'39 CHRYSLER Royal, Help please Re horny subject.

[trickydicky43richard]

HELP, Can anyone please provide a clear assembly schematic for the plates/spring/parts etc in the steering wheel hub for the Horn.

My repro manual picture is too dark to decipher, hoping you all can help,

Richard in OZ

 

[trickydicky43richard]

Ok, so I'll reply to myself to refresh, I have tried a few things but no success. Also I cant figure the electrical circuit? Is the steering column supposed to be electrically insulated from the body.

The horns and relay work all ok it's just the hub horn parts and wiring I cant figure to get operating correctly.

R

[Guest]

The horn button completes the circuit.    Battery. .horn.. wire up steering column..  contacts under steering wheel  and grounded through the steering column when the button is pressed.

[John348]

Hey Rich,

I am not a Chrysler guy, a Chevy guy, and a retired commercial electrician so I will give this a go. What is going on in the steering column: The wire in the column is the ground/earth or return part of the horn relay circuit. The plate that the wire is connected to is insulated from making contact to any other metal until it is depressed, by the horn button or ring. Once pressure is applied the metal will make contact with the rest of the metal in the column completing the circuit, closing the relay and supplying power to the horn(s)

I am not really 100% sure of what information you are seeking, If you need to know how the parts go together in the column I think I can find that out for you. My friend has a 39 Chrysler and I know he has a shop manual somewhere. I have to see him one day this week. I will look at the car and try to see if I get some photo's for you 

[trickydicky43richard]

G'Day John,

YES,There is a wire up the middle of the column which connects to a 3 winged brass piece, which screws to insulated bosses in wheel. 

Under this brass "contact" there is a spring  (about 1 3/4"Dia). Now my problem is as soon as I try to place 3 winged plate on top of spring ( Which fits into a large "Contact" washer under the steering wheel nut the horn blows.??

This will be clear as mud.... So in explanation,.. If the 3 wing plate (connected to the centre wire) is in turn placed on top of the spring which in turn is located by a large locating washer under the steering wheel nut then the circuit is straight away competed

( that seems weird) and  I assume why the horn blows immediately) ???  What am I doing wrong??

Rich

[hwellens]

Here is a picture from a 38 Dodge Shop Manual. See it this helps:

 

[Dandy Dave]

Something is not insulated. The center button should only be grounding out when it is depressed. Make sure the wire that goes though the steering post is not bare and shorting. Including on the bottom end of things. (Or would that be the top side from where we are sitting? As you are the man from the land down under. Maybe that's the problem, you have it together up side down.)  Dandy Dave!   

Edited May 19, 2016 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Guest]

Can you post the description of 1 to 9 from the book of words.  I am like John348 (not a Chrysler person) but have had dozens of horn contacts apart.  They are all similar so one of the items, perhaps #4 must keep the wire insulated from #5 and #9 until the button is pushed.  It looks straightforward from the diagram unless there is another problem.  A lot can change in 77 years.  Good luck.

[John348]

The wire going down the column could be bad after 77 years. You have to test the wire for continuity to ground with it disconnected from the relay. The wire should zero continuity, if it does unplug it from any connections at the column and test it again, if it does the wire in the column could be bad. One conductor DC systems can be very tricky because everyone forgets the "other wire" or the "earth" as it is called in some parts of the world is the metal componants of the vehicle itself. That wire should be clear from steering wheel to the relay, if not then you have to find the brake in the insulation.

Do not remove the wire from the column if it is bad. use that wire to pull a new one in, tape your new wire to it and pull it out then, this way the new wire will be snaked through the column

[atlbluz]

If the wire is bad(shorting out) but you need to use the special contact at the top you can purchase for less than 5.00 a piece of electrical shrink tubing that you can slide up the wire and over the lower contact when you have it in position just heat each end with a heat  gun to hold it in place.

[hwellens]

8 hours ago, Tinindian said:

Can you post the description of 1 to 9 from the book of words.  I am like John348 (not a Chrysler person) but have had dozens of horn contacts apart.  They are all similar so one of the items, perhaps #4 must keep the wire insulated from #5 and #9 until the button is pushed.  It looks straightforward from the diagram unless there is another problem.  A lot can change in 77 years.  Good luck.

See attached:

 

IMG_20160519_0003.pdf

[Guest]

If number 4 is not damaged your problem must be in the wire going down the column.  Provide of course everything is assembled according to the diagram.

The current comes up the cable to the horn button cable contact #3 (it is insulated from the column by #4).  When you press the horn button #1 the circuit is completed and the current goes through #2, #1, #5 and #9 to ground.  Remember that the horn will blow as you depress the button and turn it into place.  As soon as you let it up (locked into place0 the horn should stop and only blow when the button is pressed.

[Ltc4748]

If you did not get it  to work yet I would take the horn switch apart and with the wire end disconnected or the grounding part of the switch isolated away from any grounded contact the horn should not blow, if it does follow the circuit back to the relay and disconnect it there and see if it still blows. 

 

If you don't want to hear the loud horn while testing it disconnect the horn itself before you start and temporarily connect a headlamp into the circuit so it lights and shine it so it can be seen while you are working at the switch or other area's. Be sure to keep the live contacts / connections on the back of the bulb insulated with electrical or duct  tape since it will be a live circuit. Once you get the light to turn on when pushing the horn button and go off when released you can reconnect your horn and it will work. 

[mrspeedyt]

you could stuff a rag into the horn itself to greatly reduce the volume while you fix things.

[trickydicky43richard]

Hi Everyone ,

Thanks for your input so far, please keep in mind this Chrysler model does not have a simple horn button but a "Blowing" ring.

The way the horn contact/spring, electrical parts etc are depicted in the Workshop Manual, these would

naturally be shorting out.

If any of the readers have a '39 Chrysler manual please see if I am not right.

In frustration I have now invited a local Auto Electrician wizz to come visit ($90 Call out Fee) and see if he can figure the correct assembly and or problem, I will keep you posted after he has been,

Thanks,

R 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by trickydicky43richard
grammer (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Ohh Lawdy, If the Swim was not so far.  That's enough to pay just to find out you have a spring out of place or something similar.  And for that price, He better find it, or at least be able to tell you what you are lacking to fix it.  Dandy Dave! 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Digger914]

All the shop manuals, line drawings and wiring diagrams in the world can't replace the experienced eye and when you can't see what's wrong someone who looks at this kind of thing all day long usually can. If the bloke who shows up is an electrical whizz and a gentleman, he will have your problem spotted in the first few minutes and he will spend some time looking at the rest of the wiring to make sure you feel like you got your moneys worth.

 

$90 is $90 and it really doesn't matter that the down under Aussie dollar is .7 something of the US dollar, when $90 comes out of your pocket it may only be $65 US, but it's still $90 out of your pocket and sometimes it's worth spending the money. I put  the exchange rate in for the Yanks on my side of the pond, as spending $65 sound so much better than spending $90.

[Dandy Dave]

Point taken Digger914. I'm usually on the receiving end, not the cough it up end.  Dandy Dave! 

[trickydicky43richard]

An Update, My well regarded (and expensive) Auto Electrician has been and after 2 hours couldn't figure out the problem either.

He does agree if you follow the workshop manual assembly pic (page 54) then it will be continually short circuited.

He has gone back to his workshop to ponder the solution.

He has asked if any one can provide a clear exploded view of the Horn Ring, contacts hub assy etc?

Back soon.

R

Edited June 3, 2016 by trickydicky43richard
better info (see edit history)

[Guest]

#4 is the piece that insulates it. 

[capngrog]

Richard;

 

Do you have a shop manual for the 1939 Plymouth?  If not, here is a link to one available for viewing on line:  http://www.pwchryslerclub.org/PlymouthManual_OCR.pdf   See Figure 3, "Horn Blowing Ring Disassembled", on page 182.  The illustrations aren't as clear as I would like; however, it does show you how the parts are "stacked" together.   See page 181, Section 4, "Removal of Horn Button (With Blowing Ring), 1939-42, for information on how to disassemble the horn apparatus of the steering wheel.

 

Of course I wasn't there for your horn apparatus diagnostic session with the "Auto Electrician wiz", but assuming that the appropriate manuals were available,  I'm somewhat puzzled by his/her inability to diagnose your horn problem.  Personally, I would ask for my $90 back.  Sheesh, it only involves one wire!

 

Good luck,

Grog

[39D11]

Hi Richard,

I assume you sorted out the problem with the horn on your Chrysler Royal. Hopefully at no cost!.

I am keen to know how you solved it because I have the same problem assembling the horn on my 1939 D11 Dodge.

The workshop exploded diagrams fail to explain how the contact is made which sounds the horn.

I live just north of Sydney but with Covid closing the NSW/QLD border I cannot call in person.

Thanks.

39D11

[padgett]

OK looks like 3 is the button, 4 is the wire to the horn and  5 is the ground contact (5-6-7-9). 9 is grounded under the nut. Steering column nut (8) should be a hard ground. When 3 makes contact with 4 the horn should blow. I usually replace the device (horn) with a bright LED light for troubleshooting

 

Just got through fitting a Reatta wheel to an Allante and the horn power lead is through the big spring between the wheel and two pads on the column. And everything is held togeter with 30 year old GM plastic tabs Insulator is NLA so modified one for a Corvette. Have to be very, very, careful on blind assembly to have the big (2" diameter) spring touch the pads and nothing else conductive.

 

Chrysler looks pretty simple to me unless the wire through the center is rubbing on something.Note that the wire (4) appears to be twisting with the wheel (not great for longetivity).

[trickydicky43richard]

Hello Newbie, i have still not figured it out, neither could two Auto Electricians, my 39 Chrysler has a Horn Ring not a button like the Dodges. It is so frustrating and stressfull not being able to figure the problem out so I have stepped back till i get my patience back, Richard

[39D11]

Hi again Richard,

Firstly, many thanks for responding to my post.

I have spent a couple of hours with a nearby neighbour. His experience is manly with modern autos but we tried a few options with the horn system.

He made a suggestion which I was 100% sure would not work but  I agreed to try his idea.  I am pleased that I did not over-rule him or put money on.

To my relief the horn works as it should.

  On my 1939 D11 Dodge Luxury Liner  (to give it it's full title) the horn -steering wheel set up is much like what is illustrated in models of the late 30's early 40's in the FIGURES attached .  The main difference between these and my 1939 set up is that the horn ring is held to the steering wheel by 3 bolts (not easy to insert as they are screwed from the dash side of the wheel).

SO the order  of the parts as we assembled bits was as follows -

- place the steering wheel (6 in FIG 3) onto column

- place the washer (8)  of about 2 inch diameter with raised edges  which keep the spring in place onto end of column

- put the nut  (7) on to hold the steering wheel secure.

- Insert the contact wire (12) with 3-pronged contact plate (11) down the column and join to the  horn. I disconnected the battery  until testing was wise.

- fix the 3-pronged contact plate (11) to the steering wheel  using the 3 screws (4) - mine were  7/64 " by about 5/8" (8-10 mm) long with 40 pitch thread. A bolts and bearings shop in Gosford supplied one to replace one that I lost.

- wind the spring (5) past the 3-pronged contact plate until it is neatly between the 2" washer and the 3-pronged contact plate.  Inserting  the spring at  this stage is easier, faster and less likely to lead to damage to the  7/64' bolts.

- rotate the spring so that the end of the spring is under one of the 3 arms of the contact plate.

- sit the horn blowing  ring  (3) onto the spring and and over the 3 prongs of the contact plate and secure with the blowing ring retaining ornament (2).

 

You have probably done all this several times.   We did not get this right the first few times either,.

 

What made the difference for us was that we removed the 1/2"  x 1" insulating? plastic pieces which I believed should go under the ends of the arms of the 3 prongs of the contact plate. As I said this was not my idea. These are shown in the image IMG-5699 attached.. They look black but were a deep sky blue.

What we seemed to change was the small gap between the spring and the contact plate.

With the plastic pieces the horn blew all the time.

Without the plastic pieces the horn worked as it should. I.e there is a fine line between success and failure.

HOW DOES IT WORK

As I see it when no horn is needed the horn blowing ring (3) keeps pressure on the spring (5)  so the spring does not contact the blowing ring contact plate (11).

A small movement of the horn blowing ring is enough to allow contact between the spring and the contact plate to complete the circuit.

The tolerance is very small.

When assembled the blowing ring retaining ornament (2)   was flush with the steering wheel and the blowing ring  cleared the arms of the steering wheel by only about 1/8" (4 mm).

 

I hope this message is of some use.

 

Best wishes

Graeme

 

 

 

 

[trickydicky43richard]

Thanks Graeme, Mind boggling on first read, I will take time later to read it thoroughly. Was the bolt shop in Manns Rd, I used to work there,Richard

[39D11]

Hi Richard,

I am at North Avoca and the small bolts for the contact plate came from 

Gosford Bolts & Bearings    3/ 24-28 Glennie Street West, Gosford NSW 2250. Near the Show grounds.

When you digest my previous message I am happy to talk with you by mobile.

All the best,

Graeme