8-98 Lycoming Operating Temp

[Curt Curtiss]

I am new to this non-pressurized radiator stuff so here are my questions?

 

- What should the typical operating temp be (like 90 to 95 degree day)

 

- Should the car be able to idle at a stand still for extended periods without exceeding 212?

 

- Has anyone messed with changing the fan out for one that pulls more air?

 

We have not driving the car yet, I have just been testing it at a stand still idle. My first attempt is it ran for about 15 to 20 mins at about 80 degrees then finally crept up to 210 and I turned it off. I figured out I have the temp sensitive front grill but the mechanism was not hooked up and the salts were about half closed. 

 

I managed to figure out how to keep them fully opened and I tried again today and it was about 75 out and we ran it for about 20 mins at idle and it hit about 200 then we decided to quite and take it for a drive later today. to see if moving pushing air works better.

 

I am just trying to figure out what is normalish.

 

[Mike Dube]

In hot weather, mine generally runs190 or so at a steady 55, spiking to 200 sometimes a tad more at stops.  I am not running a thermostat, which while not generally thought  wise, works.   I had owned the car for about 5 years before I discovered this fact, and with a friend with similar car that seems to run overly hot regardless of what he tries, I decided to leave well enough alone.  I am of the mind that modern fuels are at least partially responsible for the fact that many old cars seem to run hotter than they used to.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Mike Dube (see edit history)

[Curt Curtiss]

Thanks! I am hoping mine will be in that range once I get it on the road. I am also not sure the timing is correct and I am trying to figure out how to check it out

[edinmass]

The car didn't overheat when new, and modern E10 will make them run hotter. Retarted timing, often found on many cars due to poor starters and electricial connections, will also make it run hot. I have two properly restored newly built motors in the garage now, a Pierce V-12 which will idle all day in the 90's and not get over 165 degrees, the Model J holds fine at 170 in traffic after driving for an hour in 90 degree weather. If your pushing water or flirting with 200 degrees, you have cooling system issues, could be one of any 20 problems. They are easy to fix, but require time and money. That's why most cars still have cooling problems.  I have only seen a properly restored car have over heating problems once, my 36 PA V12, climbing up mount Washington in New Hampshire. I tried to pull the hill in third gear, which it did, but low RPM and lugging the motor caused heating issues, shifting it into second solved it, and I climbed all the way to the top without any other problems, except burning 1/3 tank of gas  from the bottom to the top, eight miles and 7000 feet burned more than nine gallons of fuel. Yes, I stuck the bumper sticker on the chrome when I got to the top, with the entire crowd clapping in approval.(It's a 100 point car.) Also, why run a thermostat in a car that never had one? Also an indication of cooling issues. Ed

[Curt Curtiss]

OK, I tried something yesterday and I got some strange results. 

 

It was about 80 degrees out and I disconnected and plugged the vacuum advance port in the manifold (this has a distributor with vacuum advance that is not stock. We took it for a drive through the neighborhood and when we were cruising at 25 it ran 205 or 210, when we were under load up hill it dropped to 195 but when we were down shifting going down hill under no load it ran back up to 210-212. At idle it would stay at 210.

 

I checked the vacuum set up on the distributor and it looks like at full vacuum it retards the ignition. I have had some guys look at it and say it should not have full manifold vacuum so I am looking for some guidance form anyone who is familiar with this conversion.

 

I am still thinking it has something to do with the timing but have not ruled out a radiator issue.

 

Has anyone had a custom radiator built with extra cores for cooling capacity or aluminum technology?

[Matt Harwood]

Do you trust the gauge? Have you actually verified the temperatures that the gauge is indicating? On the '33 Auburn 8 I had, you could see the wind blow against the front of the car at a stop light because the gauge would move--it was that sensitive. That car also ran ice cold at 160 or so.

 

You should also see a very significant drop in temperature between the top of the radiator and the bottom, and many use one of those inexpensive infrared thermometers to see temperatures on various parts. That can give you a clue as to how efficiently your radiator is working. There are other issues that could also do it, including fuel mixture, high back pressure in the exhaust, and the wrong fan. I'm inclined to agree with Ed that they didn't overheat when they were new, but they aren't new and conditions are different today than they were in the 1930s. High-speed travel, sitting in traffic, etc. can make a difference. It shouldn't overheat, but it's not surprising that it runs a little hot after this many years. Plus, in straight-8 engines in particular, there's a tendency to collect sediment and rust in the water jackets in the back of the block. Many people have experienced big improvements by pulling the core plugs and digging around in there with a wire and flushing the system thoroughly. I did that on my '41 Buick Limited and it went from 210 degrees and puking coolant at idle to a rock-solid 160-170 under all but the most extreme conditions. There was A LOT of crud in there, and this is an engine that was rebuilt 5000 miles ago. It's definitely a factor.

 

First, make sure it's really running that hot and that the gauge is trustworthy. Then start working towards getting everything back to original spec. Upgraded radiators should not be necessary and are often a band-aid. Keep us posted on what you find!

[Curt Curtiss]

The last owner installed an aux temp gauge because the factory gauge did not work. I did check with an IR and it looked to be very close to accurate.

 

I checked the thermostat housing and it read about 210, the top neck of the radiator was about 205 and the bottom neck of the radiator was between 137 and 145 as I recall. The water jackets around the cylinders seemed to be in the 170 range but the top head area was more in the 200 range.

 

Have any of you tried Water Wetter, trying to see if it can hurt anything?

 

Here are some things I plan to try next:

 

- Time the engine by vacuum

- Test radiator flow (hopefully while on the car)

- Check to see if there is a thermostat and if so is it working correctly.

- See if I can open block cooling ports and clean them out.

- Install a new 50/50 mix of coolant

- Inspect Water Pump impeller (note sure how to do this one yet)

 

 

[Curt Curtiss]

OK, I think I might finally be onto something. 

 

I think I mentioned this has a Chrysler distributor in the car. I looked up the part number and it is out of a Dodge 318 and as I looked into it the Chrysler turns clockwise. So I started looking at the Lycoming 8-98 and the firing order has it turning counter clock wise. This confirms it is creating a timing issue since turning backwards I am pretty sure the counter weights are not advancing the timing. Now to track down the original dual point distributor. 

[bradsan]

Curt

 

Another thing to think about is whether your water jacket cover still has the baffle inside it .  Supposed to be there to direct  water to the rear of the engine which is where the temperature sending unit happens to be.

The originals usually rust away allowing the water to 'short circuit' to the front and leaving a dead circulation space at the rear. Or so the theory goes!

I had a new baffle made from stainless and JB welded it into the cover ( fingers crossed!). Scaled the hole location from the news letter article as the author has since passed away. I think the photo in the article is actually of an Auburn jacket, not Cord ( inlet pipe pointing the wrong way for Cord I think!!!)

See club news letter  Vol LII No 10  2004

 

Brad

Edited July 5, 2016 by bradsan
correction: thermostat should have temperature sending unit . Jeesh!!!! Thermostat at front and temperature sender at rear. Sorry for any confusion (see edit history)

[Curt Curtiss]

WOW, that is cool. Which JB weld did you use, the classic or the newer putty?

 

Since we are fairly new ACD members and the forum has been having problems I have bit been able to access old news letters. I just sent them another note asking to correct my permissions then I can do some reading

[bradsan]

Curt

 

I used the classic putty. I'm hoping the temperature stays within the range for the putty. It should !

That side cover was a royal pain. Holes did not want to match up and you can't afford to cross thread the 1/4x28 screws in holes that might be a bit sloppy from corrosion.

The forum has been working  better of late.

The club sells a CD that is searchable pdf's of all past news letters. I think you can get it from the online store.

The cost supports the club !

 

Brad

[edinmass]

Looking at the photo links of your cars, and looking at the under hood photos, I see what is all too common, modern parts and incorrect hardware, and along with the issue of non authentic judging issues and improper parts causing additional problems like a wrong distributor, modern wiring and wires, ect,ect,ect it is usually an indication of people who are not familiar working on pre wars cars, which compounds every issue they try to address, usually not solving the problem, but adding to it. Fact is most all (95%) of pre war cars are not set up correctly or dialed in. I spend most of my time sorting cars for people so they can drive them. It's difficult and time consuming work, and VERY expensive. A correct authentic part is ALWAYS the least expensive way to fix a car.......in the long run. Why would anyone on a open Auburn use a Dodge distributor on the car..........It speaks volumes that you going to be dealing with lots of other issues also. If you are repairing a car and can't get it to run with easy to aquire parts, what makes them think they are quailified to swap out a distributor for another. I bet the carb jetting is incorrect, the fuel system is probably compromised several ways, and the front end is loose and the steering box out of adjustment. I am not condemning the car or critizing it in any way. Just 40 years of experience tells me when simple things are so far off, you gonna find LOTS more stuff if you look. Ed

 

By the way, nice cars, I take care of several ACD cars, including a 35 Speedster. Currently we are sorting it after it has been sitting for 20 years. I am removing a poorly installed electric fuel pump, a battery cut off switch, and attending to a few other items. It drives nice, and gets lots of looks. Can't wait to get it all dialed in and put a few hundred miles on it. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[vintagerodshop]

I agree with Ed. As you approach your repairs please try to do so with the mindset of returning the car to correcting previous repairs. It may take more time and you may have a car that now is on the road less, but in the long run you will protect your investment and create more value in the future. If not, over time with the addition of non correct parts masking bigger problems you will find the car will deteriorate and your ownership enjoyment will decrease. As a former hotroder i had no problem with using any part that fit the need and was convenient. As a "born again restorer" I have found a huge enjoyment in the challenge of being authentic and treating the car with respect. We are not only owners we are also custodians for future owners. I am 38 and own a number of prewar and brass era cars. some i will sell many i will keep for a very long time. If i own a car that was built in 1931 for 30 of 40 more years the next owner may find it completely impossible to make that car correct. Many of the "old guard" of prewar owners have a incredible amount of knowledge you should try to harvest and build upon for yourself. There are few younger people that are passionate about these cars and it is our responsibility to carry it forward.

 

I am very sorry if i come across as being on a soap box. I have seen some pictures of your car and it is very nice Congratulations with the purchase and i wish you many trouble free miles. As much fun as it is to own and work on get out and drive it to share with the people that say Auburn? is that a European make? haha

[vintagerodshop]

I should also mention, take a close look at the rad. many people think the only thing that can go wrong with one is to leak. They get overlooked during a restoration and just coated with paint. Pull it and get it boiled out and flow tested installing a fan that pull more air will not help if the coolant does not flow. also have a look at the water pump impeller. they can corrode and the flow / pressure volume may be greatly affected.