Intermittent turn signal indication at dashboard

[Turbinator]

5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  When you place the turn signal lever in the left or right position do any of the turn signal bulbs (NOT the taillights, turn OFF the taillights) light up? If not, you must determine why...are each of the bulbs getting voltage in each signal switch position? If no voltage this could be a switch problem or wiring, to fix, voltage can be applied to each circuit at the turn signal switch end. If no light, is the problem the bulb? If not, is the problem the contacts in the socket or a bad ground?

 

Before you condemn the flasher ALL bulbs (front and rear) which are associated with the left or right signal position must light and be drawing power. It is this load thru the circuit which determines if the flasher will cycle. If you have a front signal and not a rear signal (or vice versa) this problem must be fixed before you move on or condemn the flasher.

 

To "adjust" the turn signal switch proceed as follows:

  Put the tilt wheel in the position which you will be using it the most (for most people this is one position)

  Loosen the mounting bolts at the turn signal switch. While depressing the brake pedal, observe the rear brake lights and move the position of the switch until both left and right brake lights illuminate (this is assuming both the left and right brake/turn signal circuits and bulbs are functional). Now, the turn signal switch should be in a neutral position and you should be able to obtain both left and right turn signal switch positions.

 

Tom

 

Tom, Thank you again for your support.  How you explained the steps to take and why the steps are to be taken in order was most helpful.

My tail lights AND headlights AND cornering lights were working before I tried the flasher relay.  Since all lights were lit I went ahead splurged on $12.95 flasher and replaced the one what was in the fuse block. What do you know? A blind squirrel ( me ) found an acorn! The turn signals immediately worked.

In summary, 60FlatTop sent pics of how to ground the tail light bulb sockets to the car body. You, Konga Man, RivNut, Rodney, Jim Connor ( I hope  I didn't forget anyone ) chipped in to help solve a knotty problem of no tail lights and no turn signals. The lesson in grounding, using a circuit tester on the fuses in the fuse block, and taking suggestions now have The Red Riviera with turn signals  AND tail lights. Amazing.

Many Thanks,

Red Riviera Bob

Lutherville MD

[rodneybeauchamp]

Great news that they are all working ok.

 

My next suggestion which would be 100% foolproof would be to turn only to the right. That way you don't have to worry about the LHS not working,. Amazing what you come up with after a wine or two. Pleased that you sorted it???

[Turbinator]

Rodney, some say in this part of the country say, "A blind squirrel found an acorn"!

[Turbinator]

On 7/21/2017 at 10:17 AM, 1965rivgs said:

  When you place the turn signal lever in the left or right position do any of the turn signal bulbs (NOT the taillights, turn OFF the taillights) light up? If not, you must determine why...are each of the bulbs getting voltage in each signal switch position? If no voltage this could be a switch problem or wiring, to fix, voltage can be applied to each circuit at the turn signal switch end. If no light, is the problem the bulb? If not, is the problem the contacts in the socket or a bad ground?

 

Before you condemn the flasher ALL bulbs (front and rear) which are associated with the left or right signal position must light and be drawing power. It is this load thru the circuit which determines if the flasher will cycle. If you have a front signal and not a rear signal (or vice versa) this problem must be fixed before you move on or condemn the flasher.

 

To "adjust" the turn signal switch proceed as follows:

  Put the tilt wheel in the position which you will be using it the most (for most people this is one position)

  Loosen the mounting bolts at the turn signal switch. While depressing the brake pedal, observe the rear brake lights and move the position of the switch until both left and right brake lights illuminate (this is assuming both the left and right brake/turn signal circuits and bulbs are functional). Now, the turn signal switch should be in a neutral position and you should be able to obtain both left and right turn signal switch positions.

 

Tom

 

Tom, I have lights front and rear on the car. I have turn signals front and rear. I have turn signals front with the lights on. I have NO turn signals in the Rear with the lights on. I have changed tail light sockets to all metal and grounded the bulb socket to the car trunk latch.

i have grounded the engine to car frame with a bolt in the frame. I grounded the battery. I checked and replaced fuses for the turn signal and tail lights. My only guess is more electric power needs to get to the rear bulb to make the filament blink on and off. Without fear of being a pest do you any suggestions for items I can recheck to get the bulb to blink?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Red Riviera Bob
Forgot to include... (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

Additionally, I removed the turn signal switch cleaned with contact cleaner and reinstalled so the signal blinks.

[Turbinator]

Lessons learned from an inexperienced do it yourself'er on trouble shooting tail lights and turn signals on a 63Buick Riviera.

1. Listen and follow instructions from the guys on the forum. Use the 1963 Buick Shop manual for the Chassis and Body for picture diagrams and support.

2. Make sure all your connections are clean, strong, and protected from moisture. Check and recheck the connections for strength. Don't be afraid to give the connections a tug.

3. Make sure the connections are not prone to shorting the circuit.

4.Use metal tail light bulb sockets and ground the bulb socket with solder and bolt the ground to the car frame.

5. Make sure your turn signal switch Actuator is functioning properly by adjustments made on the mast/steering column. You can take it off and clean contact cleaner, but be prepared for a tedious task.

6. Check to make sure your engine is grounded to the frame. Check your fuses with a circuit tester. Replace fuses as required.

7. Ground the negative battery terminal properly.

8. When soldering the ground wire to the metal bulb socket fan out the copper strands to make the solder hold better. Insulate the soldered ground with liquid tape or whatever you have.

9. Use butt connectors and application specific crimpers and shrink on every connection. ( no wire nuts or friction tape)

10. Use loom to clean up your harness when the job is complete. There are better fitting metal bulb sockets than others. ( I've tried more manufacturers than I want to admit ) the socket in the pic is the kind I had best fit.

11. Make sure all those on the forum that walked you through to a successful job know you appreciate their help.

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Tom, I have lights front and rear on the car. I have turn signals front and rear. I have turn signals front with the lights on. I have NO turn signals in the Rear with the lights on. I have changed tail light sockets to all metal and grounded the bulb socket to the car trunk latch.

i have grounded the engine to car frame with a bolt in the frame. I grounded the battery. I checked and replaced fuses for the turn signal and tail lights. My only guess is more electric power needs to get to the rear bulb to make the filament blink on and off. Without fear of being a pest do you any suggestions for items I can recheck to get the bulb to blink?

Hi Bob,

  Do you have rear brake lights with the headlights on? Probably not....

  Both filaments in the rear bulbs are sharing the same path to ground. Generally, when one filament, in this case the brake/turn filament, is affected by operation of another filament, in this case the tailight filament, there is a problem with the available ground because both filaments are "competing" for the same ground. So, in this example, because the tailight filament is "using" the available ground there is not enough ground left for the brake/turn filament to light.

Your tailight sockets are grounded to the BODY. You do not describe a good body ground? The factory used braided ground straps between the engine head bolts and the firewall. Often these are missing due to sloppy assembly of engine work or need to be cleaned due to engine paint, etc...do you have a good body ground? Although there are many unintended ground paths like accelerator linkage, etc the body is mounted with rubber insulators which can isolate the body from battery ground.

Now that you are familiar with the use of a test light you should check to see if you have turn signal voltage at the socket assemblies. If so...

You could try running a temporary ground directly from the neg battery post to one of your taillight sockets to be absolutely sure you have adequate ground at the sockets to fire the brake/turn filament.

  Tom

PS The above is assuming one or both of the sockets has been wired properly. When folks start snippin` and splicin` anything is possible!

Edited August 10, 2017 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[EmTee]

The sockets are grounded to the tail light housing and the battery is grounded to the body, but -- is the tail light housing grounded to the body?  Usually there are gaskets between the housings and the sheetmetal and the hollow backs of the pressed steel 'speed nuts' that hold the housings to the car are filled with dum-dum.  Adding ground wires between the housings and the body with good, shiny contact patches will fix it if this is the issue.

[Turbinator]

Gents, now that I have the tail lights working and turn signals working as they should I need to confess that I DID NOT KNOW the bulb socket needs to be wired correctly. My assumption was the drive ( wire carrying the juice ) was NOT needed to light up the stronger of the two filaments. In other words I wired the bulb socket wrong. Lesson learned is don't assume too much when you are feeling your way through something you do not know very well. I've learned some things from the guys on the forum. 

Thanks to all, again

RRB ( Red Riviera Bob)

[Turbinator]

22 minutes ago, EmTee said:

The sockets are grounded to the tail light housing and the battery is grounded to the body, but -- is the tail light housing grounded to the body?  Usually there are gaskets between the housings and the sheetmetal and the hollow backs of the pressed steel 'speed nuts' that hold the housings to the car are filled with dum-dum.  Adding ground wires between the housings and the body with good, shiny contact patches will fix it if this is the issue.

I moved my bulb socket ground from the tail light housing to the trunk latch. I shined up the metal under the bolt head and tightened up.

[rodneybeauchamp]

Bob,

 

Well done. Glad you perservered and fixed it.

 

Classic Car Wiring does a 63 Riviera laminated coloured wiring diagram that is large and easier to follow that the OEM manual. I have used mine a few times to help determine what goes where and consider it a good investment.

 

cheers

Rodney

[Turbinator]

Rodney, you and I are working on the same vacuum system project at the same time. I have a63. 

I have a pro mechanic heading up the project in my carriage house ( I describe my new garage as the carriage house because local government told I had to build at least 200 feet away from my back door)

i will keep you apprised of the development and pictures. We intend to check for vacuum leaks. All new color coded vacuum hoses as well as a vacuum reservoir with check valve have been purchased. I'm waiting for the new replacement vacuum actuator to come via small parcel delivery. In the mean time I'm tracking diagrams I'll post. 

RedRivieraBob (RRB)

the pics will come in another post.

[Turbinator]

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1963/PreliminaryServiceInfo/pages/buickprelimsvc_036_jpg.htm

 

Link for vacuum hook up for 63 Riv

Edited August 11, 2017 by Red Riviera Bob
Explanation of diagram (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

Link for vacuum hook up on 63 Rivhttp://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1963/PreliminaryServiceInfo/pages/buickprelimsvc_041_jpg.htm

[Turbinator]

Link for vacuum hook up on 63 riviera

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1963/PreliminaryServiceInfo/pages/buickprelimsvc_041_jpg.htm

[Turbinator]

On 8/10/2017 at 6:20 PM, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Bob,

  Do you have rear brake lights with the headlights on? Probably not....

  Both filaments in the rear bulbs are sharing the same path to ground. Generally, when one filament, in this case the brake/turn filament, is affected by operation of another filament, in this case the tailight filament, there is a problem with the available ground because both filaments are "competing" for the same ground. So, in this example, because the tailight filament is "using" the available ground there is not enough ground left for the brake/turn filament to light.

Your tailight sockets are grounded to the BODY. You do not describe a good body ground? The factory used braided ground straps between the engine head bolts and the firewall. Often these are missing due to sloppy assembly of engine work or need to be cleaned due to engine paint, etc...do you have a good body ground? Although there are many unintended ground paths like accelerator linkage, etc the body is mounted with rubber insulators which can isolate the body from battery ground.

Now that you are familiar with the use of a test light you should check to see if you have turn signal voltage at the socket assemblies. If so...

You could try running a temporary ground directly from the neg battery post to one of your taillight sockets to be absolutely sure you have adequate ground at the sockets to fire the brake/turn filament.

  Tom

PS The above is assuming one or both of the sockets has been wired properly. When folks start snippin` and splicin` anything is possible!

Tom, again-you hit the nail on the head " assuming one or both ( of the sockets ) are wired properly. "That was my failure. I did not know how to wire the sockets. My ASSUMPTION , was baseless, the wiring of the socket was inconsequential.  I finally made the correction on your note as well as a reminder from 60FlatTop to make sure the sockets were wired right. I felt foolish when I learned my mistake. I knew the answer was a simple answer, but the answer would be tedious. We prevailed. The lights work. Again, many thanks.

[60FlatTop]

Concept and details, they need to come together for success. I have a little problem this week. The yellow wire broke off my Riviera alternator pug on Tuesday. I have extra spade terminals with the clip back. I have the terminal removal tool and a pair of pliers just right for folding the tabs over the insulation and the wire to install the new terminal. My right hand works fine for the pliers. My thumb and first two fingers of my left hand won't hold the wire and small parts together so I can attach the terminal. Now that's a ten minute job I have been farting around with since Tuesday. I'm heading back out there in a few minutes. If I don't get it this time the neighborhood feral cats are in big trouble.

I will prevail.

 

Bernie

[Turbinator]

Persistence and resilience will take you all the way. Sometimes I make a tool to hold objects when I'm working by myself. I'm not familiar with the chore. I'm going to the carriage house to see if I can replicate your task.

[Turbinator]

If you have AC you have to monkey around the compressor and added brackets. I was going to suggest you use the little finger and ring finger on your left hand to manipulate. ( guitarist use all their fingers pretty good, but not on car repairs). I always look to a friendly neighbor or any friend, spouse, nephew, whomever to help when I've over done it already.

self reliance is great, but sometimes we need to ask for help.

RRB

[Turbinator]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:38 PM, KongaMan said:

WD-40 is not a fix.  For anything.

Mr Konga Man, in the 60's I was told WD 40 was good for freeing up rusty nuts and bolts. 50 years later I learn I was wrong. Now I use  PB blaster to free up rusty nuts and bolts. If, worse comes to worse I use my Torch cart to get er done. ( I use the torch as safe as possible). WD 40 is good for lubricating and mosquito bites.

RRB

[RivNut]

WD40. The 40th attempt to develop a Water Displacement material.

Edited August 19, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)