1950s Cars At Auction?

[poci1957]

For better or worse we all see the TV auctions and I am a critic, BUT the time may come that we need to sell a car and I wonder if anyone here has actually consigned a car to one of the big auctions and if you have any advice for a new participant?

 

Specifically, my focus is 1950s Pontiacs, which have a following but are not generally an "icon" of a car.  I have been asked how to decide a suitable auction for a 1950s Pontiac and how procedures and reserve work for the seller.  So lets say the car is a 1955 Pontiac 2dr hardtop with a complete authentic restoration but not totally fresh; a nice #2+ but not a "featured attraction" sort of a car.  Maybe an AACA First Junior or POCI points judged with the sheen worn off.  How do you determine which auction is best suitable?  Do you want to pay shipping from Indiana to the big January Arizona auctions with lots of deep pocket buyers but maybe be lost in the crowd?  Or do you want to go to an Auburn or Indianapolis auction closer to home where you may get better exposure but to a smaller group?  And what about reserve--we are concerned about being on the block at an off time with no reserve.  What do you think?  Todd C   

[padgett]

Problem with big auctions is that the lesser cars usually run at off times and I see some bargains (good for buyer, not so for seller). Premiums are usually less for no reserve. The ACD show is probably your best bet for that era or maybe even (shudder) eBay.

 

Issue with marque forums/clubs is that unless this is a well known or special car everyone is looking for a bargain. For a '50s Pontiac that is mostly Bonnevilles and 'verts. An average car will probably do better on Craigslist.

Edited May 24, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

I've sat in on several of the auctions that are run in conjunction with the Spring and Fall Carlisle swap meets.  The biggest take-away from that experience is that the vast majority of cars that cross the stage at that venue do not sell.  Nearly all are unsold with reserve not met.  The cars that don't sell go back into the parking lot with a "still for sale" sticker on the windshield.  Occasionally, the seller, buyer, and auction house will negotiate after the failed sale and come to an agreement on price and fees.  Like casinos, only the house is guaranteed to profit.

[Frantz]

I sat through a few hours of the Mecum auction when it was in Harrisburg and was surprised by the number of cars that didn't sell, when I felt the bidding was fair to high. I think what often happens is that the seller takes their value of the car, adds the fees and calls that their reserve, then no one touches the deal. At least that's what it felt like to me. I would think finding the right private buyer would get you more. IMO selling at an auction is sorta like trading your late model to the dealership. At the end of the day, you get a wholesale price and they get most of the other margin. It's a fair way to do business, so depending on your aim, it works fine.

[poci1957]

5 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I've sat in on several of the auctions that are run in conjunction with the Spring and Fall Carlisle swap meets.  The biggest take-away from that experience is that the vast majority of cars that cross the stage at that venue do not sell.  Nearly all are unsold with reserve not met.  Like casinos, only the house is guaranteed to profit.

 

Well THAT is for sure about who profits!  Interesting that so many seem to be unsold, still interested in others opinion of which auctions are best for a 1950s car and the other questions, Todd C

[Guest]

Hey Todd,

 The question you have to ask is, are the people who go to auctions looking for a 50's Pontiac local people or are they people who would fly in with money. With exceptions excluded most of those folks are not real high dollar people and would not fly in. You might want to start with checking the rosters of the POCI chapters where a mid 50's Pontiac has a following- call up their chapter heads. I have been to a few POCI meets in Southern California and just a few months back in AZ and the interest doesn't seem to be there as in hardly any cars and it's even worse is for the folks in the early times chapter. So check and see where the action location is for a 55 Pontiac and if it's too far to go put the car in Hemmings, Smoke Signals. As you know consignment and transportation can really eat into the bottom line.

FYI there is a 1955, 870 Catalina for sale in So. Cal. A 287 4bbl 200 hp with HydraMatic and Factory A/C. It's beautiful and it has been on the market for months. Why ? Price.

Edited May 24, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[poci1957]

8 minutes ago, helfen said:

So check and see where the action location is for a 55 Pontiac and if it's too far to go put the car in Hemmings, Smoke Signals. As you know consignment and transportation can really eat into the bottom line.

 

That is for sure, my person has the idea that the Arizona auctions will get a wider audience and theoretically not leave money on the table, plus they have been drawn in by the high profile from seeing them on TV.  I do not know if it would justify the shipping and other costs, not to mention fees, and no one I know here has ever sold a car at a big auction.  How much is the Catalina?   

Edited May 24, 2016 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, poci1957 said:

 

That is for sure, my person has the idea that the Arizona auctions will get a wider audience and theoretically not leave money on the table, plus they have been drawn in by the high profile from seeing them on TV.  I do not know if it would justify the shipping and other costs, not to mention fees, and no one I know here has ever sold a car at a big auction.  How much is the Catalina?   

Hi Todd, the 870 Catalina asking price is 36K which seems high. As you know restorations for most everyday antique cars far exceed the value hence the high price. In the 50's cars the ones that I see getting those prices and  "more" like a 57 Bonneville, are 58's and 59's. 57 StarChief is also moving up because of the high price of the 57 Bonneville so if you want that style and luxury in a reasonable price Star Chief  is the ticket.

[John_S_in_Penna]

6 hours ago, Frantz said:

I sat through a few hours of the Mecum auction when it was in Harrisburg and was surprised by the number of cars that didn't sell, when I felt the bidding was fair to high. I think what often happens is that the seller takes their value of the car, adds the fees and calls that their reserve, then no one touches the deal. ...

 

Take special note of the auction fees.  

These days, there are both buyer's fees and seller's fees,

which can be, I understand, around 10% for the seller

and 10% for the buyer at many places.  In reality, you, the seller,

are paying them BOTH.

 

Consider a Pontiac worth $30,000.  I wouldn't bid $30,000,

since I would have fees to pay.  I'd bid up to $27,000.

Then the auction house would take their 10% cut and you,

the seller, would end up with $24,300.  Of course, you would

have transportation charges to the auction--and back from the

auction if the car didn't sell.  And your time is worth something,

since you'd probably have a day or two in travel, plus motel costs.

So maybe your take-home net would be $23,000 for a close auction,

$21,000 for an Arizona auction.  And this for a car worth $30,000!

 

And I think the number of fools who overpay at auctions is

greatly overestimated, if you look at auction results in Old Cars Weekly

or in Hemmings.

 

I say:  Advertise your car yourself for a fair price.  People don't

respond much to overpriced cars.  Anything above $23,000 for the

$30,000 car is actually better than an auction! 

Edited May 24, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[poci1957]

That math all makes sense of course and I agree with you on that.  I think the thought of people possibly overpaying is the attraction and my guy wants to maximize his sale.  I guess to we Midwesterners constantly fed the TV auctions it is hard to accept that they can't benefit from overheated hype like everyone on TV appears to.  Of course I'm my world that 10% fee itself seems like a lot to give away, not to mention the other costs.  How much might it cost for enclosed transport from, say, Chicago to Phoenix?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, poci1957 said:

That math all makes sense of course and I agree with you on that.  I think the thought of people possibly overpaying is the attraction and my guy wants to maximize his sale.  I guess to we Midwesterners constantly fed the TV auctions it is hard to accept that they can't benefit from overheated hype like everyone on TV appears to.  Of course I'm my world that 10% fee itself seems like a lot to give away, not to mention the other costs.  How much might it cost for enclosed transport from, say, Chicago to Phoenix?

It is Todd, but so is 6% on a 500K house that never made it even to the brokers open house.

[Paul Dobbin]

I agree with all of the above and remind everyone that the 25+% loss at auction is much less than the 33- 50% loss in value suffered when the collector dies and the family must do the sale or hire it done.  

[poci1957]

Given how many of the auctions there are I am still a bit surprised no one in our group has responded that they themselves have sold one at auction before.  What about our pros like Restorer32 who maybe represented a car for a customer?  My $30,000 Pontiac would be in a minor league by comparison but anybody got tips from representing a seller? Thanks, Todd C

Edited May 25, 2016 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

All of the comments above get right to the heart of the matter, so you should do the math. You see big numbers on TV, but you're seeing the cars they want you to see, usually during prime-time. You are not seeing the cars that sold for under-market (if it's a no-reserve auction) or didn't sell at all (reserve auction), and you're not seeing the cars that just died on the block. Many people come into my shop and ask why I don't just send all my cars to auction, since that seems to be the best way to get top dollar.

 

Well, yes and no. If you have a one-of-a-kind Ferrari or other rare car with a bulletproof pedigree, interesting history, and top-quality restoration, sure, it will bring a big dollar and break records.

All other cars sell for much, much less and usually less than market value. Remember that nobody goes to an auction to pay top dollar, they go looking for a bargain on a sleeper. I currently have an E-code 1957 Ford Retractable (one of 39 built) in my inventory that was purchased for far less than market value simply because the fellow who bought it spotted the dual quads on the engine and knew it was special, so he raised his limit accordingly. When it was on the block, there was only one other bidder who dropped out at a price roughly equal to a standard Retractable, somehow unaware that it was an E-code. My buyer got a screaming bargain and the seller probably cried himself to sleep that night. That kind of stuff happens dozens of times at every single auction.

 

Also remember that the prices reported in magazines usually include buyer AND seller fees (although the TV shows don't usually include the buyer's premium in the price shown). The seller only took home 80-85% of that figure, and he also paid to ship the car there, paid an entry fee, maybe paid for upgraded placement, and, well, suddenly the auction goldmine doesn't seem quite so amazing. People love to assume that auction buyers are idiots with more money than brains, but that's not true. Auctions don't somehow magically make people stupid and willing to over-pay. If you see a car sell for more than you think it should, either your gauge is off or there was something special about that car. Do not assume that the auction company will somehow find two rich idiots who want to fight over your car. You'll get guys looking to pay under market value.

 

I have sent many cars to auction and to be honest, auctions are where I send my turds--cars I don't want to put my name on. No test drive, no lift, just a car sitting there on the block. Perfect for dumping some trash. And there's A LOT of trash at auctions, even though they look great on TV. There are many people in the hobby, myself included, that believe that we've reached "peak auction" and all the truly great cars have already been sold. You can't keep stocking auctions with thousands of cars and have all of them be spectacular. The good ones have already changed hands and many collectors are dumping their second- and third-tier cars at this point. If you've ever been to one of Mecum's big bonanza week-long auctions with 5000 cars, you've probably noticed just how crappy the cars truly are. Row after row of wavy bodywork and grungy engines. There might be two or three dozen truly great ones, but the rest are just cannon fodder. Where will your car fit in? The trash runs early and late, prime time takes a special car and/or an extra payment.

 

If it's a good car, I can usually get as good or better results for my clients than an auction. I have an infinite amount of time to find them, I offer the confidence of test drives and inspections, and I'm going to stand behind the car. All of those things make buyers more comfortable with the buying process. A lot of people are buyers but they're just not comfortable in the fast-paced, don't stop and think, I've got butterflies in my stomach auction environment.

 

As a seller, you are going to be pressured from the first moment you sign the contract to lower your reserve. You can hold fast, but they'll remember that and won't work very hard to sell your car when it hits the block. They will tell you that your car isn't worth what you think it is (they're probably right). They will tell you that they'll give you better placement if you lower the reserve. They'll tell you that a lower reserve will attract more bidders and the final price will probably be higher. Are those things true? I don't know.

 

Also, most auctions will have a "tail" on their contracts. That means that they have exclusive rights to sell the car for, say, the next 90 or 120 days after the auction ends. They've promoted the car, they've invested in it, that's probably fair. But don't think that you'll be making a deal with someone afterwards and cutting the auction company out of it. They'll own 5-20% of your car for some time after the auction ends.

 

Finally, I just sold this 1955 Pontiac Chieftain Catalina three weeks ago for a price-guide-crushing $39,000. It was an AACA Senior car with what appeared to be about 6200 original miles (not a typo), so that kind of sets the very top of the market. It didn't take long to sell, but it was also an extraordinary car. I was honestly surprised that it went so quickly and for so much, and I bet I found the one guy willing to pay a big price for such a car. Is there another guy like that? No idea, but probably not because I haven't heard from him asking if this car is still available.

 

http://www.harwoodmotors.com/vehicles/inventory_details.php?id=607

 

Auctions can work, and if you like the idea, I'd encourage you to talk to the auction companies and see about their fee schedules and requirements. I would suggest that you do one closer to home to cut your overhead--the Indy auction is well-attended, as is Auburn, so I don't think you need Scottsdale to land a buyer. The guys with truly big money don't want your car anyway--sorry. You're hoping for an opportunity buyer, a guy with $30,000 in his pocket looking for a nice old car. You're hoping your car will talk to someone so he'll want to own it. But you won't find a dummy looking to show off to his friends on a 1955 Pontiac.

 

I think you can try to sell it yourself but it'll take time. Even with all my resources and experience, it is rare for a car to sell in less than 90 days. Guys run one Hemmings ad, get no response, and figure, "Well, the market is tanked, nobody has any money, my car won't sell." Or they get one phone call and figure that the car is sold and let off the throttle instead of pushing ahead with more advertising. I get between 45 and 50 inquiries before a car sells, on average. If I sold a car to every guy who said, "I'm interested in your car," I'd sell ten times more cars than I do. Tire-kickers outnumber buyers by at least 50:1. So if you go it alone, expect it to take time and expect to invest considerable money in advertising and marketing. One ad in Hemmings won't cut it these days.

 

God that's a lot of words. I hope it's helpful...

[Guest]

It was Matt, thanks. Your words are helpful.

The Pontiac you sold was another 870 Catalina and a great price considering it's not the top tier StarChief. Must have been some car.

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, poci1957 said:

...How much might it cost for enclosed transport from, say, Chicago to Phoenix?

 

I would estimate $1500 per car.

That is one way.  

If the car didn't sell, you'd have to make

arrangements again, and pay another $1500.

Edited May 25, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Regarding high auction fees:

One pleasant exception is the Central Pennsylvania

Auto Auction near me.  Once a year, each July,

they hold an antique car auction in Lock Haven, Pa.

 

Their fees last year were (and probably are for 2016)

as follows:

Vehicle registration fee $275 per vehicle;

Seller's fee 4% ($500 minimum, $2000 maximum);

Buyer's fee 4% ($500 minimum, $2000 maximum);

ZERO charge to register to bid.

 

So you may find their fees less than half of some other venues'.

I've attended, and a $30,000 car would be right in the sweet spot.

I've seen $5000 cars there, even a Duesenberg sedan that hammered

$400,000 and didn't sell.  It probably isn't the best place to sell 

a Duesenberg, but for the typical 1950's cars, it's excellent.

 

Are there other good auctions (Silver, VanderBrink, etc.)

that charge more reasonable fees?

[trimacar]

Wow, besides the low fees, the auction mentioned in Pennsylvania appears to have some nice, quality cars.....

 

I deleted the link because it apparently didn't work, just Google the name of the auction company and you'll find the car list...some very nice cars

Edited May 25, 2016 by trimacar (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

22 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Wow, besides the low fees, the auction mentioned in Pennsylvania appears to have some nice, quality cars.....

 

David, for some reason that link took me to a collector-car dealership

in Minnesota selling off cars from a junkyard.

 

Here's a good way to see the cars registered for the auction so far:

http://www.cpaautoauction.com/view/annual_antique___classic_auction

And then, on their website, click on "Hemmings."

 

They normally auction off regular used cars;  but once a year

they have an excellent antique car auction.

 

[poci1957]

10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Remember that nobody goes to an auction to pay top dollar, they go looking for a bargain on a sleeper.

 

People love to assume that auction buyers are idiots with more money than brains, but that's not true. Auctions don't somehow magically make people stupid and willing to over-pay. Do not assume that the auction company will somehow find two rich idiots who want to fight over your car. You'll get guys looking to pay under market value.

 

The guys with truly big money don't want your car anyway--sorry. You're hoping for an opportunity buyer, a guy with $30,000 in his pocket looking for a nice old car. You're hoping your car will talk to someone so he'll want to own it. But you won't find a dummy looking to show off to his friends on a 1955 Pontiac.

 

God that's a lot of words. I hope it's helpful...

 

It is a lot of words and very helpful to me, thanks Matt for taking the time and thanks to everyone else too.  As an old car guy around since the early 1980s I am amazed at the way the big auctions have come to dominate the public image of the hobby and suck all the air from the room.  Central IL has lots of old car fans of varying level of involvement and somehow cable TV has all seeing Barrett-Jackson and Richard Rawlings (OMG kill me now....) as the arbiters of the hobby.  Around here many more people know Scottsdale than Hershey and I assume that is the case nationwide now.  And your comments about people picturing rich guys fighting to overpay are spot on, when in fact you must be right, logically the buyers must be looking for their own idea of a bargain--and a deal is only mental.   

 

Your 1955 Chieftain was quite a find and certainly top of market but for a really rare specimen at that low mileage.  So speaking of buyers, generally speaking who was the buyer demographically?  Was it the 75 year old who wanted a 1955 Pontiac when he was 15?  Or was it the guy you describe above who likes 1950s cars and had some cash to budget and then noticed he could buy a distinctive Pontiac for 60-70% of the price of a 1955 Chevy?  And what does he plan to do with the car, if you know?  Thanks again to everyone for your comments, Todd C       

[padgett]

Yes, thank you Matt. I had never heard of a tail before (but the only auction I've bought a car at was a police auction). Condition is everything but location is important also. At an auction you need to find two people wanting it, not just one. Have also heard of special people getting special deals (auction company waiving fees or guaranteeing a minimum).

 

You are right, only sell cars I do not want to keep and this century have bought/sold more through Craigslist than anything else. If under $10k it is a good place and local.

[John348]

Todd really makes a great point, looking at it now there really is not any dedicated auctions just for the sale of 50's cars. There is a lot of expense involved hoping that more then one person wants to buy your car. 

[poci1957]

14 minutes ago, John348 said:

There is a lot of expense involved hoping that more then one person wants to buy your car. 

 

Yes, and I am still trying to decide if my 1950s Pontiac buyer is still shopping in Hemmings and club magazines, or are they online, or going to an auction.  I wouldn't have thought about Craigslist for a restored collector car, but I may be wrong about that.  I can say that I have been an active hobbyist for 35 years and have actually attended a national old car auction only a few times, and then only because there was a car show or swap meet attached.    

[Restorer32]

14 hours ago, poci1957 said:

Given how many of the auctions there are I am still a bit surprised no one in our group has responded that they themselves have sold one at auction before.  What about our pros like Restorer32 who maybe represented a car for a customer?  My $30,000 Pontiac would be in a minor league by comparison but anybody got tips from representing a seller? Thanks, Todd C

We don't buy or sell ( other than our own cars and then rarely) nor represent cars for customers beyond maybe mentioning to friends and on these forums that a car is available. As restorers we made the decision early on to avoid like the plague questions such as "what is my car worth?" and especially "what will my car be worth after it is restored?". We see it as a conflict of interest. We sell our services by the hour and leave it up to owners to decide whether their car is worth spending the money on.  We do prepare cars for several customers who do the auction circuit. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. Detailing a '57 Biarritz at the moment. I have a Model A Tudor, all original, drivable, apparently original paint and interior. I intend to consign it to a local "farm sale" type auction that sells maybe 2 cars/year. 10% commission, no tail, reserve allowed. From my experience more common cars often sell for more at those type auctions than anywhere else. Auctioneers like to include an antique car now and then because they tend to draw a crowd. Last car they sold was a really ratty T that sold for about twice what I thought it was worth.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

All of the comments above get right to the heart of the matter, so you should do the math. You see big numbers on TV, but you're seeing the cars they want you to see, usually during prime-time. You are not seeing the cars that sold for under-market (if it's a no-reserve auction) or didn't sell at all (reserve auction), and you're not seeing the cars that just died on the block. Many people come into my shop and ask why I don't just send all my cars to auction, since that seems to be the best way to get top dollar.

 

Well, yes and no. If you have a one-of-a-kind Ferrari or other rare car with a bulletproof pedigree, interesting history, and top-quality restoration, sure, it will bring a big dollar and break records.

All other cars sell for much, much less and usually less than market value. Remember that nobody goes to an auction to pay top dollar, they go looking for a bargain on a sleeper. I currently have an E-code 1957 Ford Retractable (one of 39 built) in my inventory that was purchased for far less than market value simply because the fellow who bought it spotted the dual quads on the engine and knew it was special, so he raised his limit accordingly. When it was on the block, there was only one other bidder who dropped out at a price roughly equal to a standard Retractable, somehow unaware that it was an E-code. My buyer got a screaming bargain and the seller probably cried himself to sleep that night. That kind of stuff happens dozens of times at every single auction.

 

Also remember that the prices reported in magazines usually include buyer AND seller fees (although the TV shows don't usually include the buyer's premium in the price shown). The seller only took home 80-85% of that figure, and he also paid to ship the car there, paid an entry fee, maybe paid for upgraded placement, and, well, suddenly the auction goldmine doesn't seem quite so amazing. People love to assume that auction buyers are idiots with more money than brains, but that's not true. Auctions don't somehow magically make people stupid and willing to over-pay. If you see a car sell for more than you think it should, either your gauge is off or there was something special about that car. Do not assume that the auction company will somehow find two rich idiots who want to fight over your car. You'll get guys looking to pay under market value.

 

I have sent many cars to auction and to be honest, auctions are where I send my turds--cars I don't want to put my name on. No test drive, no lift, just a car sitting there on the block. Perfect for dumping some trash. And there's A LOT of trash at auctions, even though they look great on TV. There are many people in the hobby, myself included, that believe that we've reached "peak auction" and all the truly great cars have already been sold. You can't keep stocking auctions with thousands of cars and have all of them be spectacular. The good ones have already changed hands and many collectors are dumping their second- and third-tier cars at this point. If you've ever been to one of Mecum's big bonanza week-long auctions with 5000 cars, you've probably noticed just how crappy the cars truly are. Row after row of wavy bodywork and grungy engines. There might be two or three dozen truly great ones, but the rest are just cannon fodder. Where will your car fit in? The trash runs early and late, prime time takes a special car and/or an extra payment.

 

If it's a good car, I can usually get as good or better results for my clients than an auction. I have an infinite amount of time to find them, I offer the confidence of test drives and inspections, and I'm going to stand behind the car. All of those things make buyers more comfortable with the buying process. A lot of people are buyers but they're just not comfortable in the fast-paced, don't stop and think, I've got butterflies in my stomach auction environment.

 

As a seller, you are going to be pressured from the first moment you sign the contract to lower your reserve. You can hold fast, but they'll remember that and won't work very hard to sell your car when it hits the block. They will tell you that your car isn't worth what you think it is (they're probably right). They will tell you that they'll give you better placement if you lower the reserve. They'll tell you that a lower reserve will attract more bidders and the final price will probably be higher. Are those things true? I don't know.

 

Also, most auctions will have a "tail" on their contracts. That means that they have exclusive rights to sell the car for, say, the next 90 or 120 days after the auction ends. They've promoted the car, they've invested in it, that's probably fair. But don't think that you'll be making a deal with someone afterwards and cutting the auction company out of it. They'll own 5-20% of your car for some time after the auction ends.

 

Finally, I just sold this 1955 Pontiac Chieftain Catalina three weeks ago for a price-guide-crushing $39,000. It was an AACA Senior car with what appeared to be about 6200 original miles (not a typo), so that kind of sets the very top of the market. It didn't take long to sell, but it was also an extraordinary car. I was honestly surprised that it went so quickly and for so much, and I bet I found the one guy willing to pay a big price for such a car. Is there another guy like that? No idea, but probably not because I haven't heard from him asking if this car is still available.

 

http://www.harwoodmotors.com/vehicles/inventory_details.php?id=607

 

Auctions can work, and if you like the idea, I'd encourage you to talk to the auction companies and see about their fee schedules and requirements. I would suggest that you do one closer to home to cut your overhead--the Indy auction is well-attended, as is Auburn, so I don't think you need Scottsdale to land a buyer. The guys with truly big money don't want your car anyway--sorry. You're hoping for an opportunity buyer, a guy with $30,000 in his pocket looking for a nice old car. You're hoping your car will talk to someone so he'll want to own it. But you won't find a dummy looking to show off to his friends on a 1955 Pontiac.

 

I think you can try to sell it yourself but it'll take time. Even with all my resources and experience, it is rare for a car to sell in less than 90 days. Guys run one Hemmings ad, get no response, and figure, "Well, the market is tanked, nobody has any money, my car won't sell." Or they get one phone call and figure that the car is sold and let off the throttle instead of pushing ahead with more advertising. I get between 45 and 50 inquiries before a car sells, on average. If I sold a car to every guy who said, "I'm interested in your car," I'd sell ten times more cars than I do. Tire-kickers outnumber buyers by at least 50:1. So if you go it alone, expect it to take time and expect to invest considerable money in advertising and marketing. One ad in Hemmings won't cut it these days.

 

God that's a lot of words. I hope it's helpful...

Matt, can you give us a idea of the age of the buyer for the 55 you sold? Thanks in advance.

[John348]

39 minutes ago, poci1957 said:

 

Yes, and I am still trying to decide if my 1950s Pontiac buyer is still shopping in Hemmings and club magazines, or are they online, or going to an auction.  I wouldn't have thought about Craigslist for a restored collector car, but I may be wrong about that.  I can say that I have been an active hobbyist for 35 years and have actually attended a national old car auction only a few times, and then only because there was a car show or swap meet attached.    

 A very good friend of mine just sold his 59 Impala last month through Hemming's. He got the number he wanted, I myself had thought was strong price for a small block car, but the car was real nice, real, real, real nice. It was done right, not over-restored, restored correct.

 The buyer's main concern was that it was a Grand National winner, and wanted proof. Which it was, and then the car was sold sight unseen. He did sit on it for about two years before the right guy came along, but bottom line was he sold it for the price he wanted

[poci1957]

33 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

As restorers we made the decision early on to avoid like the plague questions such as "what is my car worth?" and especially "what will my car be worth after it is restored?". We sell our services by the hour and leave it up to owners to decide whether their car is worth spending the money on. 

 

From my experience more common cars often sell for more at those type auctions than anywhere else. Auctioneers like to include an antique car now and then because they tend to draw a crowd. Last car they sold was a really ratty T that sold for about twice what I thought it was worth.

 

Good policy I am sure on the value question. 

 

I have also observed ratty cars go high at local sales.  Quite the reverse of the traditional hope of buying cheap in the hinterlands; now it seems the rube is the one with an inflated value stoked by the cable TV shows.  That is until his estate sale, as mentioned by Paul Dobbin above, Todd C  

[Matt Harwood]

22 minutes ago, helfen said:

Matt, can you give us a idea of the age of the buyer for the 55 you sold? Thanks in advance.

 

To be honest, I don't rightly know. He was certainly older than I am (46), but we had very little contact. He was one of those easy buyers who called, asked a few questions, and sent the money, all in the same day. That might seem odd to some of you, but it happens that way perhaps 30% of the time. "Is it a nice car? OK, here's the money." I bet I spent a grand total of less than two minutes on the phone with him, so I'm afraid I don't know much about his demographic. He was certainly an experienced buyer, he knew what he wanted and moved on it, but why this particular car talked to him, I can't say. It's still in the Midwest, so it may show up at events, and I got the impression that it's going into a collection, maybe not a huge one, but not a guy with one or two cars, either. He had enough money to pay cash, no financing.

 

I've learned that there are two kinds of buyers. The first is what I call the "specific" buyer. This guy wants something very specific and goes to find it. I don't know how many guys are looking for a 1955 Pontiac Chieftain hardtop specifically, but maybe a few. This type of buyer will spend a lot of time looking at a lot of cars, and buy the best one he can afford. Or maybe he wants a specific color. Whatever the case, he's looking for that car and has seen all the market has to offer. This is the kind of buyer that I was when I went looking for my 1941 Century. That's all I wanted, I wanted a project, I had a vague idea of how much I wanted to spend, and nothing else could tempt me. No Specials, no 1940s, no convertibles. No, I wanted a 1941 Buick Century sedanette.

 

The second kind of buyer is what I mentioned above, the "opportunity" buyer. This guy has a certain amount of money and doesn't know what he wants, so he looks at everything in his price range. This is the guy who walks up to you at a car show and is absolutely amazed by your car but knows nothing about it. It's the guy at an auction bidding on a wide variety of cars but winning none. It's the guy at a cruise-in who knows nothing about his car but says, "I got it from a guy up the street and thought, 'Eh, why not?'" This buyer is waiting for his gut to tell him, "This is the right car." What it is, is less important to him than the fact that it falls within his budget. This is the kind of buyer I was when I bought my 1929 Cadillac. I had $XXX to spend, and I wanted a Full Classic. Whether it was a Packard or a Lincoln or a Studebaker didn't really matter to me, but I wanted a Full Classic of some kind that I could enjoy right away.

 

The bottom line is that most buyers shop by price and price alone. You may occasionally find a guy like my buyer who is willing to pay a premium for quality, but my experience in selling about 500 cars in the past 5 years is that buyers will pay book value for a turd but they'll balk at paying 105% of book value for a perfect car. Buyers live by the book values and you'll never talk them off that perch, while sellers know book values are crap. At auctions, all rules are off, and if I were a betting man, I'd say that my Pontiac (or the subject car here) would probably bid to $18,000, at which point they'd be demanding that you drop the reserve and sell the car. That Pontiac is sadly not particularly exciting to most auction buyers and the opportunity buyer might not be attracted to it and the specific buyer might not be there unless the car was heavily promoted ahead of time. At $30,000, there are a lot of flashier choices with tops that go down. It's not that the Pontiac is over-priced, it's just that there's a much smaller pool of potential buyers at an auction and the chances of two of them being at the auction and willing to duke it out is less than if you use a mass-marketing campaign to reach ALL the potential buyers around the world and give yourself weeks or months to do it, rather than a few minutes at an auction.

[Restorer32]

There are deals to be had at auctions sometimes. We recently had a customer send a fully restored 1940s vehicle to auction. Not a dog either, a desirable car. Maybe not a 10 on the collectability scale but certainly a 7 or 8. Complete mechanical and cosmetic show restoration, less than 10 miles since completion. The car brought 1/4 the cost of the restoration. Luckily the owner was one of those few folks who could afford to indulge his hobby without much thought to money. He has owned well over 100 antique cars over the last 30 years and claims (and I fully believe him) to have only turned a profit on one car and that was by mistake. Buyer offered him more for the car than he was going to ask in the first place. As Matt alluded to, many cars at auction have already been flogged by dealers and didn't sell. At some point they cut their losses and send the cars to auction. Often they have special deals with the auction company because they are "frequent flyers". There are all sorts of folks in this hobby, part of what makes it so much fun.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

To be honest, I don't rightly know. He was certainly older than I am (46), but we had very little contact. He was one of those easy buyers who called, asked a few questions, and sent the money, all in the same day. That might seem odd to some of you, but it happens that way perhaps 30% of the time. "Is it a nice car? OK, here's the money." I bet I spent a grand total of less than two minutes on the phone with him, so I'm afraid I don't know much about his demographic. He was certainly an experienced buyer, he knew what he wanted and moved on it, but why this particular car talked to him, I can't say. It's still in the Midwest, so it may show up at events, and I got the impression that it's going into a collection, maybe not a huge one, but not a guy with one or two cars, either. He had enough money to pay cash, no financing.

 

I've learned that there are two kinds of buyers. The first is what I call the "specific" buyer. This guy wants something very specific and goes to find it. I don't know how many guys are looking for a 1955 Pontiac Chieftain hardtop specifically, but maybe a few. This type of buyer will spend a lot of time looking at a lot of cars, and buy the best one he can afford. Or maybe he wants a specific color. Whatever the case, he's looking for that car and has seen all the market has to offer. This is the kind of buyer that I was when I went looking for my 1941 Century. That's all I wanted, I wanted a project, I had a vague idea of how much I wanted to spend, and nothing else could tempt me. No Specials, no 1940s, no convertibles. No, I wanted a 1941 Buick Century sedanette.

 

The second kind of buyer is what I mentioned above, the "opportunity" buyer. This guy has a certain amount of money and doesn't know what he wants, so he looks at everything in his price range. This is the guy who walks up to you at a car show and is absolutely amazed by your car but knows nothing about it. It's the guy at an auction bidding on a wide variety of cars but winning none. It's the guy at a cruise-in who knows nothing about his car but says, "I got it from a guy up the street and thought, 'Eh, why not?'" This buyer is waiting for his gut to tell him, "This is the right car." What it is, is less important to him than the fact that it falls within his budget. This is the kind of buyer I was when I bought my 1929 Cadillac. I had $XXX to spend, and I wanted a Full Classic. Whether it was a Packard or a Lincoln or a Studebaker didn't really matter to me, but I wanted a Full Classic of some kind that I could enjoy right away.

 

The bottom line is that most buyers shop by price and price alone. You may occasionally find a guy like my buyer who is willing to pay a premium for quality, but my experience in selling about 500 cars in the past 5 years is that buyers will pay book value for a turd but they'll balk at paying 105% of book value for a perfect car. Buyers live by the book values and you'll never talk them off that perch, while sellers know book values are crap. At auctions, all rules are off, and if I were a betting man, I'd say that my Pontiac (or the subject car here) would probably bid to $18,000, at which point they'd be demanding that you drop the reserve and sell the car. That Pontiac is sadly not particularly exciting to most auction buyers and the opportunity buyer might not be attracted to it and the specific buyer might not be there unless the car was heavily promoted ahead of time. At $30,000, there are a lot of flashier choices with tops that go down. It's not that the Pontiac is over-priced, it's just that there's a much smaller pool of potential buyers at an auction and the chances of two of them being at the auction and willing to duke it out is less than if you use a mass-marketing campaign to reach ALL the potential buyers around the world and give yourself weeks or months to do it, rather than a few minutes at an auction.

Thanks Matt for your expertise, I'm sure all of us can use the information you provided. 

[trimacar]

Matt, I have another question about the Pontiac.  You state it was an AACA Senior car.  Was it restored, or in original condition, to take the award?

 

My personal belief is that a 6200 mile original car, restored, is not an original 6200 mile car.

 

Also, to your point, it's tough being a seller.  I have a '67 Lincoln convertible offered for sale, straight and rust free, mostly restored, not a show winner but a super driver.  I have it advertised at 15K but will negotiate.  I've had a few people now, who've called me, a couple of them numerous times, asking question after question, saying oh man I'm going to make an offer on the car, let me think on it overnight.....and you never hear from them again.  I don't care if I sell it, and don't care if they buy it, but sure would be a nice display of courtesy if, after I've answered question after question and even taken pictures of specific things on car, they would at least call one more time and say no thanks.  It doesn't help that the market on 60's Lincoln Continentals is all over the place, sure you can buy one for $5000, rusty and nothing working....or $40,000 much much nicer....there seems to be no rhyme nor reason to some of the pricing.

 

It's a car I'd have you take to sell, but it still needs a top put on and a few other things fixed, not your kind of car to market...

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

Matt, I have another question about the Pontiac.  You state it was an AACA Senior car.  Was it restored, or in original condition, to take the award?

 

My personal belief is that a 6200 mile original car, restored, is not an original 6200 mile car.

 

Also, to your point, it's tough being a seller.  I have a '67 Lincoln convertible offered for sale, straight and rust free, mostly restored, not a show winner but a super driver.  I have it advertised at 15K but will negotiate.  I've had a few people now, who've called me, a couple of them numerous times, asking question after question, saying oh man I'm going to make an offer on the car, let me think on it overnight.....and you never hear from them again.  I don't care if I sell it, and don't care if they buy it, but sure would be a nice display of courtesy if, after I've answered question after question and even taken pictures of specific things on car, they would at least call one more time and say no thanks.  It doesn't help that the market on 60's Lincoln Continentals is all over the place, sure you can buy one for $5000, rusty and nothing working....or $40,000 much much nicer....there seems to be no rhyme nor reason to some of the pricing.

 

It's a car I'd have you take to sell, but it still needs a top put on and a few other things fixed, not your kind of car to market...

 

That Pontiac was somewhere in between restored and original. I don't doubt the mileage because all the wear parts in the interior are unquestionably original and I've driven enough original cars to know one that hasn't been apart. The story is that the car was last on the road in 1965, which is confirmed by registration documents that accompany the car. The fellow I got it from found it in a body shop where it had been since 1965--it was the body shop owner's father's uncle's car and he asked his nephew to repaint it back in 1965. The body shop owner had sanded and smoothed the bodywork and pulled all the trim, but never finished the job. Months became years became decades and when both the uncle and his father passed away, the body shop owner inherited the shop and decided to sell the car. A friend of my client found it and referred him to it and he bought it. That's a long story to say simply that it was off the road for 45 years.

 

Obviously it was too far gone to be a true survivor, so he did a show-quality paint job and had all the trim restored, which, luckily, was all in the car, right down to those little trim pieces under the taillights. He pulled the engine and had it detailed but didn't take it apart aside from a carburetor rebuild and a new fuel pump. They also installed new valve cover and oil pan gaskets, then reinstalled the engine. The chassis was pressure washed, but nothing else was needed. The interior was also given a deep clean but nothing was replaced or restored--you'll note the steering wheel is greenish, which is how he got the car and how he decided to keep it since he figured that's how it came.

 

So it wasn't a survivor, but the rest of the car was so nice that it was able to compete on equal footing with fully restored cars. It won its AACA Senior at the Diamond Jubilee meet in Louisville, KY in 2010 and can be seen on page 73 of the September/October 2010 issue of "The Antique Automobile." It can also be seen in the classifieds of the latest issue of the AACA magazine, because the owner placed the ad, then decided to send it to me. I enjoyed driving it, although obviously I didn't want to drive it very much--I might have put about 10 miles on it while it was with me. As I said, it drove like a brand new car--no rattles, no creaks, every joint felt like it was lined with silk. No restored car ever feels this good, no matter how good your shop is. A really nice car. Not my thing, but I can understand why other people would love them.

 

PS: I know what you mean. I spend 98% of my time not selling cars. Welcome to my world...

[trimacar]

Yes, that's a fortunate blend of originality and restoration.  And, according to your description (and your descriptions are always eloquent and excellent), the low mileage is a valid selling feature of the car.

 

I've seen cars advertised as "fully restored, engine rebuilt, original 20,000 mile car" or the like, which doesn't make sense...once you rebuild a major driveline component the mileage indicated is meaningless.

 

Selling cars is always interesting, and it's easy to get discouraged.  You have to have patience, and it's always best if there's no specific pressure on you to sell a car, and you can wait until the right guy comes along as you did with the Pontiac.  I had a '63

Corvette split window at Hershey last year, older so-so restoration, but complete solid matching numbers and all that stuff, excellent driver.  For two days sat at car and heard people tell me my price was too high, car wasn't worth it, you know the tune.  Afternoon of the second day, guy comes up, asks if he can really look over the car, open doors, crawl in and under, so forth.  Sure, and he does.  Talks to his wife for a few minutes, walks over and makes an offer very close to my asking price, sold.....

 

You just never know when that buyer is going to appear!

[4Hud]

The  farm / acreage auctions often get high dollar amounts from the locals, perhaps lacking old car knowledge and get caught up in the auction excitement.

[Dandy Dave]

43 minutes ago, 4Hud said:

The  farm / acreage auctions often get high dollar amounts from the locals, perhaps lacking old car knowledge and get caught up in the auction excitement.

 

I resemble that remark.. There is an Auction in my future. I sur nuf hope the bidders are there to run up the items that I have. Dandy Dave!