1930 chrysler cj roof replacement

[Madiskor]

I recently became owner of nice 1930 CJ (engine number starts with CJ-), it has Briggs body tag (starting 390-) on it, engine is running ok (link) and it looks good at the distance. Today I am taking complete cleaning and repainting project for the car. Car is located in north-east side of Europe where very little (almost zero) information about the original car is available. No similar car in the neighbourhood.

Several issues appear during dismantle process, which I cannot find answers from forums or internet. I hope some of you have the similar car or someone can guide me to right tracks on the information.

First I have to change the roof, because previous owner did something terrible to it. I have removed everything in order to remove and replace roof wooden frame and there is strange joint at the front (see pic 3772).

Triangular bracket is riveted to front horizontal pillar and bolted to wooden frame (right) and then welded to frame/door pillar. At the same time roof wooden frame is bolted to horizontal front pillar (bolts and screws) from position where it is impossible to remove it without removing triangular bracket. To my understanding front horizontal pillar must be part of body frame. Then in what order was all the work done?

Do I really have to cut welding and rivets in order to replace roof and wooden frame? In this case, is this the original setup? How do they think the roof should be replaced?

Thanks in advance

Madis

[Bill Harmatuk]

Absolutely beautiful automobile.

I have a 1930 CJ-6 in a million pieces. Getting ready to paint the chassis and first coat of primer on the body.

As far as I know the top frame work fits into the body as one unit and is held with machine screws around the perimeter.

I have not seen anything welded. I do know the wooden frame has metal L brackets at each top corner. The triangular bracket on either side of the windshield top is part of the body structure and I don't think you should remove it to remove the top framework.

My roof framework came out as one unit. Chicken wire and everything.

 

You do not have to cut rivets and remove the triangular bracket.

It doesn' look like the original set up. The front section looks like a beefed up repair. 

 

If you private message me I will send pictures. I will have to send pictures from my I-Phone. I will try to post here also.

 

One of my E mail addresses is

harmatukbill@gmail.com.

 

Thanks for the picture of your car. Mine is a 4 door also.

By the way. The Filling Station, (for Chevrolets), has the complete gear drive, new, for the roll up windshield. If your is broken.

Your crank hole cover is VERY expensive. I need one.

Replace the roof and leave the car as is and enjoy. Original cars are all the rave now. 

 

Bill H

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Bill Harmatuk (see edit history)

[Bill Harmatuk]

Top, Right Front Corner

Edited March 25, 2016 by Bill Harmatuk (see edit history)

[ply33]

Looks like that roof insert is installed the same way as on my later Plymouth: http://www.ply33.com/Repair/roof

[Madiskor]

Thanks for the encouragement. Couple of hours and I got it. The frame was in so bad condition it came off in 3 pieces. For later work, make note that when installing the roof, windshield must be away. You just cannot screw the roof from front properly when screwdriver is touching the glass.

There are many threads on 1929 DA-6 forum with nice drawings etc. Still, my CJ frame does not match with the Plymouth or DA-6 drawings. Here is what I figured out while taking the frame off. Frame is proportional – same width front and back. Metal trim goes wider than roof edge perimeter.

When removing the frame, you can clearly see, that top material was nailed to frame from inner corner of metal/frame. Also cemented to body (thats why the frame came out so hard). How can you stretch the top material before installing ? Must contact this car owner for consulting.

Replacement top material – colonial grain or levant grain?

[32plywood]

you need to check out Frank's house of tops.---they make wood for the mopar cars and more 

Edited March 30, 2016 by 32plywood (see edit history)

[Madiskor]

I will continue this topic with my experience to replace the roof.

 

DIY roof for 1930 Chrysler Six CJ Royal Sedan.

 

Since my roof with all the frame elements was quite rotten (see pics above), original frame could not be used anymore. It was also impossible for me to get any readymade product so I started to solve the issue and decided to do everything from the scratch.

 

You can download this guide in pdf format from here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EaUvKQ1oeKfhXBw6mDZ_mgf2LhC2m21O/view?usp=sharing

 

I will not present here almost any measurements, because it may vary from car to car. This is just for creative thinking. (Sorry, if phrasing or terms are not correct, english is not my first language).

 

The roof of my car is “on the top of the body” (I do not know how to describe it better) – specific maybe to Chrysler, Plymouth and Dodge of this era.

 

One good idea, that I got from this forum, was to use plywood. This saved my day. Once the body was done and installed back to car frame, I measured the edges of the body that would hold the frame: ca 2” wide; and cross ribs: ca 1” wide. Workshop did the clean cut of the plywood.

I calculated the frame to be done from 4 layers of plywood, that gave me ca 1” of height.

 

Photo 1. First trim the frame details to necessary length and cut the corners. Test that every detail fit on the body. Then glue the layers on site. Use enough clamps to hold the frame and give the necessary bend. The Corners will overlap: 2 bottom layers from the sides +2 top layers from front/back.

 

Photo 2 Repeat this at both sides.

 

Photo 3 And for back and front.

 

Photo 4 The Cross ribs are bent on a special frame/holder imitating the frame's width. All the ribs are of the same length, but have different bend from 1” to almost nothing. Just follow the logic that water must flow away and the bend is the greatest at the back and it should look good when covered with vinyl.

 

Photo 5 Once done, test everything before fixing corners and ribs. Here the cross ribs connection is visible: I did not bother to cut them to shape of the groove, it will be fixed by screws and glue anyway. The groove is half a way (two layers of plywood) to the frame. Same for the ribs: they are shorter from two bottom layers. I also had to grind some of the corners in order to get them at the same level with the body.

 

Photo 6 For this kind of roof, there is a metal frame that needs to be added. Test the fitting of the corners before screwing it on. It covers ca 1” distance from the roof frame.

 

Photo 7 The transition from side to corner should be smooth from outer side, otherwise it will be visible later.

 

Photo 8 The Same at the back.

 

Photo 9 Once again, test it on. Now it is also good stage to drill all the bolt holes to frame. They will be hard to do later. You can even screw the frame to place to be sure everything fits well. There may be need to make horizontal bolt holes even bigger, because of the vinyl that lifts the frame a little.

 

Photo 10 Also test the continuity of the slope of the ribs.

 

Photo 11 It is done now.

 

Photo 12 Add the chicken wire.

 

Photo 13 Add some cotton for padding.

 

Photo 14 Horizontal bolt holes. I had to make them bigger later, because vinyl + cotton lifted the frame and holes did not match anymore.

 

 

Photo 15-16 This is how it looks before applying vinyl.

 

Photo 17 On a hot summer day take it to the backyard and let it heat for couple of hours. On this photo, there is a diagonal pattern clearly visible although the grain is parallel to sides. I hope it disappears by time. The vinyl I used was short grain cobra.

 

Photo 18 Start stretching and fixing the vinyl

 

Photo 19 Initial stretching done. Vinyl fixed. Leftovers will be cut later.

 

Photo 20 Final look.

 

Photo 21 Cleaned corners. It was essential to clean the bottom side of the frame, since it did not fit well otherwise.

 

Photo 22 Sides as well. Cut the horizontal bolt holes into vinyl.

 

Photo 23 Use all the screws to tighten the roof into place. The corner screws will tighten the frame to position quite well, leaving no space whatsoever between frame- vinyl-body. Plus use horizontal bolts. It will fix it.

 

Photo 24 Done

 

Photo 25 Closeup of the left back corner.

 

Photo 26 View from the back.

 

What about adhesive – you may ask.
I did not use it because:
1.    The car barely stays outside while raining. I will avoid driving when it is raining. Minor rain should not do any harm.
2.    The construction of the roof excludes the accumulation of the water to any place on the roof.
3.    There is overlap of at least ½” where vinyl is pressed to the body in horizontal position. It must be very heavy and continuous rain to penetrate that.
4.    Without adhesive it will be much easier to remove or fix anything with the roof.
5.    When really needed, I can add a thin layer of black silicone to edge. That should keep the water away.

Constructive criticism is welcomed but it is too late for me. I am done.

 

Best regards

Madis
From Estonia

 

[ply33]

Nice workmanship and excellent photo tutorial!

 

FWIW, when driving in the rain it is very likely that it will leak around the front of the roof unless you have it properly sealed. When that happened to me I had no interior in the car which was fortunate. I'd hate to have it leak into a nice new (or even older but still good condition) headliner.

 

The original shop manuals called for using "dum-dum" between the top assembly and the body. I was told that the modern equivalent of that is something like 3M strip caulk which is what I used. No leaks for me and its been about 20 years since I put my roof on. I don't often drive it in the rain, but it is nice to know that it is leak free when I do.

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

Nice work. Only comment I have is a question as too whether MOPAR originally used cotton padding over the steel perimeter pieces. In my view, this makes the roof panel unnecessarily thick, harder to form a neat edge, and very visible from standing height. While cotton padding may give a longer life to membrane (and I'm not sure it will) I think eliminating it would make panel virtually disappear except when very close up (it would be 1/8" thick instead of 3/8" thick). Cotton padding should be slightly higher over entire surface than perimeter steel band, but stop at inner edge of band. On a final note, outer edge of steel pieces could be slightly rounded to help prologue life of membrane. When I did my '31 Chev, the original molded aluminum edge strips were no longer available and top kit came with the usual "hidem strips". When I finished putting fabric on and used "hidem" strips, the result was awful, especially going around rear corners where it stuck up nearly 3/8". Took me 3 hours to put hidem on, 30 seconds to haul it off! I took careful measurements of what I needed and a local metal shop laser cut 2 pieces as shown from 1/8" aluminum flat stock. I rounded edges on a rotor table and drilled them for countersunk brass screws every 6" and filled the screw heads with body filler before painting entire perimeter black. Roof panel practically disappears. Still had to use "hidem" across front, not yet applied in photo. More than one way to skin a cat! 

[ply33]

47 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Nice work. Only comment I have is a question as too whether MOPAR originally used cotton padding over the steel perimeter pieces. In my view, this makes the roof panel unnecessarily thick, harder to form a neat edge, and very visible from standing height. While cotton padding may give a longer life to membrane (and I'm not sure it will) I think eliminating it would make panel virtually disappear except when very close up (it would be 1/8" thick instead of 3/8" thick). Cotton padding should be slightly higher over entire surface than perimeter steel band, but stop at inner edge of band. . .

 

 

Near as I can tell, Chrysler Corp. cars used the chicken wire and cotton padding while commercial vehicles use a masonite like material over (or perhaps inset into) the wood frame. I assumed that the padding was more in the center and tapered it to nothing on by the time it reached the edges of the roof insert but I haven't seen documentation from that era that specifically states they way they did it.

[Madiskor]

In my earlier post I made drawing how this should look like. Original frame have distinctive profile where inner perimeter is lower. Lower groove ends about where metal trim starts. So if you put chicken wire and padding until metal trim, it gives you smooth surface under vinyl and only vinyl is covering metal trim. I made it simple, my frame is flat. Chicken wire and metal trim give the same height. In order to keep this I had to cover the trim as well with padding, otherwise it would look not so nice under the vinyl. My roof is ca 1/4", not too thick to annoy me. Removing padding from metal trim saves me ca 1/8" but leaves trim connections more visible. With this type of roof it always stays on top of body, unless you cut or remove the metal trims to match body mold.