'67 430 Timing Chain Question

[PWB]

 

Warm weather brings work on our classics!

Question:

Any concerns on first year 430 timing chains I should be aware of? Like nylon issues?

Thanks all!

 

 

[RoadShark]

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?119739-Timing-chain-430ci&highlight=chain

[JZRIV]

Original cam gears had over molded nylon teeth. The plastic  degrades with time and miles, stress crack, and eventually break off in pieces and end up in the oil pan. This generally doesn't cause a short term problem other than lost performance and efficiency so often most people wouldn't even know if the teeth fell off or not. There are many variables that affect longevity of the teeth. I've taken engines apart that had most of the teeth gone and others that were still intact and this includes engines taken apart 30 years ago and more recently. When the teeth break off it causes slop in the timing chain. You can tell if you have slop by removing the distributor cap, put a socket on the crank, rotate engine one direction a short distance then rotate the opposite direction and watch the rotor for movement at time of changing directions. It should move immediately when you change directions. If the engine rotates but no rotor movement you have slop in the chain.

Attached is a pic of a Buick cam gear. Its not for a 430 but shows the same design with plastic coated teeth. The plastic was used to reduce chain noise.

 

 

 

 

[Seafoam65]

                           Jason, seeing that picture makes me get angry all over again.....the plastic timing gear teeth was the dumbest

thing ever put on a car ever.  If I had been president of GM I would have fired the engineer that even suggested such an idiot

part to be installed on their cars. These timing gear setups would always jump time when you shut the engine off, as the engine would

suddenly stop and the chain would keep on going. On two  separate occasions in my repair shop back in the 70's, I pulled a car in

to the bay for minor service like an oil change, then it wouldn't ever start back up because the chain jumped. Of course, then I had to

call the customer and try to explain to him that I had to do a timing chain job on his car when he brought it in for an oil change.  Both times the customers didn't know anything about cars and refused to believe that I was not at fault. After it happened to me the second time, I was actually afraid to shut off a 60's GM car to work on it. I actually started warning the customers when they brought the car in that this could happen and I was not responsible and would not eat the repair.  Also, I defy anybody to hear a timing chain without

using a stethescope.....pure hogwash!  If anybody out there can hear a timing chain on a running engine

with the naked ear, call the CIA.....your services are needed for their spy network.

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[rodneybeauchamp]

I had similar  concerns over the nylon gear in my 63 Riviera having experienced a failure on a 64 Skylark with 300cu in .

 

Have just replaced the set in the 63 with 401 with Mellings timing gear all steel and Sealed Power crank gear and chain.  All fitted snugly and without any problems.

 

Just waiting on a new cover to arrive to complete the job. Will now have peace of mind and reliability, on a daily driver. 

Just my two bobs worth.

 

interesting to read Seafoams comment about switching them off, never to re-start.

 

My experience was after driving about 5500 miles in the Buick Skylark in 1990 over 4 weeks while in the US and Canada, and dropping it off to the shipper in Phileadelphia all ok. When I went to start it in Australia to take it home, it failed to start.

 

Hours and hours of of lost time, trailer to get it home, a new starter motor, heaps of frustration about why it would not go after being so reliable. Found that an aluminium rocker arm had broken and the nylon covering the timing gear teeth had disintegrated.

 

My thoughts until today  have been that the shipper had revved it out when cold when putting it in the container, however after reading this thread, see that it was probably Lady Luck that kept it going until it failed due to fatigue.

[EmTee]

I appreciate the method of assessing the amount of chain 'slop' by observing distributor rotor movement while turning the crank, but I believe that by the time an observable amount of lash can be seen the cam gear must have already shed some of it's nylon cladding.  So, if it's already that bad you'd better have the parts ordered and a day set aside to install the new timing set.  As JZRIV pointed out, there's no reliable rule-of thumb as to when failure may occur.  Back in the day, the 'rule' was best to think about changing it anytime after 60K miles.  Even back then some engines would go twice that long with no issue.  Now, 50 years later even a low-mile original engine should be serviced, in my opinion.

[PWB]

Oh my!

 

Didn't mean to rile anyone up. Its all great info. Thank you gentlemen for the years of experience. To this end, it does us all well.

I'm going to have a gears and chain on standby.

Now...who makes the best?

 

Much appreciated  - 

 

 

 

[EmTee]

Cloyes is a quality piece.  http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/cloyes-gear/part-type/timing-chain-and-gear-sets/make/buick/engine-size/7-0l-430/engine-family/buick-v8?N=400043%2B4294899544

 

Clevite and Sealed Power offer stock link-belt style replacements.  All of these use steel (no nylon) cam sprockets.

Edited April 16, 2016 by EmTee (see edit history)

[PWB]

On 4/15/2016 at 12:04 PM, Seafoam65 said:

                           Jason, seeing that picture makes me get angry all over again.....the plastic timing gear teeth was the dumbest

thing ever put on a car ever.  If I had been president of GM I would have fired the engineer that even suggested such an idiot

part to be installed on their cars. These timing gear setups would always jump time when you shut the engine off, as the engine would

suddenly stop and the chain would keep on going. On two  separate occasions in my repair shop back in the 70's, I pulled a car in

to the bay for minor service like an oil change, then it wouldn't ever start back up because the chain jumped. Of course, then I had to

call the customer and try to explain to him that I had to do a timing chain job on his car when he brought it in for an oil change.  Both times the customers didn't know anything about cars and refused to believe that I was not at fault. After it happened to me the second time, I was actually afraid to shut off a 60's GM car to work on it. I actually started warning the customers when they brought the car in that this could happen and I was not responsible and would not eat the repair.  Also, I defy anybody to hear a timing chain without

using a stethescope.....pure hogwash!  If anybody out there can hear a timing chain on a running engine

with the naked ear, call the CIA.....your services are needed for their spy network.

 

Well I’m guessing it’s happened to me.

All of the sudden my car is having a terrible time trying to start.

I swapped the gasoline, fuel hoses and carb. Borescoped the fuel tank and not a spec of dirt.

All the electrics seem ok. Replaced  

coil, points and alternator anyway.
I get good spark and plenty fuel pressure.

The motor turns with no clankity weird noises when I disconnect coil. Spark plugs look new.

I never ever loosened the distributor and assume it never was. Vacuum advance works fine.

I could only guess the chain has jumped?

 

ugh 😩 

 

[kegart]

You can bring the timing mark on the balancer to the 0 degrees then take distributor cap off and look to see if the rotor is pointing to #1.

 

Kevin 

[PWB]

1 hour ago, kegart said:

You can bring the timing mark on the balancer to the 0 degrees then take distributor cap off and look to see if the rotor is pointing to #1.

 

Kevin 

Oh ok

You mean pull the whole distributor?

That may be easier than pulling all the plugs, manually cranking and trying to find 1TDC. I don’t have a second mechanic to help.

I have a good borescope. What do I look for exactly inside?

Thanks

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by PWB (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

Go ahead and do the timing chain and gears.....assuming that's what it is, the more you screw around turning it over the more plastic teeth you are dumping into your oil pan.

[mobileparts]

PWB,

   And if you want N.O.S. U.S.A. made Timing Chain & STEEL Cam & Crank

Timing Gears, I should be able to help.....

 

    Always best to simply call me --- Craig --- 516  - 485 - 1935.... New York...

[EmTee]

On 7/23/2020 at 11:24 AM, PWB said:

ou mean pull the whole distributor?

 

No, just remove the cap and look at which terminal on the cap the distributor is pointing at.  It should be #1 or #6, if the #1 cylinder isn't at TDC.  If that's the case, turn the crank one more revolution and check the rotor position again.

[shuckett]

Hey Folks, I am stumped and hope that one of you may have an answer/solution for this peculiar problem. I am resurrecting a 1968 Buick 225 with a 430 V-8 for my uncle. It sat (but started regularly) in storage for nearly 20 years before I started work on it. At first it started and ran fine, but over time the engine ran rougher and rougher until one day it would not start. Upon thorough inspection, I found that there was no spark and that the rotor was not spinning with the engine. Digging deeper I found that the roll pin which secures the distributer timing gear to the distributer shaft had sheared off, leaving the gear to float. The distributer gears look fine and the timing chain/gears are spinning when the starter is engaged. Also, the oil pump moves freely when turned with an screwdriver through the distributer port. So, I replaced the roll pin, reset the timing, and it started/ran. However, after less than an hour run time, the same thing has happened; roll pin has sheared. 

 

Before proceeding, I would like to ask what could cause of this pin to shear?  Second, Solutions?

 

Thanks in advance,  

[EmTee]

What does the mating gear on the camshaft look like?  I recall Buicknutty had a similar problem with his '69 Electra.  I believe he wound-up replacing his camshaft.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/262130-my-new-infatuation-a-69-electra/page/4/#comment-1498997

[JZRIV]

While waiting for Tom T or Tom M to chime in.....maybe an oil pump issue. Shearing distributor gear pins in a stock 430 is uncommon. Looking at it from a common sensical view, there has to be too much load on the gear from either turning the distributor or the oil pump and we can pretty much rule out the distributor which leaves the oil pump. Its easy access to pull off and inspect, clean. Something may be clogged and or the spring is not regulating/relieving pressure.

 

 

 

 

   

Edited November 14, 2021 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Are the teeth on both gears OK?  Is there any odd wear, broken or chipped teeth on either the cam gear or distributor gear?  Does the distributor shaft turn freely?  Is there excessive lateral or end play on the distributor shaft?

[shuckett]

Well, the teeth of both gears seem OK; no nicks, chips, breaks, scoring, or other visual evidence of damage. The distributer rotates fully smoothly, however end play of the distributor shaft does seem somewhat excessive, no more than 1mm though. Lateral play of the shaft is nil. Looks like I'll need to invest in a micrometer to take some measurements of the system. Next up is a thorough inspection of the oil pump and pan. Being an owner of a Rover V-8, I am well aware of the issues one can have with the pump. 

[EmTee]

Measure the distributor shaft end play, just to be sure.  If that's OK, then it sounds like the oil pump is the next thing to look at...

[shuckett]

Will do, but I am limited to use of one arm at the moment (Rotator Cuff surgery). 🤕 Will need another month or so before I can justify crawling under the old girl to actually do what's necessary with the oil pump. I can and will take the measures of the distributer between now and then.