifically about vintage radios and phonographs, of which I have some knowledge. I know that they aren't in the same category pricewise, but I think that some comparisons can be made. We, for the most part, admire cars of a certain vintage because we admire their quality and style, but beyond that, I think that many of us have nostalgic recollections about them from distant associations. I think that many folks of our age, I'm 66, have memories of the radios and phonographs that our grand parents or older relatives had when we were young. I think that we might have been impressed, even at the time, by their style and quirky nature. Perhaps those memories have kept alive some interest in these items for many of us. I've come in recent years to see a substantial decline in interest in such vintage items. I recall struggling for a long time with the decision to buy a particular style of Edison that I had long admired. I paid a bit for it, but now I've seen as many as three of them at a time on Craigslist pages selling for far less then I paid.  I got less than one hundred dollars for a different simpler, but working, Edison last year and was glad that someone finally bought it. I've been giving table model radios to charity over the last two years because no one shows any interest in them. I'll ad that none of them were particularly valuable ones, but they all would have found buyers ten years ago. Everyone I talk to in that hobby sees the same trend. I honestly don't want to belabor the parallels between cars and the vintage things that I have mentioned, but I do think that guys of my age are thinning out their treasures and younger fellows aren't lining up to buy them. Back then to cars, I have to think that if a guy has no first hand specific memories of push starting an old car and popping the clutch to get it started, scraping frosted over windows, the smell of old mohair, humming old AM radios and very dim headlights he simply won't feel the first hand connection that we have and, consequently, never feel the urge to own one.  Worse yet, he won't think twice about modernizing because as the car sits now it doesn't have any real or particular value to him.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I finally got a price out of the seller but it's for the pair.  Putting it at 30 G.  That puts me out.  I like the graham but see the work in that and the unknown that always seem to rear it's ugly head.  A running driving car is one thing.,  A car in a shed that turns over with deterioration is a whole different story.  Even the wrecker needs more work before you market it.  The motor is rebuilt but who knows how well.  Even a reputable shop can still miss something.  Without it running you are again taking on a big risk. 

I'll probably just not even persue either at this point and go back to my Hudson Pickup search.   If I get a bad enough itch I could always pick up the 29 Chevy phaeton.  Not quite the same caliber but it is a phaeton in much better turn key condition. 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

I finally got a price out of the seller but it's for the pair.  Putting it at 30 G. 

 

He is going to have it a very very long time.

[Graham Man]

If you can get it for the right price the Graham should be a great car.  I would put money on having it running in a few hours.  Engine parts are easy to find.  Delco electrical parts, again easy to find, great 45-50 mph car.  Lockheed hydraulic brakes, parts are again easily available.  It looks pretty complete, 615 was the right number for 1929, the 1931 would be a "Special six 45" or a "Standard Six 46" the special had a larger engine.  The engine number or the VIN number would tell me, the VIN tag is under the carpet rear seat, passenger side, next to the sill plate.  Engine number is under the generator.  An excellent running and driving car, I own 5 Graham-Paige cars.  My 15 year old son went on a 100 mile tour with our 1929 Graham-Paige 827 last year.  He took 3 Graham Club members with him, they all had a great time, they did seem to stop a lot for ice cream? My 29 Graham is in about the same condition, completely original dual side mount car.

 

Unfortunately this car has a great frame for upping the power, it is not a Model A

[CarlLaFong]

Who do some people have this idiotic notion of selling things "as a set", or "as a collection"??? No one, who is looking for a nice old tow truck, is going to want the Graham and, conversely, anyone interested in a 5 or $6000 31 Graham is going to be willing to pony up an extra 25K to buy it and the truck. really dumb marketing, plus, I don't think the pair is worth anywhere near that kind of bank

It's like someone saying, "I want to be sure the car is stored properly, so I will only sell it to you if you buy my house and garage, as well

Edited July 6, 2016 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Selling things together means wholesale to a car dealer.  You can't get retail when you bunch stuff together.   He will have the pair for quite some time unless he splits them up.

[auburnseeker]

Well I threw him a number along with a little bonus of some signs (he's a sign collector and I just picked up a bunch of NOS 50's embossed road signs)  so we'll see.  I told him I couldn't swing that kind of purchase for the pair right now even if I wanted to.  He understood that.  I've bought stuff from him before including his Excavator and his Brother's house so he's Knows I'm not full of BS.  He might have overpaid for the Graham in the first place.  He bought it on speculation without knowing anything about graham cars much less 30's cars.   We'll see.  I'm not crossing my fingers.  Neat car but there are alot of neat cars out their in similar shape for similar money or just a little more. 

[mercer09]

Auburn,

the graham looks a little better then I imagined, but still think its all the money at 5500. dont see much room there, though some might disagree. who knows what is good or blown in the mechanics, and then one is upside down real quick.

 

I stand by what i originally stated, but pleased to see the car looks pretty decent.

 

at 30k for the pair, I have quite a bit that you might be interested in buying from me. including a bridge!

 

personally would be much more interested in a 29 chevy phaeton............ or a 32.

[alsancle]

Tom Laferriere has this for sale.   It is the 8 and looks very nice but the price is higher than I would have guessed at 50k.  He generally knows what he is doing so I think the model is a key here.

 

http://www.tomlaferriere.com/listings/1930-graham-special-eight

[auburnseeker]

50 G in restoration work and the one I posted if it was given to you for free would get you a 6 that looked almost as good but it would never be an 8.  As you mentioned the model and powertrain option makes a world of difference. Just like a V8 and V16 Cadillac. 

Edited July 10, 2016 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[alsancle]

It would be interesting to see two side shots of both models.  I'm sure the 8 has a longer hood and wheelbase, wheels look more substantial, and a higher trim level.  But still very similar cars.  The 8 might be a CCCA classic too.

[auburnseeker]

I would have been a tad more persistent if it had been an 8.   That 8 definitely has a little more Full classic look than the 6.  

[46 woodie]

I agree with Carl, this guy wants you to do what he is just too lazy to do. Graham or tow truck, no package deal. A lot of people will want the Graham but the tow truck is a limited market.

[auburnseeker]

We'll find out what the public is really wanting to pay for that Graham as the fellow that got it running and the brakes up and operational has it listed on ebay.  Ends in a few days.  I saw it in the fellows shop that got it up and running.  I'm glad I didn't offer any higher than I did.  It's just all the details that would bite me in the butt if I had bought it to resell it.  I think I'm better offf with my Hudson big boy. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122087180441?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Ronniebishop]

I am looking for headlight bulbs for my 1931 Graham