61-63

'63 Pontiac Catalina 421 Super Duty tribute car

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2 hours ago, helfen said:

Steve, don't you think in all fairness something should be done about the situation. There are two SD types of Pontiac's. The 62-63 cars were factory intended special order built race cars never intended for the street. The other is the street legal Firebird T/A SD. Don't you think it would be much clearer to differentiate the two and move the 62-63 SD race cars into the race car category where they rightfully belong. This would also end the Cloning of cars that have no right to call themselves SD cars.

 

The problem is, if you do it for Pontiacs, you also have to do it for Mustangs, and Camaros, and Cadillac V16s with fake roadster bodies, and Model As with Model B engines, and, well, obviously it gets out of hand pretty quickly. The AACA can't be the numbers police, the magnitude of the job is just too overwhelming. It's great that the knowledge is out there to correctly identify special cars, but if you're going to apply this level of scrutiny to one type of car, you will have to apply it to all of them and that's just not possible except at the very highest levels of marque club competition where, as Ted Sweet points out, it takes a full team of experts the better part of a day to verify it completely.

 

Steve and the folks in charge of AACA judging know it's a compromise and that there are real risks to the integrity of the hobby and the club where clones are concerned, but the reality is that this kind of job is just too big for a staff of volunteers spending a few hours looking at cars on a grass field.

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Matt,
Class 36A may be a good choice, but he must submit a letter to the VP Class Judging for
approval because that car is not on the current 36A approved list.

 

Edited by 61polara (see edit history)

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You may want to double check the list.  According to the 2016 Judges Guidlines, I see 1963 Pontiac Super Duty listed in 36A.

 

36a.Buick & Pontiac................. 1957-1969

Buick Grand Sport w/400cid and Stage 1

.......................................... 1967-1969

Riviera G/S w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v) ..................1964-1969

Skylark S/S 4v, w/401cid....1965-1966

Wildcat 2dr.4v, w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v)..................1964-1969

Wildcat G/S w/Y-4 option..........1966

Pontiac Bonneville 2dr. w/fuel injection 315hp

or higher ........................... 1957-1958

Bonneville & all Chief models 2dr. 3-2v,

w/370cid (330hp) ..............1958

Catalina/Ventura 2dr, 4v or 3-2v, w/389cid (345hp or higher)

..........................................1959-1962

Catalina 2dr, 4v & 3-2v w/412cid

..........................................1962-1966

SuperDuty..................................1963

2+2's ..........................................1966

Catalina 2+2, w/4v & 428cid......1967

Firebird 4v, w/400cid, includes H.O.& ram air

.............................. 1967-1969

Firebird 4v w/350cid H.O. 320hp

..........................................1968-1969

Firebird Trans Am 4v, w/400cid

includes H.O. ram air................1969

Grand Prix 4v, w/421cid includes 3-2v

..........................................1962-1966

Grand Prix 4v, w/428cid includes H.O.

.......................................... 1967-1969

GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v, w/389cid includes 3-2v

....................1964-1966 GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v,

w/400cid includes H.O. & ram air..... 1967-1969 

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15 hours ago, MCHinson said:

You may want to double check the list.  According to the 2016 Judges Guidlines, I see 1963 Pontiac Super Duty listed in 36A.

 

36a.Buick & Pontiac................. 1957-1969

Buick Grand Sport w/400cid and Stage 1

.......................................... 1967-1969

Riviera G/S w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v) ..................1964-1969

Skylark S/S 4v, w/401cid....1965-1966

Wildcat 2dr.4v, w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v)..................1964-1969

Wildcat G/S w/Y-4 option..........1966

Pontiac Bonneville 2dr. w/fuel injection 315hp

or higher ........................... 1957-1958

Bonneville & all Chief models 2dr. 3-2v,

w/370cid (330hp) ..............1958

Catalina/Ventura 2dr, 4v or 3-2v, w/389cid (345hp or higher)

..........................................1959-1962

Catalina 2dr, 4v & 3-2v w/412cid

..........................................1962-1966

SuperDuty..................................1963

2+2's ..........................................1966

Catalina 2+2, w/4v & 428cid......1967

Firebird 4v, w/400cid, includes H.O.& ram air

.............................. 1967-1969

Firebird 4v w/350cid H.O. 320hp

..........................................1968-1969

Firebird Trans Am 4v, w/400cid

includes H.O. ram air................1969

Grand Prix 4v, w/421cid includes 3-2v

..........................................1962-1966

Grand Prix 4v, w/428cid includes H.O.

.......................................... 1967-1969

GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v, w/389cid includes 3-2v

....................1964-1966 GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v,

w/400cid includes H.O. & ram air..... 1967-1969 

 Any Idea what happened to the 1962 Super Duties , and the 1964-1966 326 H-O Lemans, Tempest,  68 Lemans and Tempest 350 H-0 320hp and the 69 LeMans, Custom S and Tempest 350 H-O 330 hp. GT37's, Grand Am's.  Don't forget the 1966-69 OHC Sprint LeMans, Custom S and Tempest.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)

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31 minutes ago, helfen said:

 Any Idea what happened to the 1962 Super Duties , and the 68 Lemans 350 H-0 320hp and the 69 LeMans 350 H-O 330 hp. ??

Perhaps nobody has asked to have those cars added to the class. 

To understand this in context, you need to read the description of Class 36, found just before the list of cars in class 36a:

"36. FACTORY HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLES The Factory High Performance class has been developed especially for performance oriented domestic vehicles, from their beginnings in the 1950’s thru their “heyday” of the late 60’s and early 70’s and on. Eligibility for vehicles in this category is evaluated on a case by case basis, taking into consideration individual merits such as weight to horsepower ratio, the manufacturer’s actual intent, and the era in which the vehicle was built. These are just a few of the qualifying points of consideration. This class is a work in progress and will continue to develop over time. Applications for additional vehicles to be added to the existing list of accepted vehicles must be submitted in writing, along with any accompanying factory documentation, to the VP Judging for review by the Specified Class Committee (SCC), 4-18 that will make a recommendation to the Judging Committee. The name and address of the VP Judging can be found in each issue of the “Antique Automobile”. Always check AACA Headquarters for the most current listing of accepted vehicles in this class. NOTE: “v” refers to carburetor size/barrels"

 

 

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At the Virginia Beach show last year I transported and prepared a 1962 SD for a friend.  The car is street tagged not driven though and was driven unto the show field by me into 36A. Oh, it is a correct PHS car.  Even got a first Junior for it.  The comment someone made about looking for these on the field was accurate as most folks walked by it without paying attention but the one's who did know were impressed

Robert

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Matt,

You are correct.  It is listed in 36a.  Must have had a senior moment when looking at the current list.

 

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Some historical perspective on Class 36A.  When the class was first approved a committee and some sub-committees were formed to figure out what belonged in these classes.  A LOT of hard work was done and individual marque clubs were contacted as to what they believed constituted a high performance car.  The club new full well that additions to these lists would be made in the future as it was a pretty impossible task to get it right immediately.  Case in point, two cars will be reviewed by the Class Judging Committee in Auburn.  On the surface, they both seem to qualify but no one in years brought these cars up.

 

The good news is that when resented a logical case for inclusion the committee acts upon it.  In some cases it has to wait until the following year to make it into the judging guidelines but the committee does meet at least three times a year and approves things as appropriate. 

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33 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Some historical perspective on Class 36A.  When the class was first approved a committee and some sub-committees were formed to figure out what belonged in these classes.  A LOT of hard work was done and individual marque clubs were contacted as to what they believed constituted a high performance car.  The club new full well that additions to these lists would be made in the future as it was a pretty impossible task to get it right immediately.  Case in point, two cars will be reviewed by the Class Judging Committee in Auburn.  On the surface, they both seem to qualify but no one in years brought these cars up.

 

The good news is that when resented a logical case for inclusion the committee acts upon it.  In some cases it has to wait until the following year to make it into the judging guidelines but the committee does meet at least three times a year and approves things as appropriate. 

I think that explains the comment Matt made when he said " Perhaps nobody has asked to have those cars added to the class. "

 I think the question should be asked is how / why  Super Duty Pontiac race cars made it into this class instead of the race class?   

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On 4/20/2016 at 6:06 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Helfen, AACA race car classes are CERTIFIED.  That means that every race car entering those classes must PROVE that they have a race history.  The owner of the car submits an application to a committee of race car experts who review the data to make sure the car is the real deal.  So no. those cars cannot go into a race car class unless they actually raced and the owner can prove it so.

You may want to read Steve's earlier comment again as well as the explanation of class 36 that I posted earlier.

If an individual one of these cars had actual race history, an owner could ask to have that car added to the race car class. One that had no history of use as a race car would be ineligible for the AACA's race car class and would be eligible for Class 36a, as has been stated previously in this discussion.

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59 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

You may want to read Steve's earlier comment again as well as the explanation of class 36 that I posted earlier.

If an individual one of these cars had actual race history, an owner could ask to have that car added to the race car class. One that had no history of use as a race car would be ineligible for the AACA's race car class and would be eligible for Class 36a, as has been stated previously in this discussion.

I did read Steve's comment. So I understand that with the multitude of different cars that AACA can't know everything. I understand that a 1963 Pontiac with a 267 hp. A/T could be converted to a 4speed Tri-Power car for AACA showing purposes because you could order one that way if you wanted. But those cars are regular production cars.

If you would say the 62-63 SD have to be in the race car class, this would mean not only the cars are put in their rightful class, but they would have to produce pedigree  ( no extra work on AACA's part ).  Producing pedigree would help eliminate cloning. I don't think cloned cars are the objective especially when these cars can demand six figures. We have to remember these cars were built as race cars and not to be driven on the street and they are different than the 63 267 hp automatic car I mentioned above. Most dealers not only didn't know how to order one of these cars, they didn't even know they existed.

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I am trying to understand your point. The best that I understand your point is you don't think that a 1963 Super Duty Pontiac should be in any class other than a race car class. To be accepted into AACA's race car class requires each particular car to have documented race history.

 

If is was possible for someone to order a 1963 Super Duty Pontiac, then AACA needs to have a class to judge it in.

 

If one of these cars was ordered and was not actually used as a race car, what class should AACA put it in? Without documented race history, it would not be eligible for AACA's race car class. If not 36a, what other AACA class would you think it should belong in? 

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For the purposes of classification in the AACA, I don't think it matters how the factory intended them to be used, it matters how they were sold. And it appears that the Super Duty cars were sold as "production" cars through regular dealer channels and purchased by guys who may or may not have bought them to go racing. Some guys wanted the fastest street car around and some did race, and as race cars, they would belong in the race car class. If we take the SDs out of class 36A, do they get left out of the AACA completely because most don't have race history and are therefore not eligible for the race car class?

 

I don't think the classification committee is forcing all L88 Corvettes into the race class, are they? Shelby Cobras? Bugatti Type 35s? Max Wedge Mopars? All cars intended for racing but sold to the general public, who used them in a variety of ways, one of which might have been racing. If you had the money and knew how to place the order, they would give you a race car. The factory didn't particularly care what you were going to do with it.

 

Yes, the SDs were intended to be race cars. They were built to be race cars. But if a car never raced, it doesn't have history, and as such, it doesn't belong in a class with race cars with histories. It's the same reason they don't put Parnelli Jones's restored 1970 Boss 302 Trans-Am racer into the production Mustang class, even though it is technically a production car...

 

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On 4/22/2016 at 7:01 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, the SDs were intended to be race cars. They were built to be race cars. But if a car never raced, it doesn't have history, and as such, it doesn't belong in a class with race cars with histories. It's the same reason they don't put Parnelli Jones's restored 1970 Boss 302 Trans-Am racer into the production Mustang class, even though it is technically a production car...

 

 

OK, but let me throw a little gasoline on that fire... 

 

Within the last 5-10 years, the three Detroit manufacturers have sold factory-built race cars that are NOT street-legal and do not carry a legal VIN.  These are cars like the 2013-2016 COPO Camaro, the 2008-2016 Mustang Cobra Jet, and the 2015-2015 Challenger Drag Pack. None of these cars carry emissions equipment and thus cannot ever be legally titled and registered for street use, but they are factory-built race cars.  I realize most readers here couldn't care less about "new" cars, but they will eventually be 25 years old.  What happens then?  Several of the Cobra Jets were bought by collectors and immediately put into storage as an investment (yes, I hope they loose money on that).  Those cars will not have a racing history.

 

Discuss among yourselves...  :D

Edited by joe_padavano (see edit history)

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The only good answer that I have for that is that the Judging Guidelines and Judging System have evolved over the years. This process will continue. Either the Guidelines will evolve in the next 25 years to handle that sort of situation or else those cars won't be judged in AACA in 25 years.

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18 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

OK, but let me throw a little gasoline on that fire... 

 

Within the last 5-10 years, the three Detroit manufacturers have sold factory-built race cars that are NOT street-legal and do not carry a legal VIN.  These are cars like the 2013-2016 COPO Camaro, the 2008-2016 Mustang Cobra Jet, and the 2015-2015 Challenger Drag Pack. None of these cars carry emissions equipment and thus cannot ever be legally titled and registered for street use, but they are factory-built race cars.  I realize most readers here couldn't care less about "new" cars, but they will eventually be 25 years old.  What happens then?  Several of the Cobra Jets were bought by collectors and immediately put into storage as an investment (yes, I hope they loose money on that).  Those cars will not have a racing history.

 

Discuss among yourselves...  :D

 

But they are technically "production" cars that you can buy from a dealer and do with as you wish. The intent that they go racing doesn't automatically make them racing cars. Street legal or not, the factory built them, the public bought them and then used them however they wished, race or not. Therefore, they should be considered production cars, at least in the AACA's eyes. No race history, not a race car. I used to race my 1993 Ford Mustang, now I don't. When it's eligible for AACA events in two years, I won't be trying to register it as a race car.

 

The point of the race car class is to focus on the history of the race car, not the mere existence of it.

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2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

The point of the race car class is to focus on the history of the race car, not the mere existence of it.

 

OK, I can accept that.

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3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

But they are technically "production" cars that you can buy from a dealer and do with as you wish. The intent that they go racing doesn't automatically make them racing cars. Street legal or not, the factory built them, the public bought them and then used them however they wished, race or not. Therefore, they should be considered production cars, at least in the AACA's eyes. No race history, not a race car. I used to race my 1993 Ford Mustang, now I don't. When it's eligible for AACA events in two years, I won't be trying to register it as a race car.

 

The point of the race car class is to focus on the history of the race car, not the mere existence of it.

Matt, in the old days of NASCAR and NHRA, IHRA all of those cars had to be factory built, so you might as well include those cars with the cars Joe is talking about pedigree or not. What makes a factory race car is not it's pedigree, but what was the intent of the factory in building such cars. If you have that documentation pedigree or not the car should be in a factory race car class. A P-51 Mustang is still a Mustang, it's mission whether or not it flew in combat is the same.  

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Just to throw another monkey wrench into the discussion AACA accepts "motorized vehicles 25 years old or older, which were built in factories and SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED FOR TRANSPORTATION USE ON PUBLIC ROADWAYS". The argument could be made that production race cars could only be shown in the Race Car class and then only if they were actually raced. Good thing AACA is constantly tweaking the rules. If a car isn't or never was street legal how could it be shown in a Production class.

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3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Just to throw another monkey wrench into the discussion AACA accepts "motorized vehicles 25 years old or older, which were built in factories and SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED FOR TRANSPORTATION USE ON PUBLIC ROADWAYS". The argument could be made that production race cars could only be shown in the Race Car class and then only if they were actually raced. Good thing AACA is constantly tweaking the rules. If a car isn't or never was street legal how could it be shown in a Production class.

  Some people did register some of these factory RACE cars for the street after their intent was done even though the factory never condoned doing that, and that was the reason for the disclaimers that went with the cars to their owners warning against that very thing. Still these cars are RACE cars.

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4 hours ago, gpfarrell said:

I'd say a car isn't a race car until it races.

This Jaguar was supposed to race at LeMans, after it was built the race sanctioning body changed the engine size and virtually outlawed the car for LeMans which it was built for. Even though it never raced it is still a RACE CAR.

 4959036_10-of-the-greatest-classic-cars- 

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23 minutes ago, helfen said:

This Jaguar was supposed to race at LeMans, after it was built the race sanctioning body changed the engine size and virtually outlawed the car for LeMans which it was built for. Even though it never raced it is still a RACE CAR.

  

 

But under the current Judging Guidelines, if it was never raced it will never be an AACA Certified Race Car. 

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56 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

But under the current Judging Guidelines, if it was never raced it will never be an AACA Certified Race Car. 

And where would this factory race car be able to be shown?

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I have no idea. I don't even know what year the car is or anything else about it. All that I know from your post is that it is a Jaguar that was supposed to be built to race at Lemans. If it was not intended for use for transportation on public roadways or highways it would probably not be eligible for judging in any AACA class under the current judging guidelines.

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