Studebaker vs. Chevrolet question

[Guest]

and "the engine does not care whose name is on the valve covers".

But the people who own Pontiac's and Oldsmobile's do.

 

Why didn't Pontiac tool up for something new, well they did in 1963 and we know what Cole did about that, plus by the early 70's The heads of the divisions already knew that commonality of engines was just around the corner, transmissions having been done in 1965, and bodies starting in 1959. look at today to see where all that lead to. 

[cheezestaak2000]

i'm still amazed at how many people think the 327 AMC engine is a chevy

[Guest]

i'm still amazed at how many people think the 327 AMC engine is a chevy

Or that Packard had a 327 straight eight

[padgett]

Don't forget, 66 Pontiacs had Ford transmissions.

[Guest]

And Lincoln's first automatic was GM's HydraMatic.

[nzcarnerd]

Don't forget, 66 Pontiacs had Ford transmissions.

I presume you are referring to the Ford manual trans.  I don't know how many years they were used but the certainly did some in 1963, both three and four speed, along with the BW T10 and the Saginaw three speed.  The numbers must have been quite small.  I guess they sent a truck load over to the Pontiac factory every few months - or maybe only once a year?

[8E45E]

But the people who own Pontiac's and Oldsmobile's do.

 

Why didn't Pontiac tool up for something new, well they did in 1963 and we know what Cole did about that, plus by the early 70's The heads of the divisions already knew that commonality of engines was just around the corner, transmissions having been done in 1965, and bodies starting in 1959. look at today to see where all that lead to. 

GM should have learned from what became England's giant albatross: British Motor Corporation/British Leyand. 

 

In 1964, BMC had 40% of their domestic market share, in addition to assembly plants in Australia, South Africa, etc., and a very strong presence in North America and continental Europe.  By 2005, when they filed for bankruptcy, or 'Administration', they had a paltry .02% of their home market, and struggled elsewhere in the world. 

 

Craig

[D Yaros]

But the people who own Pontiac's and Oldsmobile's do.

 

Back in the prior century GM had to shell out more than a few bucks to Oldsmobile buyers who, much to their surprise, found Chevrolet engines under the hood of their Olds.  GM got wise and subsequently put all GM buyers on notice that generic engines were going to be de rigueur going forward.

[Guest]

GM should have learned from what became England's giant albatross: British Motor Corporation/British Leyand. 

 

In 1964, BMC had 40% of their domestic market share, in addition to assembly plants in Australia, South Africa, etc., and a very strong presence in North America and continental Europe.  By 2005, when they filed for bankruptcy, or 'Administration', they had a paltry .02% of their home market, and struggled elsewhere in the world. 

 

Craig

Seems to me BMC did that to themselves. In Pontiac's case Pontiac knew what to do, but it was the corporation that didn't.

A old saying at Pontiac was " If they ( meaning the corporation) would just LEAVE US ALONE!

[Guest]

Back in the prior century GM had to shell out more than a few bucks to Oldsmobile buyers who, much to their surprise, found Chevrolet engines under the hood of their Olds.  GM got wise and subsequently put all GM buyers on notice that generic engines were going to be de rigueur going forward.

It was not just Olds, it was Pontiac Buick and Cadillac.

[8E45E]

Seems to me BMC did that to themselves. In Pontiac's case Pontiac knew what to do, but it was the corporation that didn't.

A old saying at Pontiac was " If they ( meaning the corporation) would just LEAVE US ALONE!

It was the same at BL in the 1970's with former Austin/MG/Morris management fighting against Triumph management which proved disastrous in the end, where by 1975 BL ended up being owned by the government.  Say?  Didn't that happen to GM in 2009?  A few years before that, when GM was going down the same path, I stated on several forums doing a case-study on the failure of BMC/British Leyland should have been every GM executive's homework assignment.

 

Craig

[Guest]

It was the same at BL in the 1970's with former Austin/MG/Morris management fighting against Triumph management which proved disastrous in the end, where by 1975 BL ended up being owned by the government.  Say?  Didn't that happen to GM in 2009?  A few years before that, when GM was going down the same path, I stated on several forums doing a case-study on the failure of BMC/British Leyland should have been every GM executive's homework assignment.

 

Craig

You have to take into consideration that most Pontiac fans don't consider any Pontiac built after 1982 to be a Pontiac. They are just corporate cars with a Pontiac badge. Whatever comes after that makes no difference.

[8E45E]

You have to take into consideration that most Pontiac fans don't consider any Pontiac built after 1982 to be a Pontiac. They are just corporate cars with a Pontiac badge. Whatever comes after that makes no difference.

Pontiac became 'corporate' in Canada starting right after the war, with a lower, Chevrolet-based line; Grand Parisienne, Parisienne, Laurentian, Strato Chief, in the B-body full size line, and expanded with the Chevy II and Chevelle  Acadian and Beaumont in the Y and A body line in the early 1960's.

 

Craig 

[Guest]

Pontiac became 'corporate' in Canada starting right after the war, with a lower, Chevrolet-based line; Grand Parisienne, Parisienne, Laurentian, Strato Chief, in the B-body full size line, and expanded with the Chevy II and Chevelle  Acadian and Beaumont in the Y and A body line in the early 1960's.

 

Craig

That's absolutely correct and most Pontiac people here in the U.S.A. don't consider Canadian Pontiac's real Pontiac's. They consider them Chebbies.

[padgett]

a ) in the '60s, the only passenger car three speed manual GM had was the light duty Saginaw and it would not hold up to the torque of a 389 or 421. Since Pontiac did not plan to sell enough to justify tooling up a three speed (their future was Automagics and Muncie 4-speeds) they bought Ford top-loader three speeds (didn't say ALL Pontiac trannys were Fords).

b ) The "corporate V8" issue really was a product of the mid-70s. Frankly I always liked the Olds 350 better than the Buick or Pontiac. By '78 it was a done deal and the 3.8/3800 was the six cyl and the SBC the small V8. Pontiac did contribute the Iron Duke but the Olds Quad-4 was a better engine. We won't talk about the Olds diesel disaster.

c ) The best British cars of the period had the Buick V8 (Rover, Triumph, MG, Morgan).

[Guest]

a ) in the '60s, the only passenger car three speed manual GM had was the light duty Saginaw and it would not hold up to the torque of a 389 or 421. Since Pontiac did not plan to sell enough to justify tooling up a three speed (their future was Automagics and Muncie 4-speeds) they bought Ford top-loader three speeds (didn't say ALL Pontiac trannys were Fords).

b ) The "corporate V8" issue really was a product of the mid-70s. Frankly I always liked the Olds 350 better than the Buick or Pontiac. By '78 it was a done deal and the 3.8/3800 was the six cyl and the SBC the small V8. Pontiac did contribute the Iron Duke but the Olds Quad-4 was a better engine. We won't talk about the Olds diesel disaster.

c ) The best British cars of the period had the Buick V8 (Rover, Triumph, MG, Morgan).

You are incorrect.

In 1960-4 you could order three types of manual transmissions from Pontiac. Saginaw 3 speed ( standard equipment ) The heavy duty BW T-85 3 speed and the BW T10 4 speed.

In 1957-64 you could order three types of manual transmissions from Chevrolet. Saginaw 3 speed ( standard equipment )The heavy duty BW T-85 three speed and the BW T-10 four speed. The T-10 could be ordered on any 1957 1/2 Corvette. In 1959 the T-10 could be ordered on any Chevrolet.

Pontiac and Chevrolet had many drag racing and NASCAR victories using the BW T-85 and the BW T-10.

If you bought a 1960 Super Duty Pontiac and didn't specify a transmission you got a BW T-85.

Edited February 5, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[padgett]

Then the Ford mustabin used from 65 or 66-up. Is "in the 60's". As for the Saginaw, that was for the little cars, not the real Pontiacs except maybe Canadian. Had a 68 Firebird with OHC-6 and Saginaw three speed on the floor. Was enough. Blew a lot of Saginaw four-speeds with the V8 dual-quad Sunbird, usually reverse. Lots of 7 1/2" posi rears also (were plentiful, even had one in my Astre Wagon) & the pin always broke making disassembly a bear. Fun daze.

 

[Studemax]

All this yak about bowtie stuff, and yet no one has pointed out the biggest leap to a wrong conclusion about Studebaker 289's..... That they were made by Ford. I hear that one all the time.... However, Studebaker had a 289 ten years before the Blue Oval gang marketed a 289, and anyone with working vision could see the differences between a Stude 289 and a Ford 289 if they were placed side by side.  For one thing, the Ford distributor is in front - Stude in back. Stude motor is much bigger (they were heavy SOB's). Also, Stude exhaust had the middle ports siamesed - ala Ford flathead and Packard 352 V8 (another Ford misconception). There are other visual differences - I just hit the highlights.

[padgett]

Well I never saw a Golden Hawk I didn't like (except for automagics).

[Guest]

Then the Ford mustabin used from 65 or 66-up. Is "in the 60's". As for the Saginaw, that was for the little cars, not the real Pontiacs except maybe Canadian. Had a 68 Firebird with OHC-6 and Saginaw three speed on the floor. Was enough. Blew a lot of Saginaw four-speeds with the V8 dual-quad Sunbird, usually reverse. Lots of 7 1/2" posi rears also (were plentiful, even had one in my Astre Wagon) & the pin always broke making disassembly a bear. Fun daze.

 

Year UPC Pontiac 3-speed Transmissions Year UPC Pontiac (GM) 4-speed Transmissions

1936-55 M11 Buick Light-Duty 1960-64 M20 Borg-Warner Early T10 Wide Ratio – Released Jan 1960

1956-57 M13 Buick Heavy-Duty 1963-64 M21 Borg-Warner Early T10 Close Ratio

1958-64 M11 Early Muncie Light-Duty 1964-71 M20 Muncie Wide Ratio (1st Design -Late '64)

M13 Borg-Warner T85 Heavy-Duty M21 Muncie Close Ratio (1st Design - Late'64)

1964-70 M13 Ford Heavy Duty Top Loader (Late '64) 1968-72 M22 Muncie Close Ratio "Rock Crusher" Heavy Duty

1973-74 M20 Saginaw iron case

M22 Borg-Warner Super T10 iron case

Edited February 5, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

An extra bit to add to the Studebaker/Cadillac part of this discussion. A recently departed old friend and dedicated Studebaker fan, always maintained that when he worked in South Bend in the late 40,' as a technical writer, there was a Cadillac engine prominently positioned in his area where it could be examined and evaluated by engineering. While the procedure is certainly not unique in automobile engineering, there are simply too many similarities in the two engines to ignore and shrug off as mere happenstance. There have also been unsubstantiated rumors that Cadillac/GM brought suit against Studebaker for patent infringement. The suit was supposedly settled out of court. I don't know about the suit part of it.

 

Because of Studebakers successes it's fuel efficient Champion, fuel efficiency became what the company believed would be their recipe for success after the War. Engineering believed that high octane fuel was a foregone conclusion. To this end they engineered designed and built their new generation V8 to a standard which they believed would be sustainable with a compression ratio as high as 12 or 13 to 1. Overhead camming of the engine was also on the table for the future. Less regard to given to enlarging the engine bore. Guess we know how all of that went!  

 

To be among the last independents standing, is a testament to Studebaker's doing a lot of things right. From 1852-1966, first as a wagon builder, the company worked hard to set themselves apart from the crowd. There was little room for error, and the company was not perfect in it's last years. The competition from the Big Three and American motors finally just left them behind.

[8E45E]

Overhead camming of the engine was also on the table for the future. 

Yes, and a DOHC engine was made, but not by the factory: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?58404-Gorgeous-1952-Studebaker-DOHC-V8

 

Craig