'63 Pontiac Catalina 421 Super Duty tribute car

[61-63]

I have a '63 Pontiac Catalina that I am finishing up as a 421 Super Duty tribute car.  If was built as a 2bbl automatic run of the mill car but will, by the time I am done, hopefully this summer, have all of the "correct" components that a 421SD car would have had when assembled by PMD in 1963.

 

Can a car like this be entered in class 36a (I think that is the right class?) in an AACA meet?

[real61ss]

Yes, it can. AACA does not check numbers, as long as the car was available and is constructed as it would have come from the factory you will be ok

[Phillip Cole]

...And bring your factory documentation.  It would be a shame for you to do all that work turning it into a Super Duty and not have the documentation for a component  that the judging team might question.

[61-63]

Thank you both.

[real61ss]

I look forward to seeing the car.

[paul455]

Call AACA Headquarters at 717-534-1910 and ask for Lynn.

There is no none that knows more about the judging system than she does

[61-63]

I look forward to seeing the car.

 

Me too, this car has fought me tooth and nail.  I will post a few pictures later this year when it is done.

 

Thank you paul455 I may call her.

[Guest]

It's too bad as the documentation for all the 62-63 SD cars is available including ALL the vin #'s of those cars. I might as well start cloning GTO's and T/A's.

Is tribute a new or friendly word for clone?  I have a friend who has a REAL one ( 63 SD),  are we to assume letting this go that this kind of thing helps all his effort restoring this car.

Accept a car for what it is, not what you want it to be.

AACA should wake up, the vin #'s for these  SD cars are available.  

A SD car is a factory race car and race cars have their own category 24 something I think.

If you show your car in 36A which is factory high performance, you will have many things on your car ( SD components ) that will not be correct in 36A. You would be much better off CLONING a 1963 Catalina H-O car because that would be ( unfortunately ) in the 36A category.

 

 I have a 63 Catalina, 303hp,  Roto HydraMatic and a 3.08 Safety Track and Factory Air. That is the way the car was built from the factory and that is what AACA is supposed to be about.   

Edited April 18, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[real61ss]

1 hour ago, helfen said:

It's too bad as the documentation for all the 62-63 SD cars is available including ALL the vin #'s of those cars. I might as well start cloning GTO's and T/A's.

Is tribute a new or friendly word for clone?  I have a friend who has a REAL one ( 63 SD),  are we to assume letting this go that this kind of thing helps all his effort restoring this car.

Accept a car for what it is, not what you want it to be.

AACA should wake up, the vin #'s for these  SD cars are available.  

A SD car is a factory race car and race cars have their own category 24 something I think.

If you show your car in 36A which is factory high performance, you will have many things on your car ( SD components ) that will not be correct in 36A. You would be much better off CLONING a 1963 Catalina H-O car because that would be ( unfortunately ) in the 36A category.

 

 I have a 63 Catalina, 303hp,  Roto HydraMatic and a 3.08 Safety Track and Factory Air. That is the way the car was built from the factory and that is what AACA is supposed to be about.   

 The AACA checks no numbers, the rule book states, "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as the DEALER COULD HAVE PREPARED THE VEHICLE FOR DELIVERY to the customer". Based on this, anyone could have purchased a 63 Pontiac with the standard motor then purchased through the dealer parts dept. a SD motor and installed it in the car. Like it or not this gentlemans car is legal in 36A. I'm also sure that there are plenty of GTO's on the show field that started life as a regular Tempest.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, real61ss said:

 The AACA checks no numbers, the rule book states, "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as the DEALER COULD HAVE PREPARED THE VEHICLE FOR DELIVERY to the customer". Based on this, anyone could have purchased a 63 Pontiac with the standard motor then purchased through the dealer parts dept. a SD motor and installed it in the car. Like it or not this gentlemans car is legal in 36A. I'm also sure that there are plenty of GTO's on the show field that started life as a regular Tempest.

Sorry guy, a SD car is a Factory race car. If you are cloning a race car it would go in a race car category. 36A is factory muscle, not race cars.

So a clone SD car ( Factory RACE Car ) cannot be shown in 36A because race cars are different from factory muscle. Race cars have to show some sort of race pedigree to qualify to be shown, and this car has no pedigree so it's without a class. This guy could clone a 421 H-O as said before, and could unfortunately show it in 36A, this is unfortunately is a loophole which originally is not AACA's intent. Call Rick Gonser and ask him.    

Edited April 18, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

helfen,

 

You may not like it but a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty is specifically listed in the Judging Guidelines as Class 36A. You can argue forever that it should or should not be in that class but that is the correct class for the car. 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

helfen,

 

You may not like it but a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty is specifically listed in the Judging Guidelines as Class 36A. You can argue forever that it should or should not be in that class but that is the correct class for the car. 

A factory SD Pontiac is a race car, race cars have a class

[MCHinson]

 I don't think you understand AACA's idea of a high performance production vehicle versus AACA's idea of a Race Car.

 

As I stated, you may not like it but...

 

a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty is in AACA Class 36A.

 

There is no reason to continue arguing with me or anybody else on here. If you feel that a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty should be in a Race Car Class, you should write a letter to the VP of Judging.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

 I don't think you understand AACA's idea of a high performance production vehicle versus AACA's idea of a Race Car.

 

As I stated, you may not like it but...

 

a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty is in AACA Class 36A.

 

There is no reason to continue arguing with me or anybody else on here. If you feel that a 1963 Pontiac Super Duty should be in a Race Car Class, you should write a letter to the VP of Judging.

 Apparently not as I went up and re-read the categories. Legal as you would say I can't see how a SD car which comes with a race only disclaimer in the glovebox stating that the car is intended for racing only ends up out of the race car category. And to clone one and possibly get a award is beyond logic and not very becoming of AACA.

[llskis]

21 hours ago, helfen said:

 

Is tribute a new or friendly word for clone?  I have a friend who has a REAL one ( 63 SD),  are we to assume letting this go that this kind of thing helps all his effort restoring this car.

Accept a car for what it is, not what you want it to be.

AACA should wake up, the vin #'s for these  SD cars are available.  

A SD car is a factory race car and race cars have their own category 24 something I think.

helfen: You are correct; it is unfortunate AACA has taken a path down this lane. I guess they will accept any clone now. By doing so their awards have way less value then they use to. So Sad. Larry

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, llskis said:

 

 I hope this guy knows that if he does this clone right, that drilling some 120 holes in the frame like the 63 SD's had will render his car un street worthy. Remember what we called the 63 SD Catalinas? They were called the swiss cheese cars. Wonder where he found the dies to do the doors, hood, deck lid, front fenders, and front and rear bumpers all out of aluminum. Don't forget the plexiglass windows. And make sure that SO tag is riveted to the firewall next to the data tag.

 My assumption of how S/D cars got into this AACA category was that it came from the S/D Trans Am which is a regular production Super Duty car. For the good of AACA standing maybe the club should re-evaluate the category as it stands. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

22 hours ago, real61ss said:

 The AACA checks no numbers, the rule book states, "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as the DEALER COULD HAVE PREPARED THE VEHICLE FOR DELIVERY to the customer". Based on this, anyone could have purchased a 63 Pontiac with the standard motor then purchased through the dealer parts dept. a SD motor and installed it in the car. Like it or not this gentlemans car is legal in 36A. I'm also sure that there are plenty of GTO's on the show field that started life as a regular Tempest.

 

I'm with Helfin on this.  Where does one draw the line?  A dealer could have installed a Chevy motor if the customer paid enough (yeah, I know about Canadian built Pontiacs and you know that's not what I'm talking about).  Is that also legal? Allowing clones/tributes/repros/fakes or whatever the currently in-vogue term is into the same classes as original cars is just wrong and devalues the work that was done to preserve and restore an original.  It also encourages fakes to be built.

[Matt Harwood]

I believe 77 SD Catalinas were built, but only 14 (11?) were "Swiss Cheese" cars. I don't think he needs the holes to be accurate. However, there are still plenty of unobtainium bits that did go into an SD that will be difficult to replicate, and if he wants to be judged, they'd better be there. Personally, I think it's a cool car nonetheless.

 

At any rate, I was always under the impression that if a car presented on an AACA show field is as it could have been built by the factory it is eligible to be judged, regardless of how it was originally configured. I think a broad-based club like the AACA getting into chasing numbers and documenting such a wide variety of cars is an insurmountable task that would be unfair to unload onto the judges. Marque-specific clubs may verify that a car is as it was originally built, depending on the club, and that is probably the right place for a car to be properly vetted--I know the very highest levels of Corvette competition insist that the cars are 100% as-built and they do check numbers. While we don't like to say it out loud, general clubs like the AACA and CCCA that embrace a multitude of marques typically judge the quality of workmanship and general correctness while brand-specific clubs are better arbiters of absolute authenticity. Most AACA judges aren't going to know that on Tuesdays they used the orange throttle return spring while on Wednesdays they were green, but the judges at a marque show probably would.
 

And to be honest, permitting accurately-done clones allows them to be entered as "could have beens" rather than clandestinely inserted into circulation, which is a much bigger problem (fraud) for everyone in the hobby. I would much rather have an owner be up front about what he has rather than lie and deceive to get it into a show where he would otherwise be unwelcome. I think the AACA should continue to be as welcoming as possible to people who want to keep their cars correct (if not accurate, if you understand how I'm using the terms), rather than modifying them. If someone wants to build a Catalina Super Duty clone, and he's doing it so accurately that a magnet won't stick to the bumpers or exhaust manifolds, I'm OK with that. It's better than seeing the car with a big block Chevy stuffed in it, because that's where a majority of the hobby is headed. It's a compromise, yes, but one that protects what we all cherish about the hobby.

 

I agree that it would be beneficial to the club to do this kind of vetting, but given the amount of time it takes to document a marque with which you are familiar, let alone a type of car that may be unfamiliar, It's hugely prohibitive to make it a part of AACA judging and show requirements. Are we going to start pulling bodies off of Model As to make sure the frame number matches the engine number? Remember that if you're vetting one guy's car at the molecular level, you'd better be vetting them all, otherwise everyone will lose their minds--you guys who judge know what I'm talking about.

 

Just to be clear for those who like to pick fights: I agree that clones can hurt the club's credibility, but I don't think it's practical to vet them on the show field nor ultimately beneficial to the club to keep cars like this Catalina out of shows. Purity tests ultimately hurt everyone and that's not why anyone is in this hobby. Remember this is supposed to be fun.

[real61ss]

Well, I don't want to argue with anyone, I have been involved in this thread from the beginning and I see both sides but it bothers me to see incorrect information posted on the internet and left uncorrected, there are people who visit these sites and take this information for the gospel. I see now where Helfin is coming from. He is referring to the Swiss Cheese cars which the gentleman building the car in question never once implied he was cloning a Swiss Cheese car. In 1963 Pontiac built a total of 88 Super Duty cars, of those 88 cars, 77 were Catalinas and 11 were Tempests. Only 15 were Swiss Cheese cars. The 15 Swiss Cheese cars were purpose built race cars, they did have the frames lightened and the glass was replaced with Plexiglas, these cars were disturbed to race teams, most of these cars, if they were restored today would probably be shown in the Race Car class if the owners choose to show in AACA.   However, the SD Catalinas were equipped with regular glass and had full interiors, some had aluminum front ends and bumpers but some had steel front ends, it depended on how the car was ordered. These cars (not the Swiss Cheese cars) were available to the public and while Pontiac did discourage the use of them for street use there is nothing that prevented them from being titled and driven on the street. Some of these cars were used in NASCAR racingand at least one was used in Pikes Peak Hill Climb competition. The Pikes Peak car had a steel front end.

Pontiac also offered the Super Duty option in 1962, there 178 such cars built that year and of that number, 16 were actuallyGrand Prix's, surely no one would have purchased a heavy GP for racing. I personally know that some of these cars were street driven.

I see Matt Harwood beat me to the response but we said about the same thing, lets ease up, let the guy show his car if he wants. I still look forward to seeing it.

  

Edited April 19, 2016 by real61ss
Spelling (see edit history)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I believe 77 SD Catalinas were built, but only 14 (11?) were "Swiss Cheese" cars. I don't think he needs the holes to be accurate. However, there are still plenty of unobtainium bits that did go into an SD that will be difficult to replicate, and if he wants to be judged, they'd better be there. Personally, I think it's a cool car nonetheless.

 

At any rate, I was always under the impression that if a car presented on an AACA show field is as it could have been built by the factory it is eligible to be judged, regardless of how it was originally configured. I think a broad-based club like the AACA getting into chasing numbers and documenting such a wide variety of cars is an insurmountable task that would be unfair to unload onto the judges. Marque-specific clubs may verify that a car is as it was originally built, depending on the club, and that is probably the right place for a car to be properly vetted--I know the very highest levels of Corvette competition insist that the cars are 100% as-built and they do check numbers. While we don't like to say it out loud, general clubs like the AACA and CCCA that embrace a multitude of marques typically judge the quality of workmanship and general correctness while brand-specific clubs are better arbiters of absolute authenticity. Most AACA judges aren't going to know that on Tuesdays they used the orange throttle return spring while on Wednesdays they were green, but the judges at a marque show probably would.
 

And to be honest, permitting accurately-done clones allows them to be entered as "could have beens" rather than clandestinely inserted into circulation, which is a much bigger problem (fraud) for everyone in the hobby. I would much rather have an owner be up front about what he has rather than lie and deceive to get it into a show where he would otherwise be unwelcome. I think the AACA should continue to be as welcoming as possible to people who want to keep their cars correct (if not accurate, if you understand how I'm using the terms), rather than modifying them. If someone wants to build a Catalina Super Duty clone, and he's doing it so accurately that a magnet won't stick to the bumpers or exhaust manifolds, I'm OK with that. It's better than seeing the car with a big block Chevy stuffed in it, because that's where a majority of the hobby is headed. It's a compromise, yes, but one that protects what we all cherish about the hobby.

 

I agree that it would be beneficial to the club to do this kind of vetting, but given the amount of time it takes to document a marque with which you are familiar, let alone a type of car that may be unfamiliar, It's hugely prohibitive to make it a part of AACA judging and show requirements. Are we going to start pulling bodies off of Model As to make sure the frame number matches the engine number? Remember that if you're vetting one guy's car at the molecular level, you'd better be vetting them all, otherwise everyone will lose their minds--you guys who judge know what I'm talking about.

 

Just to be clear for those who like to pick fights: I agree that clones can hurt the club's credibility, but I don't think it's practical to vet them on the show field nor ultimately beneficial to the club to keep cars like this Catalina out of shows. Purity tests ultimately hurt everyone and that's not why anyone is in this hobby. Remember this is supposed to be fun.

Matt, are you implying that to complain about cloning a car and to enter it in a AACA show is picking a fight or wants or likes to pick a fight?

 

  FYI Pontiac made 85 1963 SD cars ( # 85 was the Pikes Peak car) .

 I think if information is available on cars is known then it should be used by a AACA judge. The information on these 85 cars Vin & engine #'s and how they came is available ( I have them and so have many others). If you don't have that kind of information I can see your point, but if you do use the tools available!

A easier clone would be a 64-65 GTO, do you think that is OK? There is more information on the SD cars than PHS has on LeMans GTO's!

 

What really gets me is a guy on one of the car shows on TV, or a magazine which clearly shows a AACA Senior badge and the owner says ( This featured car was a 61 Catalina ) my car started out life with a 267 hp 389 and 2bbl carb but I added a cam and Tri-Power, I didn't like the Roto HydraMatic so I added a four speed Super HydraMatic, and I changed the 2.67 rear end to a 3.42 Posi. 

 The other car I saw was another AACA senior badged 61 Ventura and the owner said he updated ( I love these terms)  his 235hp 389 2bbl for a 348hp 389 version and updated the standard 3 speed column shift for the BW T10 4 speed and removed his 2.56 peg leg for a 3.90 Safety Track.

This is what's wrong and what is even more than wrong it's on TV for all to see with the little AACA badge telling the world it's OK by AACA folks.

The problem is not about picking fights, the problem is not fixing the problem to the best of your ability, or ignoring the problem hoping it will go away. The only thing going away now is credibility. 

[ted sweet]

if want the car judged by the numbers you to stick to single brand judging done on a lift and takes a team a day or more to check every part number etc

[MCHinson]

I hesitate to even try again but here it goes.

 

I am not a muscle car expert or a race car expert. I am an AACA judge. The original poster asked what AACA class his 1963 SD Pontiac should be shown in.

 

The correct answer is 36A. He did not ask about what class one of the very small number of so called "swiss cheese" cars would judged in. If one of those that had documented race history, were to be shown in AACA Judging,  it certainly sounds like it would be in AACA's race car class.

 

The question has been asked and answered. I hope the the original poster has not been discouraged by the argumentative posts in this discussion. His car belongs in classs 36A and I hope to see it on the showfield.

 

Before this discussion, I might have walked by the car on the showfield without giving it a second thought. Now I look forward to seeing it and learning more about it.

 

If you want to argue that this car belongs in another AACA class, write a letter to the VP of Judging.  Please stop the bickering on the Forum.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Matt Harwood...great response.  It is a most difficult task to judge the multitude of brands and do it with a wide variety of judges who have different expertise.  Certain shows they may not be there to lend their insight.

 

I do need to correct an assumption here that if a car was built by the factory for racing purposes that it would qualify for the race car classes.  It would not UNLESS it had a documented race history. Some cars escaped racing and were bought by guys who just wanted to have the fastest street machine in town...I believe there was someone with my last name who had one of these!  

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Matt Harwood...great response.  It is a most difficult task to judge the multitude of brands and do it with a wide variety of judges who have different expertise.  Certain shows they may not be there to lend their insight.

 

I do need to correct an assumption here that if a car was built by the factory for racing purposes that it would qualify for the race car classes.  It would not UNLESS it had a documented race history. Some cars escaped racing and were bought by guys who just wanted to have the fastest street machine in town...I believe there was someone with my last name who had one of these!  

Steve, don't you think in all fairness something should be done about the situation. There are two SD types of Pontiac's. The 62-63 cars were factory intended special order built race cars never intended for the street. The other is the street legal Firebird T/A SD. Don't you think it would be much clearer to differentiate the two and move the 62-63 SD race cars into the race car category where they rightfully belong. This would also end the Cloning of cars that have no right to call themselves SD cars.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Helfen, AACA race car classes are CERTIFIED.  That means that every race car entering those classes must PROVE that they have a race history.  The owner of the car submits an application to a committee of race car experts who review the data to make sure the car is the real deal.  So no. those cars cannot go into a race car class unless they actually raced and the owner can prove it so.

 

Cloning by any name is nothing new.  It has been done for decades although it now has taken a life of its own.  Naturally we ARE concerned about the phenomenon.  There are a lot of honest and reputable people building tribute cars and will sell them with full disclosure.  The issue becomes of concern with unscrupulous people and what might happen decades from now as the car passes several hands.

 

The issue for us is how to resolve the issue within the confines of our system.  So far there has been no workable solution presented to us so our definition has remained the same.  With the thousands of cars we evaluate every year it is near impossible for us to decode every serial number in a time period of only approximately 2 hours for the entire field in order to gets results tabulated, correct any issues and then set trophies up for the banquet.  I have stated on the website for years that our system is not perfect nor ideal but we constantly try to make it better but our challenges are far great than single marque clubs who generally hold one national meet a year. 

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, helfen said:

Steve, don't you think in all fairness something should be done about the situation. There are two SD types of Pontiac's. The 62-63 cars were factory intended special order built race cars never intended for the street. The other is the street legal Firebird T/A SD. Don't you think it would be much clearer to differentiate the two and move the 62-63 SD race cars into the race car category where they rightfully belong. This would also end the Cloning of cars that have no right to call themselves SD cars.

 

The problem is, if you do it for Pontiacs, you also have to do it for Mustangs, and Camaros, and Cadillac V16s with fake roadster bodies, and Model As with Model B engines, and, well, obviously it gets out of hand pretty quickly. The AACA can't be the numbers police, the magnitude of the job is just too overwhelming. It's great that the knowledge is out there to correctly identify special cars, but if you're going to apply this level of scrutiny to one type of car, you will have to apply it to all of them and that's just not possible except at the very highest levels of marque club competition where, as Ted Sweet points out, it takes a full team of experts the better part of a day to verify it completely.

 

Steve and the folks in charge of AACA judging know it's a compromise and that there are real risks to the integrity of the hobby and the club where clones are concerned, but the reality is that this kind of job is just too big for a staff of volunteers spending a few hours looking at cars on a grass field.

[61polara]

Matt,
Class 36A may be a good choice, but he must submit a letter to the VP Class Judging for
approval because that car is not on the current 36A approved list.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by 61polara (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

You may want to double check the list.  According to the 2016 Judges Guidlines, I see 1963 Pontiac Super Duty listed in 36A.

 

36a.Buick & Pontiac................. 1957-1969

Buick Grand Sport w/400cid and Stage 1

.......................................... 1967-1969

Riviera G/S w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v) ..................1964-1969

Skylark S/S 4v, w/401cid....1965-1966

Wildcat 2dr.4v, w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v)..................1964-1969

Wildcat G/S w/Y-4 option..........1966

Pontiac Bonneville 2dr. w/fuel injection 315hp

or higher ........................... 1957-1958

Bonneville & all Chief models 2dr. 3-2v,

w/370cid (330hp) ..............1958

Catalina/Ventura 2dr, 4v or 3-2v, w/389cid (345hp or higher)

..........................................1959-1962

Catalina 2dr, 4v & 3-2v w/412cid

..........................................1962-1966

SuperDuty..................................1963

2+2's ..........................................1966

Catalina 2+2, w/4v & 428cid......1967

Firebird 4v, w/400cid, includes H.O.& ram air

.............................. 1967-1969

Firebird 4v w/350cid H.O. 320hp

..........................................1968-1969

Firebird Trans Am 4v, w/400cid

includes H.O. ram air................1969

Grand Prix 4v, w/421cid includes 3-2v

..........................................1962-1966

Grand Prix 4v, w/428cid includes H.O.

.......................................... 1967-1969

GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v, w/389cid includes 3-2v

....................1964-1966 GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v,

w/400cid includes H.O. & ram air..... 1967-1969 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, MCHinson said:

You may want to double check the list.  According to the 2016 Judges Guidlines, I see 1963 Pontiac Super Duty listed in 36A.

 

36a.Buick & Pontiac................. 1957-1969

Buick Grand Sport w/400cid and Stage 1

.......................................... 1967-1969

Riviera G/S w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v) ..................1964-1969

Skylark S/S 4v, w/401cid....1965-1966

Wildcat 2dr.4v, w/425cid or larger

(includes 2-4v)..................1964-1969

Wildcat G/S w/Y-4 option..........1966

Pontiac Bonneville 2dr. w/fuel injection 315hp

or higher ........................... 1957-1958

Bonneville & all Chief models 2dr. 3-2v,

w/370cid (330hp) ..............1958

Catalina/Ventura 2dr, 4v or 3-2v, w/389cid (345hp or higher)

..........................................1959-1962

Catalina 2dr, 4v & 3-2v w/412cid

..........................................1962-1966

SuperDuty..................................1963

2+2's ..........................................1966

Catalina 2+2, w/4v & 428cid......1967

Firebird 4v, w/400cid, includes H.O.& ram air

.............................. 1967-1969

Firebird 4v w/350cid H.O. 320hp

..........................................1968-1969

Firebird Trans Am 4v, w/400cid

includes H.O. ram air................1969

Grand Prix 4v, w/421cid includes 3-2v

..........................................1962-1966

Grand Prix 4v, w/428cid includes H.O.

.......................................... 1967-1969

GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v, w/389cid includes 3-2v

....................1964-1966 GTO/LeMans 2dr, 4v,

w/400cid includes H.O. & ram air..... 1967-1969 

 Any Idea what happened to the 1962 Super Duties , and the 1964-1966 326 H-O Lemans, Tempest,  68 Lemans and Tempest 350 H-0 320hp and the 69 LeMans, Custom S and Tempest 350 H-O 330 hp. GT37's, Grand Am's.  Don't forget the 1966-69 OHC Sprint LeMans, Custom S and Tempest.

Edited April 21, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

31 minutes ago, helfen said:

 Any Idea what happened to the 1962 Super Duties , and the 68 Lemans 350 H-0 320hp and the 69 LeMans 350 H-O 330 hp. ??

Perhaps nobody has asked to have those cars added to the class. 

To understand this in context, you need to read the description of Class 36, found just before the list of cars in class 36a:

"36. FACTORY HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLES The Factory High Performance class has been developed especially for performance oriented domestic vehicles, from their beginnings in the 1950’s thru their “heyday” of the late 60’s and early 70’s and on. Eligibility for vehicles in this category is evaluated on a case by case basis, taking into consideration individual merits such as weight to horsepower ratio, the manufacturer’s actual intent, and the era in which the vehicle was built. These are just a few of the qualifying points of consideration. This class is a work in progress and will continue to develop over time. Applications for additional vehicles to be added to the existing list of accepted vehicles must be submitted in writing, along with any accompanying factory documentation, to the VP Judging for review by the Specified Class Committee (SCC), 4-18 that will make a recommendation to the Judging Committee. The name and address of the VP Judging can be found in each issue of the “Antique Automobile”. Always check AACA Headquarters for the most current listing of accepted vehicles in this class. NOTE: “v” refers to carburetor size/barrels"

 

 

[Robert Street]

At the Virginia Beach show last year I transported and prepared a 1962 SD for a friend.  The car is street tagged not driven though and was driven unto the show field by me into 36A. Oh, it is a correct PHS car.  Even got a first Junior for it.  The comment someone made about looking for these on the field was accurate as most folks walked by it without paying attention but the one's who did know were impressed

Robert

[61polara]

Matt,

You are correct.  It is listed in 36a.  Must have had a senior moment when looking at the current list.

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Some historical perspective on Class 36A.  When the class was first approved a committee and some sub-committees were formed to figure out what belonged in these classes.  A LOT of hard work was done and individual marque clubs were contacted as to what they believed constituted a high performance car.  The club new full well that additions to these lists would be made in the future as it was a pretty impossible task to get it right immediately.  Case in point, two cars will be reviewed by the Class Judging Committee in Auburn.  On the surface, they both seem to qualify but no one in years brought these cars up.

 

The good news is that when resented a logical case for inclusion the committee acts upon it.  In some cases it has to wait until the following year to make it into the judging guidelines but the committee does meet at least three times a year and approves things as appropriate. 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Some historical perspective on Class 36A.  When the class was first approved a committee and some sub-committees were formed to figure out what belonged in these classes.  A LOT of hard work was done and individual marque clubs were contacted as to what they believed constituted a high performance car.  The club new full well that additions to these lists would be made in the future as it was a pretty impossible task to get it right immediately.  Case in point, two cars will be reviewed by the Class Judging Committee in Auburn.  On the surface, they both seem to qualify but no one in years brought these cars up.

 

The good news is that when resented a logical case for inclusion the committee acts upon it.  In some cases it has to wait until the following year to make it into the judging guidelines but the committee does meet at least three times a year and approves things as appropriate. 

I think that explains the comment Matt made when he said " Perhaps nobody has asked to have those cars added to the class. "

 I think the question should be asked is how / why  Super Duty Pontiac race cars made it into this class instead of the race class?   

[MCHinson]

On 4/20/2016 at 6:06 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Helfen, AACA race car classes are CERTIFIED.  That means that every race car entering those classes must PROVE that they have a race history.  The owner of the car submits an application to a committee of race car experts who review the data to make sure the car is the real deal.  So no. those cars cannot go into a race car class unless they actually raced and the owner can prove it so.

You may want to read Steve's earlier comment again as well as the explanation of class 36 that I posted earlier.

If an individual one of these cars had actual race history, an owner could ask to have that car added to the race car class. One that had no history of use as a race car would be ineligible for the AACA's race car class and would be eligible for Class 36a, as has been stated previously in this discussion.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

You may want to read Steve's earlier comment again as well as the explanation of class 36 that I posted earlier.

If an individual one of these cars had actual race history, an owner could ask to have that car added to the race car class. One that had no history of use as a race car would be ineligible for the AACA's race car class and would be eligible for Class 36a, as has been stated previously in this discussion.

I did read Steve's comment. So I understand that with the multitude of different cars that AACA can't know everything. I understand that a 1963 Pontiac with a 267 hp. A/T could be converted to a 4speed Tri-Power car for AACA showing purposes because you could order one that way if you wanted. But those cars are regular production cars.

If you would say the 62-63 SD have to be in the race car class, this would mean not only the cars are put in their rightful class, but they would have to produce pedigree  ( no extra work on AACA's part ).  Producing pedigree would help eliminate cloning. I don't think cloned cars are the objective especially when these cars can demand six figures. We have to remember these cars were built as race cars and not to be driven on the street and they are different than the 63 267 hp automatic car I mentioned above. Most dealers not only didn't know how to order one of these cars, they didn't even know they existed.

[MCHinson]

I am trying to understand your point. The best that I understand your point is you don't think that a 1963 Super Duty Pontiac should be in any class other than a race car class. To be accepted into AACA's race car class requires each particular car to have documented race history.

 

If is was possible for someone to order a 1963 Super Duty Pontiac, then AACA needs to have a class to judge it in.

 

If one of these cars was ordered and was not actually used as a race car, what class should AACA put it in? Without documented race history, it would not be eligible for AACA's race car class. If not 36a, what other AACA class would you think it should belong in? 

[Matt Harwood]

For the purposes of classification in the AACA, I don't think it matters how the factory intended them to be used, it matters how they were sold. And it appears that the Super Duty cars were sold as "production" cars through regular dealer channels and purchased by guys who may or may not have bought them to go racing. Some guys wanted the fastest street car around and some did race, and as race cars, they would belong in the race car class. If we take the SDs out of class 36A, do they get left out of the AACA completely because most don't have race history and are therefore not eligible for the race car class?

 

I don't think the classification committee is forcing all L88 Corvettes into the race class, are they? Shelby Cobras? Bugatti Type 35s? Max Wedge Mopars? All cars intended for racing but sold to the general public, who used them in a variety of ways, one of which might have been racing. If you had the money and knew how to place the order, they would give you a race car. The factory didn't particularly care what you were going to do with it.

 

Yes, the SDs were intended to be race cars. They were built to be race cars. But if a car never raced, it doesn't have history, and as such, it doesn't belong in a class with race cars with histories. It's the same reason they don't put Parnelli Jones's restored 1970 Boss 302 Trans-Am racer into the production Mustang class, even though it is technically a production car...

 

[joe_padavano]

On 4/22/2016 at 7:01 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, the SDs were intended to be race cars. They were built to be race cars. But if a car never raced, it doesn't have history, and as such, it doesn't belong in a class with race cars with histories. It's the same reason they don't put Parnelli Jones's restored 1970 Boss 302 Trans-Am racer into the production Mustang class, even though it is technically a production car...

 

 

OK, but let me throw a little gasoline on that fire... 

 

Within the last 5-10 years, the three Detroit manufacturers have sold factory-built race cars that are NOT street-legal and do not carry a legal VIN.  These are cars like the 2013-2016 COPO Camaro, the 2008-2016 Mustang Cobra Jet, and the 2015-2015 Challenger Drag Pack. None of these cars carry emissions equipment and thus cannot ever be legally titled and registered for street use, but they are factory-built race cars.  I realize most readers here couldn't care less about "new" cars, but they will eventually be 25 years old.  What happens then?  Several of the Cobra Jets were bought by collectors and immediately put into storage as an investment (yes, I hope they loose money on that).  Those cars will not have a racing history.

 

Discuss among yourselves... 

Edited April 27, 2016 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

The only good answer that I have for that is that the Judging Guidelines and Judging System have evolved over the years. This process will continue. Either the Guidelines will evolve in the next 25 years to handle that sort of situation or else those cars won't be judged in AACA in 25 years.