Problem Bleeding rebuilt original Master Cylinder power Vacuum Booster - 1956 Century Riviera 60 series

[killy_4_u]

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 7:06 AM, Bob Engle said:

The old asbestos brake lining worked great, these new synthetics are too hard and take greater pedal effort and create more heat than the softer linings.  In the 50's 20,000 miles was great lining life.  People with a nervous brake pedal foot got about 10,000 miles.  Seek out a shops that has the softer linings to reline your shoes and you will be happy with the old systems.

 

Bob Engle

Thank you Bob, that's exactly the input I was looking for - as well as seeking a riveted shoe versus bonded. Sometimes a new solution is better and was just wondering if there's anything better than the asbestos. If asbestos is still the best then that's what I'll get. Seems some just want to make assumptions about the nature of the inquires, flex knowledge, and push preachy lectures or sermons rather than help. It's all good though, I know where that comes from.

[killy_4_u]

In case any one is interested, I found this TOTALLY AWESOME stuff today in my area!

http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pts/5603943955.html

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/showthread.php?25819-1956-Buick-Century-Project/page2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Buick-Power-Brake-Complete-Conversion-REBUILT-Special-Century-/131837940756?hash=item1eb2275414:g:CZQAAOSwOVpXUyO2&vxp=mtr
 

Edited June 6, 2016 by killy_4_u (see edit history)

[buick man]

... thanks for posting killy, hope it all turns out O.K. for you and keep us all up to date  :')

[Beemon]

7 hours ago, killy_4_u said:

In case any one is interested, I found this TOTALLY AWESOME stuff today in my area!

http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pts/5603943955.html

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/showthread.php?25819-1956-Buick-Century-Project/page2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Buick-Power-Brake-Complete-Conversion-REBUILT-Special-Century-/131837940756?hash=item1eb2275414:g:CZQAAOSwOVpXUyO2&vxp=mtr
 

While the idea is great, and I've seen these types of mods done before, going to a new system like this is really a waste of time. Ask me how I know.

[killy_4_u]

 

11 hours ago, Beemon said:

While the idea is great, and I've seen these types of mods done before, going to a new system like this is really a waste of time. Ask me how I know.

 

I already went through the trouble of having mine rebuilt and getting it in that tight little spot and getting ready to bleed the system so I can't turn back now if I wanted to. And most everything I've read from others' experiences is that the PSI translated to direct braking bite from the stock unit versus something like this is unbeatable. But, a few months ago I might've considered this and even now, I'm really contemplating having some kind of backup to keep on my shelf for the future because I really don't want to deal with this MC again. Such a hassle she's been. I spent less time on every other project on this car so far than this. He's selling the whole kit for $500 which comes with everything needed minus lines. He's reporting excellent results so it's pretty compelling. But what made me pretty excited was reading your experience of trying a newer system and then reverting to stock so I do remember that and it makes me less apprehensive about my stock rebuild. I'd love to hear you elaborate on your experience and story though! My MC has a lifetime warranty (my lifetime) but it would be so cool to buy that rebuilt setup so it's ready to go in case mine ever does need rebuilt again. But, in that time, do you think the other one, if I were to buy it, might have issues as well from age alone? At the very least, I can send it away for rebuild and not be without being able to drive my car for the long turn-around time. Sorry for the lengthy response. I'm kind of obsessed with the brake system now.

[killy_4_u]

Does anyone have a good source for NOS front shoes or the like? If stock is the way to go for these and there's nothing better, finding them is now the challenge! Rock Auto has the shoes for the Special, but not Century. Aren't they the same? 12.00" x 2.25" or 305mm x 57mm.

Edited June 7, 2016 by killy_4_u (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Old-Tank gave some great advice in post #37. Ideally you want to either reuse the original shoes that are riveted or buy some new shoes that are riveted and then find yourself a brake specialist and have better materials arced and riveted to your shoe.

 

NAPA and O'Reilly only sells bonded. I personally have not had an issue with them, but then I also have not driven the car with better shoes. I believe Autozone supposedly sells the riveted shoes, so if you need a pair quick, I would check there. I can't comment on their quality but the idea is to have them relined anyways.

 

Lastly, there was an extensive thread done in the Modified board about a conversion and the gentlemen working on his brakes could not find a decent substitute to the stock master cylinder. There's a lot of technical done. In my personal experience, there is no safety gains going from a single to a dual master cylinder - the safety is only as good as the upkeep. In short, my 02 Jeep Liberty had stock rubber hoses on the front wheels and I had a wild animal jump out in front of me last year (so the lines are over 10 years old). The car stopped but I lost all brakes due to blowing one of the lines in the front, contrary to belief that you will still have brakes in the event of failure in one of the lines. That's what sold me on the stock MC

Edited June 8, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[killy_4_u]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

Old-Tank gave some great advice in post #37. Ideally you want to either reuse the original shoes that are riveted or buy some new shoes that are riveted and then find yourself a brake specialist and have better materials arced and riveted to your shoe.

 

NAPA and Autozone only sells bonded. I personally have not had an issue with them, but then I also have not driven the car with better shoes. I believe Autozone supposedly sells the riveted shoes, so if you need a pair quick, I would check there. I can't comment on their quality but the idea is to have them relined anyways.

 

Lastly, there was an extensive thread done in the Modified board about a conversion and the gentlemen working on his brakes could not find a decent substitute to the stock master cylinder. There's a lot of technical done. In my personal experience, there is no safety gains going from a single to a dual master cylinder - the safety is only as good as the upkeep. In short, my 02 Jeep Liberty had stock rubber hoses on the front wheels and I had a wild animal jump out in front of me last year (so the lines are over 10 years old). The car stopped but I lost all brakes due to blowing one of the lines in the front, contrary to belief that you will still have brakes in the event of failure in one of the lines. That's what sold me on the stock MC

 

That's all very in depth! Admittedly, I don't understand all of the science and calculations behind all of that but it's got me thinking. About the foot and MC ratios for instance. I haven't changed anything from when I took my unit out to how it is back in. Is there any pedal adjustment I should consider? Before my MC started acting up it braked really well besides the fade issue going downhill for considerable distances. The pedal didn't go all the way to the floor. Is there really an adjustment for this? To the modern master cylinder argument, I had a '66 Mustang with an upgraded dual circuit MC and one of the rear hoses was 1/2" from my exhaust, melted the hose, and I had zero brakes instantly. I had to e-brake her home. Speaking of which, my Century e-brake doesn't work very well. It kind of works, but on an incline she'll roll slowly. Is this a simple adjustment or do I need to replace parts?

Edited June 7, 2016 by killy_4_u (see edit history)

[Beemon]

The stock MC should be about 1" from the floor when the shoes are properly adjusted and the pedal is held in the applied position. This was about 3-4 clicks for me on the shoe adjuster. There is an adjusting pin for the hanging brake pedal, but it's only there to align the pushrod. You just kind of spin it until the pushrod moves freely on the MC. If you pedal comes back up without assistance, then you're in good shape.

 

As for your parking brake, there is an adjustment nut on the equalizer to tighten it. Make sure you adjust your shoes first, and then play with the parking brake. I adjusted mine with a helper in the car. What I did was tighten it until the pedal under the dash started to move, and then un-tightened it until the pedal returned to it's un-applied position, or until the jewel light went off. There should also be a pedal return spring that is attached to the equalizer and differential carrier.

 

Hope this helps!

[killy_4_u]

18 hours ago, Beemon said:

The stock MC should be about 1" from the floor when the shoes are properly adjusted and the pedal is held in the applied position. This was about 3-4 clicks for me on the shoe adjuster. There is an adjusting pin for the hanging brake pedal, but it's only there to align the pushrod. You just kind of spin it until the pushrod moves freely on the MC. If you pedal comes back up without assistance, then you're in good shape.

 

As for your parking brake, there is an adjustment nut on the equalizer to tighten it. Make sure you adjust your shoes first, and then play with the parking brake. I adjusted mine with a helper in the car. What I did was tighten it until the pedal under the dash started to move, and then un-tightened it until the pedal returned to it's un-applied position, or until the jewel light went off. There should also be a pedal return spring that is attached to the equalizer and differential carrier.

 

Hope this helps!

 

It helps a ton, thanks!

[killy_4_u]

Still trying to find asbestos riveted shoes.

[buick5563]

Good luck.

[50jetback]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-1953-1954-1955-BUICK-1955-1956-1957-1958-PONTIAC-BRAKE-LININGS-SCTA-/322144145015?hash=item4b01498e77:g:aNUAAOSwepJXWaJ-&vxp=mtr

[old-tank]

9 hours ago, 50jetback said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-1953-1954-1955-BUICK-1955-1956-1957-1958-PONTIAC-BRAKE-LININGS-SCTA-/322144145015?hash=item4b01498e77:g:aNUAAOSwepJXWaJ-&vxp=mtr

Good luck getting someone to install and arc those shoes if asbestos.  Those shoes would probably serve you well, but you CAN specify linings that will function as good or better.

[buick man]

Like the old Ray-Asbestos linings, if your linings are asbestos all you need to wear is a 3M filter paper mask while arching as it is the filaments that cause the eventual problems and only if exposed for extended periods of time. Asbestos does not have a half life so no need to freak out.

[killy_4_u]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:08 AM, old-tank said:

Good luck getting someone to install and arc those shoes if asbestos.  Those shoes would probably serve you well, but you CAN specify linings that will function as good or better.

 

As previously discussed with others, the consensus from most here was that the old asbestos perform best with drums. If you have any suggestions on a better shoe or lining, I'm totally all ears. I don't WANT asbestos necessarily, I want what will function best. Especially when it comes to heat / fade since I'm keeping all drums where heat & fade is a problem. I'm all about finding something better but most every one has steered me towards asbestos for the best performance on the old drums. I don't care if a pair of shoes cost $100,  or even a little more, if they work better to stop my bigger investment, I'll get them.

Edited June 11, 2016 by killy_4_u (see edit history)

[old-tank]

The asbestos shoes will work...may or may not be the best.

I bought a set like you are looking at.

Local clutch/brake rebuilder would not install (cited OSHA and/or EPA regs).

They did install linings that I specified:  softer, more aggressive, and will stop 2 tons of Buick quickly and with no fade.

The linings work well:  will lock brakes at any speed; stop straight; have negligible wear after 20,000 miles; no fade even in mountains if driven sensibly.

They were more expensive than over the counter shoes.

Good linings are out there.

 

[killy_4_u]

59 minutes ago, old-tank said:

The asbestos shoes will work...may or may not be the best.

I bought a set like you are looking at.

Local clutch/brake rebuilder would not install (cited OSHA and/or EPA regs).

They did install linings that I specified:  softer, more aggressive, and will stop 2 tons of Buick quickly and with no fade.

The linings work well:  will lock brakes at any speed; stop straight; have negligible wear after 20,000 miles; no fade even in mountains if driven sensibly.

They were more expensive than over the counter shoes.

Good linings are out there.

 

 

Any way of being able to explain the type of material used on yours besides softer, more aggressive? Is there an actual material or compound I can reference? Such as asbestos, ceramic, etc. There is a place here in my city called "Ott's Friction" that specializes in heavy duty brakes for big cars and big trucks. They mentioned a very super "aggressive" material like you mentioned but someone else told me the "aggressive" types are usually a hard material. not soft when softer is what I've been looking for since people explain asbestos as "softer" not hard.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by killy_4_u (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Sheesh... just forget the adjectives (soft, aggressive) and the "someone else" (who told you) and tell Ott's Friction that you want to stop 2 tons of Buick reliably with the least pedal effort.

[killy_4_u]

Alright, I'm finally ready to start bleeding. About the brake light switch, do I need to get that now and install it before the bleed? I'm guessing it's activated by fluid pressure, is that the case? So if I change it after I'll need to bleed again?

[buick5563]

You should get one and install before you bleed it, but  I have changed a brake light switch without bleeding after with no ill effects.

[50jetback]

6 hours ago, killy_4_u said:

Alright, I'm finally ready to start bleeding. About the brake light switch, do I need to get that now and install it before the bleed? I'm guessing it's activated by fluid pressure, is that the case? So if I change it after I'll need to bleed again?

 

 

So what bleeding method have you decided to use?

[killy_4_u]

I went with classic 2-person. It was so much easier that way and I got them done in no time and they work great! The heat is still an issue after a bit of driving and braking and the fade sets in. Is there any way around that without discs?

[Beemon]

Aluminum drums, but that requires modification of your backing plates, you need a shim to adapt the different hubs. You could also try and find 2.5" drums, shoes and backing plates off of a Roadmaster.