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1927 Pierce Arrow Model 36 Limo


Hupp36
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I have run into problems with "lack of smooth shifting" with 600W in transmissions - often a 20's - 30's car owner's  or shop manuals will reference drops per minute and have had luck in past finding oil engineers to apply formula to their oils.

 

Also, I see no problem with rich - most 20's and 30's cars will just not be driven enough to matter.  I also always carry extra plugs (have never fouled a set on the road, though fouled many a set in our drive) and a wrench for such.  Obviously you want it rich by jet adjustment verses rich by improper float level or .... problem.

 

The greasing story reminded me of taking out all those nickle grease fittings with the nickle covers and putting in a zerk fitting for the 1931 Cadillacs every spring.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/27/2016 at 1:29 AM, John_Mereness said:

I have run into problems with "lack of smooth shifting" with 600W in transmissions - often a 20's - 30's car owner's  or shop manuals will reference drops per minute and have had luck in past finding oil engineers to apply formula to their oils.

 

Also, I see no problem with rich - most 20's and 30's cars will just not be driven enough to matter.  I also always carry extra plugs (have never fouled a set on the road, though fouled many a set in our drive) and a wrench for such.  Obviously you want it rich by jet adjustment verses rich by improper float level or .... problem.

 

The greasing story reminded me of taking out all those nickle grease fittings with the nickle covers and putting in a zerk fitting for the 1931 Cadillacs every spring   

The owner called me  and said  that he  has  joined the Pierce Arrow  Society. He  told me  that  they  have  a lot of  information  that  we  can  use to  find parts to  help keep this  fine  automobile in  great condition. Its only  been 20  days since I  have  not  seen the  Limo,  I  really  miss it.  

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  • 6 months later...

Well,  I  am back in  the  presence of the  Pierce Arrow,  can not  wait to  get back  behind the  wheel of  such  a  great  car. I  have  a good  friend  that has this  great car  &  lets  me  take care of  the  cars needs. I  am  a very  lucky man to  be  able  to  drive it  to  shows  &  just  take it  for  a ride..

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I seen the Pierce arrow when it was owned and restored by Ed Oberhaus in Ohio in his museum. He was a avid collector, and liked Pierce Arrow's, when he restored that limo no expense was spared--top notch--- restoration, and a beautiful example of a prestigious limo in the day!!!!!!!

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Thank  you  for the fine  comet. I  will be  driving  this  fine  auto after the  Thanks giving holiday.I  will need to  check it  out  as it  has  been sitting  all  summer  waiting  for  me to  make sure it  is  ready  for the  road. I  am  thankful that the  owner lets  me  take  care of  such  a  fine  automobile. I  am  not  rich  as  it  comes to  money,  but  how  many people  get  to  drive such  a  fine  car. That;s  worth a million  to  me.

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  • 1 month later...

After talking to  one  of the  guys  who  drove the  Pierce to a show this  past  summer, he  complained about the car  shifting hard,  gears not  meshing well.  I  drained the  transmission. The  gear oil that  came  out looked  fine  except for the viscosity. It  is about  50 weight. Pierce Arrow  says it  should  be  what  they  describe  as  { Special Compound}. We ordered 2 gallons of  #  W-600  to  fill the  transmission and  rear end. If the  gear  oil is to  thin,  the  gears in the  transmission will  not  slow down  fast enough to  mesh  with  the gear  you  are  shifting  to.  I  will see if  I  a  on the  right track when  we  get  the  new  oil. What  do  you good  guys that  have  helped  me in the  past  think?

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Hi Chuck, I'm delighted to hear that this splendid car is under your exceptionally able care again.

 

Yes, "Special Compound" AKA 600-W (or modern SAE-250 "straight mineral oil" -- GL-1) is the correct lube for the Series 36 transmission and differential.  The same is correct for ALL non-synchro Pierce transmissions through 1931 (but see caveat below), AND for non-hypoid differentials which were used through 1928 (see further below).  The good news is that the lighter oil you found in the transmission has served to flush it out, desirable because 600-W tends to thicken with age.  My trannies filled with 600-W are stiff for no more than the first five minutes in cooler weather; that's the nature of the beast.

 

The first Pierce synchromesh transmission appeared in the 1932 models, BUT the Pierce-Arrow Society has published P-A company documents showing a factory sponsored, authorized, and subsidized program to replace certain 1929-31 transmissions with either (1) the 1930 Clark 4-speed crash box, (2) the 1931 crash-box with free-wheeling (one year only push button for FW in shift knob), or (3) the new 1932 Warner Gear trans with FW.  A good friend has a 1930 Model B club sedan equipped, years ago, with a 1932 synchro trans but with no FW control in the driver compartment--i.e., locked out. For 1929-31 owners, note the markings on the trans case to determine which you have.

 

Differentials used by Pierce were non-hypoid through 1928.  As a rule of thumb, if the pinion enters the pumpkin in the center, the diff is NON-hypoid; if it enters near the bottom, it's hypoid.  Hypoid requires extreme-pressure lubricant, today's GL-4, available in SAE 90 or 140 (I use the 140).  The hypoid lube on the shelf today is usually GL-5 designed for limited-slip, and is NOT appropriate for the yellow-metal content in pre-war transmissions and differentials.

 

Please don't be tempted to use synthetic (GL-6).  In 1997 I undertook a cross country trip in my 1936 Pierce, and filled the diff (only) with synthetic AFTER consulting with a Ph.D. chemist at a major manufacturer of synthetic gear oil.  The chemist assured me that my yellow metal components were safe wit their synthetic. I stopped in Wyoming to refill a leaky rear shock, and was horrified to find the differential was as hot as the hinges of hell.  I quickly found an auto parts store, bought GL-4 and a drain pan, and saw the dreaded golden sparkles in the draining synthetic.  The GL-4 has served well and the diff has survived many more miles, thank God.

 

I'm also glad to hear that the owner has joined PAS.  I hope he takes advantage of the online support offered in the user name-and-password-protected "Members" section of the PAS website www.pierce-arrow.org  (note .ORG not .com).  If he has not already done so, he should sign up for that.  If he's willing, he could give you access to check (1) the online Message Board for tech support, (2) the Parts and Service Directory, and multiple other resources available in the non-public section.  Members can also purchase a thumb drive containing more than 50 years of the PAS "service bulletin" technical information, SEARCHABLE by topic and year/series/model.  PM me for more info on this.  Although we do not, at this time, have formally assigned year/series specialists, if you pose a tech question on the Message Board, you almost certainly will have an answer within 48 hours. It's an excellent benefit of membership!

 

VBR, George

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Thank you  George  for the  info. They tried to  sell me  synthetic and I  said  No. Now  from  your  experience I  am  glad  I  chose  not  to  use the  synthetic oil as  I  do  know  it  will  find  a  leak  when regular oil  will not. I  do  also  have  the  owners  permission to  go  on  his PAS site.I  will  have  a  conversation with  the  owner  about  the  thumb drive. He  is  very  willing  to give  me  all the  tools  I  need to keep  this piece of  history the  best it  can  be. Thank  you  again for  your  help. Chuck

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Thanks, Chuck.  To purchase the **CD** (formerly a thumb drive) , on the PAS website, log in to the Members Section, then select "Company Store" from the "radio buttons" on the left side of the webpage.  The Service Bulletin CD is at the top of the Company Store page.

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  • 1 month later...

The  owner has  ordered the  CD,  Thank  you  George Took the  Pierce Arrow for  about  a 15  mile  trip this  morning.  Seems to  shift  better  with  the  W-600 in the  transmission. I  am  taking it  to a  car  show tomorrow  morning  so  I  had  a friend  take a pic of  me  hand  washing  it.today. All I  need is  some  nickel polish  that  i  could  not  find in the  shop  .Called the  owner  and he  is  picking  some  up. Plenty of  time in the  morning to  polish the  bright  work.

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AJ, my new place will be a bit bigger than my current as far as square footage goes, but the yard will be MUCH smaller! You and Pam can come down and vacation in January and Feburary and stay with us, I'm going to need an assistant to help clean and wash cars! 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well  I  will  be  cleaning the  Pierce for the  last  show  be fore  I  head  north. It  is  running  great and I am  happy. Just  to  sit  in  the Chauffeurs  seat and  drive  this  piece of  history. It  is a gift  to  me that  I am  so  grateful  to  my  friend  that  lets  me  drive  this  car  and  take it  to  the  car shows .My  trophy is  talking  about the  history  of  this  car. But  I  have  never  failed to  bring  home a trophy  for  the  owner who  has  at  least 30 trophies  from the  cars  that  he  owns.

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  • 3 weeks later...

After driving  about  1/2  hour to  a show,  the  great  car  dies. Got  it  started  by  using  the  primer and  got  to the  show. Drove it  after the  show  same  as  before,  died just  before  I  got it  back to  the  hanger. Hand pushed it  into the  hanger .As  with  many  cars in  my  past, it  sounded  like the  ignition coils .Contacted  the  Pierce Arrow society for  help. They  pointed  me  to  a parts  place that  may  have  some  Delco  coils. No  luck, went  to  ebay and  found  some  that  not being  exactly what  i  needed  but  were  6  Volt pos  ground  would  tell  me  if its the  coils. Installed the  coils ,  ran the  car  and about  a 1/2 hour  latter, it  died. Now  its  up to the  condenser.  Changed  out  the  condensers and  that  did the  trick. I  need  this car  running  fine  when  I  head  north. Just  looking  at  this  car is one of  the  greatest  feeling that  a poor  boy  like  me can  have  in  his  life. I  drive  it,  and  take  car  of  it. Life  is  good.

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  • 6 months later...

Well its  been 6 months since  I  have  laid  eyes on the  great  car. I have been told the Pierce  is  waiting  for  me to start  and  drive.First I  have to take  the  1929 Hupp sport  coupe to a show  tomorrow.Gee the  tasks  the owner  gives  me  are so  challenging. Who  would not  be  up  to show  one  of the  best  Hupps in  existence.

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Ok,  the  Pierce Arrow  is  calling  my  name. The note on the  windshield  says  no  fluid in the  radiator and  bottom  hose is  leaking. I  need to  get this  great  car  back in  service as  there are  many  car  shows down here  that  I would love to  take it  to and show  people what  the  rich  and  famous people  road  in. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

While waiting  for  a carburetor for the 1931 Hupp Model S, Started  getting the  Pierce  ready  for  a show  Saturday. It  has  not  been  started  since April. I  drained the  cooling  system  before  going  north..Checked the  fluids  and  this  fine  car  started  right up. Did  not  run it  long  as  no  coolant  in the  system.  Have coolant  in  hand,  after  lunch  going  to  install  so  I  can  clean  a little  dust  off the  car  and take it  for  a  drive. Life  is  Good.

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Did the final cleaning and  ready for  the  show  Saturday. The fun thing  is  talking about the  history  of the  car. The  look on their  face  when  you tell  them  that the  handles and  metal in the  rear  compartment is  14 karat gold  plated. I just  love  this  car.

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How about posting a photo or two of the sumptuous rear compartment showing those gold plated handles?

 

Have you used the chauffeur's trick for a nearly silent departure from the curb?  Engage first gear with clutch only, no throttle, and at 4-5 mph shift to 2nd, no throttle until completely engaged, then step on throttle gently....  It may take a couple of practice tries to get this procedure down.  Perfect for departing a wedding venue....

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Hi there Grimy! I got a chuckle out of your comment "I keep a notebook in each car and jot down things needing correction as they come to my attention.  After a 100-mile trip, there's always at least one entry in the notebook." Good idea actually. Have you gotten the water pump on the Paige fixed yet? :)  Sorry, just a little ribbing to say 'hi' with.

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Hi Wayne, long time no see.  Yes, the Paige water pump is fixed.  The one long shaft was cut behind the crankcase extension, and there's now a separate shaft in the pump itself and continuing to the generator.  The next guy won't have to disassemble half the car to repair the pump!  That said, the rest of the reassembly has been on hold for other projects, but I hope to get the Paige back on its hind legs by summer.  Have a new wiring harness to install before re-installing the head.  New valves, hard seats on the exhaust.  Let me know if you come to the Bay Area.  Happy Thanksgiving! 

George 

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  • 1 month later...

Well worked on the  string  to  see if  I  could  free it  up  a bit.  It  feels a  little  better.  We  are  taking  4  cars to the  show  this  coming  Sunday. I  will be  able to  tell if the steering is  any  easier.  If  not  I  have to  bit  the  bullet and  pull out  the  whole  steering  column.  As this  car is  a super  restoration,  that  will not  be  and  easy  job. I  may  wait till before  I  head north so  I  can  fabricate new  bushings and check  the   cams in the  steering box.  I  have  tried taking the steering box  apart in the  car  and could  not  find  out  what  I  need to  know. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

To free up the steering, jack up the front axle take the car's weight off of the kingpins and thrust bearings..  Pump 'special compound' through the kingpin zerks while moving the steering from lock to lock.. keep pushing 600w or even 140 weight through the kingpins until the steering does not improve any more.. 

 

Working on the steering gear box is a similar process.  What happens way too often is that the zerk fitting on the top of the steering gear box as an indication to put chassis grease in the steering box. Since chassis grease does not 'flow', when chassis grease is put in a steering gear box, the upper and lower shaft bushings don't get lubrication, nor does the pitman shaft get any new lubrication once the old 'special compound' weeps out.   The steering gear box, inspite of being full of 'a' lubricant, it will not get to the areas that need lubrication..  

If can, remove the steering box's inner cover and scoop, then wash out the chassis grease..  Then reinstall the cover, and fill with a light gear oil, like 80-90wt. 

Keep working the steering wheel from lock to lock, The lighter weight gear lube will work it's way into the bearings and bushings.  Once the lubricant has made it's way into all the dry bearings and bushings,, you will start to see the thin gear lubricant will start leaking out the pitman arm and the bottom of the gear box's seal around the throttle and timing rods.  

You can remove the steering box cover and let the light lubricant drain, or you might be able to use a suction gun with a thin suction tube.  Replace with 600w or thicker gear lubricant.  

With the very extensive and well done restoration on this car, i doubt that the steering box was ignored.  So the stiffness in the steering system seems most likely to be lubrication-related..  

 

Greg Long

 

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  • 4 months later...

Well Thanks  to my good  friend  Dale, he  said that  I  was  the  only  one  that  should take  care  of  this  car, it now  is  in  N.h. in my  care  and  custody as  he  wished. I  will do  my  best  to  carry out  his  wishes.  

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  • 1 month later...

Well after getting  the proper insurance needed, its  time  to  take  the  P/A out  to see the  community and  let  the  town  people  see  a car  that  has  never  been  seen in  a  small town  like  where  we  live. I  signed  it  up  for  a  show  on  Aug.  4th. Dale  would be  happy  that  I  am  showing  the  car, I  am  happy  toooo.

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Please joint the Pierce-Arrow Society as Dale had.  There is a North East Region that has a get-together each year.   

 

The Pierce Arrow Society has an annual meet each year in various parts of the country. This year, 2018, the meet was in Grimy's back yard: North of 

San Francisco in Sonoma Wine Country.  It was a wonderful meet.  Several PAS members from New England arrived and had a great time.  

 

Next year, June 10-June 16, 2019, the PAS Annual Meet will be in NE Indiana, in the Pokagon Indiana State Park.  We will have 3 days of touring and a great

car show/judging show on the grounds of the host Inn within the State Park.  

If you can come, we'd sure like to see you and your wonderful car at this meet.  Look on the Pierce-Arrow.org website for more information, or in the PAS publications.  

 

GLong

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I  am  a member  of the  Pierce  Arrow Society  and  have  been  one  even  before I  was  the  owner  of  the  1927  Model  36 Limo. I  plan  to  make  as  many  meets as  possible  for  me.. I am  currently restoring  a 1925  Ajax  and have  several  more  Hupmobiles  to  restore. Money derived  form sale  of these  cars  is  what tells  me  how  many  meets  I  am  able  to  make. My  main  concern is to  keep  the  Pierce as  it  should  be  as  a piece of  history.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The  show  got  rained  out  Saturday  so  the had it  Sunday. Dale  would  be  happy, picked  up a trophy. My  trophy is  showing  the  car  and  telling the  people  about  its  history. As you  can  see by the  pic it  was  a country  setting.

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