What to do to a Buick Straight Eight to make it LAST, and LAST

[smithbrother]

I have often wondered what today's engineers would do to a Buick Straight Eight to make it LAST, and LAST.

 

I drive as my driver a 14 year old car, 200,000. miles, original SPARK PLUGS, PLUG WIRES, IGNITION, complete EXHAUST, BRAKES TWICE, TIRES 5 SETS, and VALVES not touched.  

 

If I was in charge of making a Straight Eight LAST and LAST, the first change would be, HEADS, IGNITION, INJECTION, BALANCED to days standards, and LIGHTER RODS, & PISTONS.

 

There are tons of cars available today that will deliver 250,000 - 500,000 miles with proper care, WHAT do you think a NEW Buick Straight Eight would produce?

 

What would you do as an engineer???

 

Just wondering,

 

Dale in Indy

 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

The tighter tolerances of today's machining would increase longevity , using the previous engineering

[smithbrother]

YES, blue printing as we used to call it would be a big help.

Dale in Indy

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

re design the head for the 320 as the 53 263 head was re-designed. 

That and the new pistons were good for 5 more horsepower

[SpecialEducation]

Chain driven overhead cam(s) with full rollers. Basically 2 Ecotecs butted together. 260k on mine and it still has the original water pump...

[smithbrother]

But, how many miles has anyone gotten out of a Straight Eight Buick, with little to no repairs, service only.

 

I'm NOT bad mouthing the Buick, just wonder how long one would last with today's engineering.

 

Dale in Indy

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Modern oil and oil filters, full flow not bypass would increase life by a great amount. Add that to better bearing materials, lighter engine components and a better coolant flow to the rear block and head and with tighter tolerances for clearance and I would not be at all suprised if a 320 could go 150-200K easy.

R

[JohnD1956]

They only thing stopping many from achieving those mileage figures is the gas mileage. If the st 8 got 27-30 mpg people would drive them more. Add to that some economical a/c system and people would drive them further.

[DonMicheletti]

The better fuel distribution and control of fuel injection on modern cars has a lot to do with engine longevity. Much better than carburation.

[Restorer32]

Many Flxible buses were fitted with Buick Straight 8s back in the day. I suspect many of those must have accumulated some pretty impressive miles.

[The Old Guy]

I installed a 53 engine in my 40 Super ,and have since driven it over 120,000 miles , and it still runs GREAT !!

Edited January 26, 2016 by The Old Guy (see edit history)

[jackofalltrades70]

They only thing stopping many from achieving those mileage figures is the gas mileage. If the st 8 got 27-30 mpg people would drive them more. Add to that some economical a/c system and people would drive them further.

Let the top down and roll.......

[NTX5467]

(Speaking in generalities, as I'm not that "checked-out" on Buick I-8 motors, but have been around our '51 GMC I-6s)

 

When GM designed the LS series motor, to replace the generations of the original small block Chevy V-8, one of their orientations was to get friction "out" of the motor.  This meant, for example, getting the valve lifters' centerline being at 90 degrees to the camshaft lobes, rather than at the pre-existing angle.  Same with the Chrysler 5.9L Race blocks, which did the same thing a few years earlier.  Combine that with the "coated skirt" pistons used in almost every engine, currently, would be two significant areas of friction reduction with little production cost.  Of course, adding a roller-lifter camshaft and roller rocker arms would compliment these things.

 

Finding ways to get the rotational mass "down" would help throttle response and increase fuel efficiency, too.  Lighter-weight pistons, not shortening the connecting rods (although lightening them with modern engineering orientations, to maintain the dwell time at TDC and keep the side loads on the cylinder walls as low as possible.

 

Keeping bearing clearances toward the minimum and using synthetic motor oils (5W-30 max) would help things, too.  As would the thinner piston rings of modern times.  Perhaps, even an aluminum block with cross-bolted main caps!!  Keeping the bottom end of the motor in "solid and stable" condition, combined with modern computerized machining, should provide the crankshaft a set of perfectly-aligned main bearings in which to spin freely.  With better "balancing" available in modern times, everything should work very well, down there.

 

Perhaps, to ensure the crankshaft received great oil volume at ALL bearings, a "main saddle" might be employed, as a non-cast-in-place structure so that each would be assembled to the base block (at the assembly plant) and not need the long drill bit to machine the main oil gallery for the main bearings' oil.  Just bolt them into the block, side by side, epoxied/bonded in place, then line bore/hone the main bearing saddles/caps as normal.

 

In order to ensure sufficient water flow to the rear of the block, two electric-drive water pumps could supply the coolant to the block, one for the front, one for the rear.  ONLY thing is that the electric water pumps would need more than the alleged 50K mile service life as many BMWs seem to have!  But aux water pumps have been around for many years (think "Catera").

 

Cylinder head would need to be aluminum, too, BUT would not necessarily need to be OHC or similar.  The main reason, in more modern times, for OHC is the more accurate valve timing which can allow better emissions control.  But pushrod engines are still around (think Corvette and Viper) and can allow those cars to have lower hood lines as a result.  OHC and DOHC engines are TALL, due to the additional stuff under their valve covers.

 

IF we add a fully-electronic ignition control, including "coil on plug", then we can have a cross-flow cylinder head and have some interesting stainless steel exhaust manifold and tuning to the mix.  On the intake side, a round "beer barrel" sort of intake can allow for longer intake runners, plus a variable-length tuning device, too, if needed.  This can then allow each cylinder to have the same length of manifold ports, to combine with electronic port fuel injection for more optimized efficiency and still have strong torque output.

 

In the head casting itself, using some of the same technology as in the current Corvette base engine will round-out the improved combustion dynamics of the "improved Buick I-8".

 

I would hope the torque curve for this motor would be "high and flat", which would move the vehicle effortlessly.  But to ensure that and decreased cruise rpms (and emissions), either the GM 6-speed or 8-speed automatics would be an integral part of the powertrain combination.  No doubt, it could loaf easily at 1700rpm in OD at 70mph and deliver 25+mpg.

 

One thing I did not mention was "VVT".  A main reason for VVT is that this technology can decrease the need for an EGR system, which is one reason the 2nd-Gen S-trucks had inline 5 and 6s in them (only needs one of this or that, rather than two on a V-type motor).

 

Of course, the vehicle would need to be a 12V vehicle.  As noted, the oil filtration system would need to be "full-flow", too.  With the more precise and computerized engine machining of modern times, better synthetic oils, better oil filters, and total engine "sealing" from outside environmental situations, this improved Buick I-8 should "last forever" with 5000K mile oil and filter changes.

 

That's probably more than was desired, though.

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

In the later 1960s, when Clifford Research was doing their deal on the modernized 6s of that time (Chevy 230/250, for example, which utilized several small block V-8 internal parts) with intake manifolds,headers, camshafts, and such . . . I wondered why USA manufacturers didn't do something like Jaguar and other European makers did with their inline motors?  That was before I knew about the European vehicle taxes on engine sizes and such.

 

Other than putting the lighter-weight pistons, rods, and lessened-weight crankshaft mentioned above, adding the electronics of ignition and fuel injection would be necessary.  THIS is where some fabrication and "invention" would be needed.  A two-section intake manifold, fed by two 1st-Gen Chrysler 3.5L throttle bodies could be built, letting the runner lengths be more even than for the existing log intake manifold.  Then add a Tri-Y header contraption to help the air flow through the motor.  This would make the intake/exhaust ports the limiting factor for total air flow.  Getting the fuel injectors (in the intake manifold ports) "targeted" correctly might take some CAD programs to ensure it was pretty close to what it needs to be.

 

Bentsens has some transmission adapters that will fit the Buick I-8 to use modern automatics.  Possibly a more modern rear axle and coil spring suspension system, too??

 

BUT even with the added power and efficiency of the motor re-design/modifications, the CHASSIS would still need to be addressed to ensure it rolls easily with decreased drag.  Might even need some underbody "belly pans" to decrease wind resistance down there, too.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Let the top down and roll.......

My plan exactly

R

[smithbrother]

So you put a 53 in your 40, and have driven it 129,000.

Wondering, how many spark plug changes, points, etc. also exhaust, brakes, carb work, valve jobs?

Just wondering,

Dale in Indy

[The Old Guy]

3 sets of plugs  and points

i have a 39 century carb on it that has been worked on considerably

it has had 2 stock exhaust systems and is now running dual exhausts using the manifolds from a 41 .( I dont like the dual carbs , and the big carb seems to run as well. 

I am still running the original valves.

[michel88]

NTX5467, your posts 13 & 14 were really good and informative!

Edited January 27, 2016 by michel88 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Chain driven overhead cam(s) with full rollers. Basically 2 Ecotecs butted together. 260k on mine and it still has the original water pump...

 

The reason water pumps last so long today is because of the serpentine belts have a constant calibrated tension on the belt.  The newer coolant also helps. 

 

No more "V" belt tightening with a crow bar to keep the belt from squealing.

[old-tank]

Ok, lets put in fuel injection, computer controls, overdrive transmission, better rear gears... 

The current Tahoe is about the same size as the Buicks with straight eights,a nd is about as boxy, so we should expected similar driveability  and economy (it takes a certain amount of energy to move 2+ tons) but not the same power.  The straight eight would last longer since it will seldom see 2000 rpm vs 3000+.and of course the better contemporary oils and cleaner burning fuel.

[SpecialEducation]

The reason water pumps last so long today is because of the serpentine belts have a constant calibrated tension on the belt.  The newer coolant also helps. 

 

No more "V" belt tightening with a crow bar to keep the belt from squealing.

True story... I support an aircraft model that is notorious for air conditioning compressor drive failures.  The root of the problem is mechanics over-tightening the belt because they don't believe the published specification for belt tension.

 

The Ecotec's water pump isn't even visible from the outside of the engine as it's chain driven.  Looks like a terrible pain to replace - glad I've never had to! 

[SpecialEducation]

Who wants to call GM and talk them into adding 2 more cylenders to the Vortec I-6?

 

I've thought it would be fun to build a hot rod '50 sedanette.  I was thinking a big Wildcat under the hood, but a modern straight 8 would be good, too!

Edited January 27, 2016 by SpecialEducation (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

My machine shop operative noted once that he could tell if the owner of an engine he'd taken apart for a rebuild had "tight-belted" it, as the lower half of the front main bearing set would be "new", with the wear on the upper half only.

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

Fuel injection and overdrive have been the greatest contributors to the high mileage cars that are common today. Just eliminating the 5 minutes of washing the cylinder walls down with fuel, IF the choke was working, contributed a lot.

 

Traditionally, longevity was never a real issue with Buicks, just old stiffs bought them anyway. I stopped in at the Social Security Office the other day and the woman asked my age "I'll be 68 in September" I said. "Do you own a Buick?" she asked. "Yeah, three." She smiled and seemed at ease with the world.

Bernie

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Fuel injection and overdrive have been the greatest contributors to the high mileage cars that are common today. Just eliminating the 5 minutes of washing the cylinder walls down with fuel, IF the choke was working, contributed a lot.

 

Traditionally, longevity was never a real issue with Buicks, just old stiffs bought them anyway. I stopped in at the Social Security Office the other day and the woman asked my age "I'll be 68 in September" I said. "Do you own a Buick?" she asked. "Yeah, three." She smiled and seemed at ease with the world.

Bernie

 

  Youngster!!

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

I stopped in at the Social Security Office the other day and the woman asked my age "I'll be 68 in September" I said. "Do you own a Buick?" she asked. "Yeah, three." She smiled and seemed at ease with the world.

Bernie

 

Such demographic "profiling"!!!

 

Several years ago, when my aunt still had her Buick (before she stopped driving), her grandson took it to the store to get something.  When he came back, he asked her why all of the older ladies in her town seemed to have white Buicks?   My answer might be "Because when they went to get a new Buick, they were out of silver ones".  When she decided to stop driving and sell the car, her daughter took it to their mechanic to sell.  It sold quickly!

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

If you are really good at profiling on a first glance, you could be a Buick owner. AND they should recognize you pretty quickly.

 

On the longevity, Buick straight Eights tend to spend long periods of time in unplanned storage. Decades go by quickly. Being laid up without a fresh oil change is one of the big issues. The acids in the oil from natural combustion products will etch the bearing surfaces about .0005". It doesn't sound like much but it can take a .0025 clearance to .003 and that won't make your fresh out of storage Buick too happy. If you buy one run it a few miles and at least Plastigage it. Tighten the bottom end up before it rattles. Then you are good.

 

Don't pull a head and just do a valve job if you get some sticky stems. Tightening the top end will increase blow by on worn rings and make it puff out the road draft tube as well as pound those old lower end bearings.

 

The best thing to make one last is to take at least one 15 mile round trip every week. Just doing that will assure the car will always perform well.... and always maintain it's highest value.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

I might say "30-50 miles" so that all of the residual moisture (from ambient temperature changes) can get fully cooked out of the oil and inner engine surfaces.  Then, upon return, let it idle a few minutes prior to stopping the motor (as you reflect on how good it felt and ran) and leaving the hood open for it to convection cool to ambient temperature.

 

There's a psychological aspect to leaving the hood open, too.  It'll make it easier to piddle around and to check things as time progresses.  And, of course, what auto enthusiast doesn't always want to "look under the hood"?  Of course, too, you'll need a garage to do that in (leave the hood open) for security concerns.

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

15 miles is a good ride. The cooling system comes up to temperature as does the engine oil, transmission, and rear end juices.Don't forget, almost any suggestion is "too" some thing. Too hard, too long, too short, too some damned thing. And, if you have more than one car it can get too time consuming. The average speed of driving is about 35 MPH no matter what the conditions. So this is a half hour drive. I'm writing from personal experience. None is speculation.

 

If a person has to charge their battery or jump a car every week to drive it, the problem will be fixed soon. If the car is driven 15 miles there is a good chance you will have to use the brakes harder than usual for some reason. That pussy footing gentle pressure and firm grip on the jerking steering wheel won't be tolerated long. The brakes will get fixed. Drive it 15 miles and, if it overheats for any reason, it will on your ride. It will get fixed.

 

A car that sits and does nothing doesn't have to steer, start, or stop very well.

 

Just drive the thing and avoid some sort of ritual. Sitting is the killer.

 

The last part about leaving the hood open, the security, and needing a garage reminded me of a story the kids liked :

 

Well, I heading over to the boat launch by the Erie Canal with my '60. It's 7 miles away and I like taking a walk along the tow path.

It's gonna be simple.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

I understand your orientation.  The scenario you describe would indicate the difference between "run time while driving" and "driving distance".  These things can also depend upon the locale of the vehicle's residence.

 

Back in the middle 1980s, I had the opportunity to drive a recently-new Corvette for a technician in our shop.  In the digital instrument cluster, it had the capabilities of having a "coolant" readout and an "oil temperature" readout.  From a cold start on the spring day, the coolant temp came up as most all of the GM V-8s did back then.  Then I switched to the "oil temp" reading.  Interestingly, it took about 10 miles of 55mph Interstate driving for the oil temperature to match the coolant temperature.  Cruise rpm with the THM700 transmission in OD was about 1500rpm at that road speed.  I don't recall being concerned with the atf temperature, but suspect that as most atf coolers are in a radiator tank, they might come up to coolant temp a little quicker.  Key thing is that as soon as "the water gets hot", the cast iron in the engine is NOT at that temperature until a time later.  Same for the transmission, too.  The engine oil is in more contact with the outer layers of the surfaces the coolant touches, so it will heat up slower and later than the coolant does.

 

As where I'm at has some older highways and Interstates with access roads, it's not a long distance to a higher-speed venue than a "country lane" or "city driving".

 

Now, although when we talk of "driving" enough to "keep one up", there's another item that is rarely considered . . . TIRES.  They, too, need to be run long enough for them to heat up and "cook out" any accumulated moisture which might have accumulated inside of the tire's carcass "cords".  And you might also include the engine's rubber hoses and fan belts.  I suspect that few people (outside of a NASCAR race team) might know how many miles of driving it takes for the rear axle fluid to reach optimum operational temperature.

 

These can be very variable situations with respect to the particular vehicle's production model year, where it "lives", and (as mentioned) available "driver time".

 

NTX5467